Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Stigius 09-15-04, 04:13 PM	First, short info whom I mean by 'background folk'. Not the important NPCs, enemies and allies whom the PCs encounter - these NPCs of course DO advance, though often at slower pace than the player characters. Nor the random commoners; even if particular Joe the peasant has advanced from Commoner 1 to Commoner 2, his advancement has no impact on the game play. But imagine the following situation: The PCs (say, level 3 at the time) arrive for the very first time at the Duke's realm. The Dm states that the Duke's soldiers are for most part 1lvl fighters, with the elite ones being level 2, and very few officers and champions being 5th - 7th. Three years pass. The PCs have fought innumerable foes, won hundreds of encounters, saved half the world and are now level 18. The Duke's soldiers have fought an orc invasion, undead infestation and some minor fiends intruders, not to mention the common bandits in the meantime. The Duke cares for his soldiers, so the casualties have been few (good strategy, clerics and paladins in the army, whatever). The soldiers are mostly the same folks who had been there 3 years ago. What level are they now? I see here two ways of thinking: 1. The soldiers are still common soldiers. When statting a common soldier, the DM does not think about his past. Common level for common soldier is 1, the exceptional may rise above. 2. The DM calculates what a typical Duke's soldier has fought during previous three years and advances him accordingly, applying more or less the same to all his fellows. The soldiers are now probably fighters level 6 or 7 I like the second way of reasoning far more. Definitely it makes more sense for the background NPCs to advance like everybody else. But of late I have seen a not-that-good side of this reasoning. Namely, an army where every soldier was Ftr 10, with veterans being level 15. This example was rather ridiculous, but even an army consisting of level 6 fighters may lead to problems. To make it work, one may have to rewrite a large part of the previously assumed world building, as the power level of the setting increases. This (together with CR adjustments as the PCs progress) leads to the thing which we used to call 'the growing wolves syndrome'. The name was born when the party (me being a player too) wandered in a forest for a looong time. When we started, we encountered standard wolves, later worgs, dire wolves, advanced dire wolves, yet more advanced dire wolves... You see the point. So should the world advance with the PCs? I'm a great fan of the answer 'YES!', but see the dangers here too, and would like to get others opinions.
TheDoomBringer 09-15-04, 04:19 PM	Depends on how you want to think about it. I would say as a person goes through life, they acculumate experience and gain levels (slowly if non-adventurer). No reason not to have guards level up over time, or even have commoners get higher in level (a very good farmer who fends goblins off by himself would be like level 4+ or so). A commoner who does menial tasks and does not get into threatening situations, however, will probably stay at level 1 all his life. Experts will level up as they improve in their skills. edit: I would say the soldiers would have gone from say level 1 to about 4, depending on how long the war was. It will vary as well, since the reserve units will probably fight less, so they will be lower level. A stand out soldier would maybe be up to level 6 or higher. The other thing to consider is that not all soldiers started at level 1 for the war.
Sucineri 09-15-04, 04:29 PM	The PCs (say, level 3 at the time) arrive for the very first time at the Duke's realm. The Dm states that the Duke's soldiers are for most part 1lvl fighters, with the elite ones being level 2, and very few officers and champions being 5th - 7th... ...The Duke's soldiers have fought an orc invasion, undead infestation and some minor fiends intruders, not to mention the common bandits in the meantime. The Duke cares for his soldiers, so the casualties have been few (good strategy, clerics and paladins in the army, whatever). The soldiers are mostly the same folks who had been there 3 years ago. What level are they now? Well..I would say more people joined the military from peasant to soldier..I would make all the soldiers at the time be elite soldiers..all the elite soldiers be champions..and have some of the champions be upto level 10 and some of them are retired and living their lives. Makes sense to me that way. When we started, we encountered standard wolves, later worgs, dire wolves, advanced dire wolves, yet more advanced dire wolves... You see the point. Actually that doesn't make any sense to me, lol. Unless there is some radiation or something making these things freak out and grow then the population would be basically the same..or not the same in numbers..but if there were wolves, bears, and deer in the forest..then 3 years later there should be wolves, bears, and deer in the forest..maybe a couple of the bigger wolves or bears from the surrounding lands wandered over and are killing their smaller counterparts..but I wouldn't change all bears and wolves and deer to their dire counterparts.
Lord Stigius 09-15-04, 04:53 PM	Actually that doesn't make any sense to me, lol. Unless there is some radiation or something making these things freak out and grow then the population would be basically the same..or not the same in numbers..but if there were wolves, bears, and deer in the forest..then 3 years later there should be wolves, bears, and deer in the forest..maybe a couple of the bigger wolves or bears from the surrounding lands wandered over and are killing their smaller counterparts..but I wouldn't change all bears and wolves and deer to their dire counterparts. Nor does it make any sense to me. See, the 'growing wolves syndrome' appeared in a game where I was a player , not the DM. I'm referring to it to visualize the problems which may be brought about by advancing the 'setting'. A player of mine may perceive my advanced Duke's soldiers just like I did perceive these advanced wolves, and that's what I'm striving to avoid.
Sucineri 09-15-04, 05:03 PM	Well, I really don't see a reason why it could be much trouble as long as the whole thing makes sense. It makes sense that low ranked military people would have gotten to higher ranks, and it makes sense that peasants or mercenaries would be interested in joining up too for the glory or money or whatever. Just be sure to have some kind of story in mind as to WHY it is the way it is in game..not just "oh, well you guys got to higher level and normal wolves aren't much of a challenge anymore, so I turned them all into advanced dire mutant robotic space wolves of doom"..that just doesn't make sense :P
Malavus 09-15-04, 05:03 PM	One thing to keep in mind is that background NPCs will advance to a certain degree, but there is a limit. No matter how many wars versus orcs a common soldier participates in, he reaches a point where he no longer garners experience from such encounters. And most cities will not have increasingly powerful armies coming against them to continually level up the guard. Most of them will be fighting off goblinoid invasions and the like - in which case there is a definate ceiling to the power level of those guards.
Sucineri 09-15-04, 05:06 PM	Exactly what I was thinking too..the highest of the best trained of the riches guards should only get to about level 10..then they can't really advance anymore unless there is a constant barrage against great wyrm red dragons that for some reason or another they are able to fight back without losing any men. Otherwise the town militia/guard should only run into those things that directly threaten their borders.
Captain Obvious 09-15-04, 05:10 PM	Having done what you suggest in past campaigns - I wouldn't ramp up the difficulty level of the entire world just because your PCs are tougher. At least in my case, I started doing this because I had NPCs or monsters whose presence I really enjoyed (maybe I put a lot of effort into them, or I just really liked the concept, or whatever). Once my PCs started becoming the baddest blokes on the block, my favorite monsters were looking mighty weak. I started bumping up their stats, and my players began wondering why every member of the bloody head orc tribe just happend to have a few levels in barbarian. I took a lot of heat for that, and I should have. I think the better thing to do is let go of the old encounters - let the PCs run riot over the guys that used to hold them down. Then give them new challenges that are more fitting to their level. They get to enjoy the power they've managed to accumulate - they've earned it. If they try to overthrow the king, you can have weaker NPCs use treachery or mass numbers to make things interesting. Heck, you want to surprise the PCs let them conquer, then have them try to hold onto the kingdom against people like themselves...
Kilsek of Sheverash 09-15-04, 05:12 PM	It's important to remember the PCs are the stars of your story, and that most, but not all, NPCs are not on the forefront of the story and adventures. For the small number of NPCs (or even NPC groups, like power groups, guilds, etc.) who are, they should usually be dynamic - closer to a PC. After all, you've purposely put more time as DM into their history, plans, dreams, thoughts, goals, personality, family, friends, associated groups, gear and spell selection. They can be allies or enemies - or even unconcerned about the PCs (until they start meddling of course!). A rare army and leader of that army that "grows" during the campaign is not only interesting, but is also sensible if you give them reason to have advanced into something more. Again, these NPCs and NPC groups aren't the norm - they should be rare - but they're certainly possible, and can make for some very intriguing adventures and stories in the campaign, affecting the PCs as much or as little as you want.
Lord Stigius 09-15-04, 05:13 PM	Most of them will be fighting off goblinoid invasions and the like - in which case there is a definate ceiling to the power level of those guards. Right, but the goblinoids can advance too... Even the same orcs who were attacking the land two years before, if the town soldiers were only fending them off, not slaughtering, can return after having spent some years in the wilderness and gaining as much levels of barbarian as the soldiers gained of fighter... ;)
ECOM 09-15-04, 05:18 PM	when making a town village or city i use the dmg but i also add a party level modifier to the highest level local roll Party level modifier is = to party level /3 rounded down So making a lets say large town and the pc are level 3 comunity mod +3 party modifier +1 (3/3=1) for each class I would a +4 modifier so lets use warrior as an example i would roll 2d4 +4 (5+4=9) so there would be the following wariors in town 1 level 9 2 level 4 4 level 2 210 level 1 (estimated 5% of leftover) a years later after many adventures the pc reach level 18 and deside to go back to the town they left so many years ago the level adjustment modifier if = to new level - old level /3 rounded down 18-3=15 15/3=5 so i apply this modifier to the highest level of each class so for warriors 1 level 14 +5 levels 2 level 7 +3 levels 4 level 3 +1 level 218 level 1 8 new warriors doing this to every class shows growth both in population and in level advancment i do this for nonimportant npc inportant npc i advance at the rate of party level /2 rounded down this keeps them in pace with the pc and the pc will eventually be able to surpass them so if an important npc was 9th level when the pcs are 3rd level when the pcs reach 18th level the important npc would be 16th level (18-3 +15, 15/2=7.5 ,rd to 7, 7+9=16)
Malavus 09-15-04, 05:18 PM	Right, but the goblinoids can advance too... True. However, a limit still exists. One person has to kill ALOT of goblinoids/humans to advance any significant levels. The average town guard or goblinoid tribe member just isn't going to have that kind of exposure. After all - in order for there to be experience gained, someone generally has to DIE. Therefore, there can only be so many of these veterans - either goblinoid or human - who are around next time. Making the "common" soldier lower level.
Lord Stigius 09-15-04, 06:05 PM	I wouldn't ramp up the difficulty level of the entire world just because your PCs are tougher. Neither would I. The problem of keeping random encounter challenging at higher levels is not mine. I have long ago accepted the fact that at high levels the PCs simply do not have random enemies (well.. almost don't). The problem is keeping the world around the PCs both coherent and plausible. My exemplary 'Duke's soldiers', no matter if they are level 1, 2 or 6, pose no real threat to the 18 level PCs. Nor do the orcish bbn's advanced to level 6 from 1. Advancing all these equally (or even close) to the PCs is beyond question. Only sometimes a particular NPC 'deserves' to be advanced that fast. That's why I do say 'background NPCs'. They are background, and make the background. This is rather the flavour issue, concerning the changes in the setting as time passes. I see here 3 basic options, none of them flawless. 1. Don't bother advancement, keep the soldiers at level 1. I have on purpose pointed out that the soldiers are the same people who were there 3 years ago. Now why do they have to be barred from advancing, may one ask. All of them have won a few battles and scores of skirmishes, and are still level 1? 2. Think how many XPs (approximately) could a soldier get, advance all of them accordingly. Assuming that they were vanilla lvl 1 fighters when the Pcs encountered them first, why do they suddenly start advancing after they have met the PCs? Some mystical enlightenment? 3. Assume that only fresh recruits and those who have peaceful court service are lvl 1, all others should be advanced according to their experience. It makes most sense to me, but suddenly blows out the DMG tables. In all classes except commoner chracter levels 2 and up (though not very high - say, up to 4) become far more frequent. Having to discard the tables does not bother me much - I do not use them anyway - but the whole world, including goods, magic items and services availability is based upon assumpion that vast majority of population consists of 1 level chars, even between PC classes. Here the problem starts...
Polymorph 09-15-04, 06:47 PM	So why do all these soldiers start at level 1 when the PCs arrive? Wouldn't it be much more fun if the guards, the goblins and the wolfs in the forest have been fighting all the way to level 14 before the PCs came? Afterall, they have been arround for some time. I bet it would be fun to see the newly born heroes die when they encounter huge highlevel dire wolfs when they enter a forest for the first time :D More or less, the advancing Background thing would mean to calculate xp for every living beeing in your campaign world... a task at which highend Computers might crash :rofl: Also, why shouldn't a level 18 party encounter a group of trolls? Yeah it wont be too challenging to beat them, but i think that's a good thing, because that's where you really notice how strong you have become.
zodiki 09-15-04, 07:10 PM	IMC, 99% of NPCs never advance - they just don't have the will or opportunity to do so. There are the heroes and the villains (who advance) and everybody else (who don't). That's the way I handle it.
Sucineri 09-15-04, 08:37 PM	I don't think commoners should advance..they are just commoners and do their normal thing day in and day out..they don't really "do" much of anything and they don't have to learn more than they know. Soldiers/Militia/Guards over time should aquire hire numbers of themselves and some of them should level up because they have to use new strategies against different kinds of enemies..there has to be some reason that the "champions" are level 5 or 6..they weren't born that way..neither did the "elite guards"..they all had to level to where they are now. I am not saying that if everyone in a town guard is level 1 when you are level one that when you come back at level 18 they are level 18 because that just doesn't make sense..they haven't gone anywhere or experienced the things you experienced. I don't think any "common" folk or town dwellers like local guards should go any higher than level 10 at the absolute highest. Random encounters should happen at all levels or else they aren't random encounters. You can be level 42 and STILL fight a wandering group of level 3 bandits trying to take all your money..it won't work mind you, but they will still do it.
Lord Stigius 09-15-04, 08:56 PM	Random encounters should happen at all levels or else they aren't random encounters. You can be level 42 and STILL fight a wandering group of level 3 bandits trying to take all your money..it won't work mind you, but they will still do it. Of course they should, I've never tried to imply the opposite. When I wrote 'high level PCs do not have random enemies', I meant exactly what I wrote: enemies. The PCs may still encounter random creatures (and they do), but these creatures pose no threat, so they are not enemies of imporatance. Something that can be crushed under heel does not deserve the name of 'enemy'. The real enemies seldom are random at high levels. If someone meaningful wants to get these powerful characters, he usually does not randomly jump at them, but follows some kind of a plan.
Sucineri 09-16-04, 01:13 AM	I seem to find around the point a PC reaches level 5 they have drawn enough attention to warrant having a non-random enemy :)
Lord Stigius 09-17-04, 02:49 PM	Sucineri I seem to find around the point a PC reaches level 5 they have drawn enough attention to warrant having a non-random enemy This happenes to be the point in my games too. Exactly level 5. Especially in the current game, after they had destroyed to the ground the necromantic temple they were only supposed to sneak into. Never underestimate the hypercreative gnome alchemist played by a chemistry engineer...
Roxlimn 09-17-04, 03:27 PM	Undead infestations, fiendish incursions and Orc invasions are not the sorts of things nations and armies regularly have to go through. Even if the Duke spares nothing for the safety of his men, if they go through all these major events in no more than three years, then they should have sustained some pretty major casualties. Most armies in this situation keep up numbers by reinforcing units and training new ones. In game terms, the local events have created veterans of the invasions - units that are exceptional, having level 2 warriors, and perhaps even a fighter or two. A substantial bulk of the units are new or heavily reinforced, still being mostly level 1 warriors.
Gedrin 09-17-04, 06:26 PM	This really depends on what you consider "average" in your game world. In my game world, a newly minted soldier is 1st level Warrior (Recruit), after serving a while he'd be 2nd (Green), and if he chose to become a professional soldier in the army, he may well become 3rd (Regular) after experiencing a few battles. In my game, the majority of professionals, are around 3rd level, be they Experts (blacksmiths, scribes), or Warriors (Soldiers, Guardsmen). I realize that most other games use 1st level Warrior as their stock soldier, and that's fine too. I would recomend that you consider allowing your NPC's to progress in level. Some NPC's will be undertaking tasks that challenge them as regularly as the PC's undertake adventures. The Royal Wizard is a good example. He's probably advancing at a reasonable rate due to the many tasks he attempts in service to the king, but not as fast as the PC's. We presume the PC's are taking more risks for their level than the Royal Wizard. Same would go for the King's Champion, High Priest, or other "feature" characters. Large groups, like the army and town guard, don't work quite the same way. First, they take even less risk with the individual, as a rule. Second, the individual has less self determination. Basically, with fewer choices, and fewer risks, they get less experience. Also, they tend not to directly profit from their exploits. All together, they just don't advance like adventurers. Further, units are treated as units. Some units might be Elite, and they would be higher level than the typical soldier, better equiped, and more motivated by their better treatment. Officers with greater skills and abilities would be promoted (as they gained levels). It's not really appropriate to have all the soldiers in a kingdom go up in level. Units cycle soldiers. Men die in battle, or get old. The level of the soldier really represents the level the force is capable of maintaining. A kingdom might have tens of thousands of soldiers at a time, with hundreds leaving service and entering every month. Well trained armies that have practical battlefield experience will be better quality than other armies, and it's appropriate to reflect that (more units are Regulars). If you've just had a successful war in your kingdom, you've got more Regular units and probably several Veteran units. The army has experience, and so do it's soldiers. An unsuccessful war could decimate the military, perhaps by killing off the veterans and officer corps. Will the army stay this way? It would depend on the investment of training from the government. Well trained soldiers with high morale will maintain their skills and stay in the service. Failure to keep training standards high, or neglecting the morale of the soldiers will cause a decline to lower standards. These ideas can be applied to any orginization. Training recruits and retaining the services of experienced members is just as important to the Wizards Guild, Thieves Guild, and Orc Horde as it is to the army of a kingdom. Some orginizations do a good job of this, and remain strong. Some orginizations just take anything they can get, and rely on numbers. These types of orginizational challenges tend to be what sets aside a 10/5th level Warrior/Expert General from the 15th level Fighter Adventurer. One is clearly the better combatant, but the other is the obvious choice for managing an army of 50,000 men at arms. So, the idea is that increasing the average level of an orginization (such as the army) in the long term is more a matter of how the orginization is managed, even if you might be able to capitalize on recent events (sucessful war) to gain an edge in the short term.
Al2902 09-17-04, 06:46 PM	One system which I sometimes use is assuming that the average 'background' character gains 1xp/day as a result of going about his daily business- a peasant working in the fields, a soldier training and patrolling, a craftsman plying his trade and so on. Whilst this rate of advancement is too slow for any PC to contemplate it, it enables NPCs to advance at a sensible rate. This works out in practice to give the following (approximately, assuming age at majority of 18): Level 2: 21 years Level 3: 27 years Level 4: 36 years Level 5: 48 years Level 6: 63 years Level 7: 81 years. In practical terms, most soldiers will be level two or three, with veterans at level four and the grizzled old warrior at level 5.
ck2001wendt 09-17-04, 06:54 PM	---------------------------------------------------- The Duke's soldiers have fought an orc invasion, undead infestation and some minor fiends intruders, not to mention the common bandits in the meantime. The Duke cares for his soldiers, so the casualties have been few (good strategy, clerics and paladins in the army, whatever). The soldiers are mostly the same folks who had been there 3 years ago. What level are they now? ---------------------------------------------------- Stat it out. Take the total number of orcs/undead/fiends that the guard would have reasonably fought in their time in the Duchy, and the total number of the Duke's soldiers. Calculate total XP, then divide by the number of soldiers in the losing army based on their CR versus the average CR of the creatures you encountered (the captain of the guard naturally gets less XP from dealing with a bunch of orc than Pvt. Pyle) (probably also give the losing army 1/2 or 1/4th XP to represent "learning by doing."). I bet at the end of all of this, you probably (with very little replacement) have a lot of lvl 2-4 Warriors.
Darrett 09-17-04, 07:15 PM	I always assume that regular circumstances will cause the NPC guards to remain static. Some will increase in power, some will die in fights, others will retire, and still others will come and fill up the ranks of those who have advanced. You're likely to end up with the same basic levels all around. Consider that a Manor has a guard contingent. The guards are: 12 Level 1s 6 Level 2s 2 Level 4s 1 Level 6 If those guards have been defending the manor for two years since the PCs were there last, you can assume a few things. Firstly, there likely will have been some casualties. Perhaps one of the level 4s has died, a level 2 has, and two of the level 1s. One of the level 2s has been promoted in the heirarchy of the Manor Guard, and has gained the benefit of the advanced training and the knowledge of the other higher-ups around him, advancing him to level 4. Two of the level 1s have been working hard, and have gained a level. Perhaps they were on the night shift together when a pair of thieves tried to pry open the door to the Baron's wine cellar, and apprehended the twerps. The other level 4 has had his contract run out, and he's gone to find more lucrative work in the town, perhaps for a more wealthy merchant... the one who just opened that posh Griffon's Head Inn over on Wavell Street. Of course, he's been replaced with a comparable individual of the same level, the last surviving member of an adventuring group who had a nasty run-in with a gelatinous cube. The duties of the level 6 are much the same as they were two years ago, and although he's gained some experience, it hasn't been enough to advance to level 7. The Baron obviously would hire on some more level 1s to fill in the gaps left at the bottom... they were easy enough to find anyway; lots of eager warriors can be found around a town like this. Although in a smaller area such as this, it's easier to have a few level-ups occur. The level 6 I mentioned may very well be level 7 now, thanks to spending his nights off training with the Gladiators that entertain the Baron's rich friends and colleagues. In a larger town, expect the effects of individuals levelling to be easier to sweep under the rug; they have a lighter impact on the town's situation when you have a guard force of 1200. Just remember that all the NPCs have lives. They'll die, retire, find other careers, or the like. However, there are always experienced people to replace them. I find changing a few names around can help. When the PCs return to Darigport they find that the level 2 Guard that they spoke to at the North Gate Guard Post is now a level 4 Leftenant of the Guard; he's simply replaced a level 4 that used to be there, and was consequently replaced himself by another level 2. Now, with all that said; a great battle, or a war can increase the levels of certain individuals in the guard or army. You'll still have a certain amount of lower level raw recruits, but you'll have more veterans. If there has been such an occurance, a level increase is something you should definately look into, provided the guard or army won. If not, you may even consider a decrease in levels (With a few exceptions... there are always survivors of lost battles, and they may have gained a great deal of experience even though they lost.). Well, that's that. I could probably go on for a while about this, but it's been too long already. :D
Karelzarath 09-17-04, 07:19 PM	The Duke's soldiers have fought an orc invasion, undead infestation and some minor fiends intruders, not to mention the common bandits in the meantime. The Duke cares for his soldiers, so the casualties have been few (good strategy, clerics and paladins in the army, whatever). The soldiers are mostly the same folks who had been there 3 years ago. What level are they now? Forgive the bluntness, but why does it matter? Unless the PCs are going to be attacking the guards, it doesn't matter what level they are. The important thing is how people react to them. They fought off foes that would kill almost anyone, and the common man would likely revere them, collectively, as mighty heroes worthy of respect and their firstborn daughters. If they are going to be "fighting" another group for plot reasons, just decide how much more/less powerful they are than the other group and script it accordingly. Virtually any other off-screen in-game situation can be handled the same way. IMC, I don't stat up, or even think about the level of, any NPC that will not be in direct conflict with the PCs. Opposed skill checks are handled using archetypical skill levels and average stats. To me, stats are less interesting than the story behind them. I provide shallow backgrounds for each NPC the party encounters (even if it's just off-the-cuff) and see what the players react well to. These I flesh out more. Lather, rinse, repeat. If you want to stat the guards out, though, just make them whatever level you feel is reasonable. Level 6 wouldn't be unreasonable. Just decide how powerful the opponents were, how outnumbered they were, and how many survived (an inverse relationship, to be sure). Then just guestimate the level gain from that. It's likely not worth a more mathematically-intensive process.
Darrett 09-17-04, 07:28 PM	Karelzarath makes a good point... it generally isn't required to deal with stats at all. However, in certain games, you should. One of my groups in particular has a nasty habit of getting others to do their work for them. This leads to games where I really should have stats on many of the fighting sorts of characters... (They've actually "Trained" a small army of Orcs directly into the middle of a town before, just to get the aid of the town guards.) Mostly, be happy with some extremely basic stats... a few skills perhaps, hit points, attack bonus, AC, Damage, and the three saving throws. Assume they all have 10s in every stat, and are all identical in statistics. You can get more precise than that if you like... I generally only get into specifics with possible major characters. (Sergeants and Captains of the guard, Innkeepers in the PC's favourite Inn, and of course the Evil Bardess who spends her time attempting to get the PCs to fight each other for her own amusement.)
LukiLoki 09-17-04, 08:14 PM	I second the idea that an army, or other organization is going to stay fairly static over time in terms of levels. So the army goes off and fights tough battles, against foes that would be worth enough exp. to raise everyone in the army a level. But these are TOUGH battles, right? So a significant portion of the 1st lvl. warriors don't advance. They're dead. So are some of the veterans, as well as some officers. The warriors who survive to advance fill the roles of the unlucky or retired higher level NPC's and new recruits fill out the lower ranks. Sure, given enough of this, you'll see some "creep" upward on the part of those who survive multiple campaigns, but nothing on the scale of one battle raising the overall level of the army from 1LWar to 5LWar. And, yes, "growing wolves syndrome" is difficult to avoid when running a campaign. But it has a lot to do with what you're willing to call "an encounter". A couple dire wolves is clearly not any kind of challenge to a high level party, so, while they might still be around, it's a waste of game time narrating every CR 2 encounter that realistically would be plaguing 15th level characters at the same rate as it was 2nd level characters. Unless they're not around, because the PC's killed 'em all, which is a valid answer as well. The question is really "why weren't we encountering these uber-wolves at 1st level?" DM's answer: "because the campaign would have ended with a TPK" That's why I always try to throw in a few overpowering encounters at low levels, where the PC's have ample opportunity to "Run away! Run away!" Adds versimilitude, and let's 'em know up front that they'd better watch out, 'cause no matter how tough you are, there's always something tougher.
Lord Stigius 09-17-04, 09:43 PM	Karelzarath Forgive the bluntness, but why does it matter? Unless the PCs are going to be attacking the guards, it doesn't matter what level they are. No no no... Unless in a dungeon crawl only, it means a lot. For example whether the Duchy is going to fall, be smashed, crushed etc. under consecutive waves of new attackers, or not. Also, a D&D army may well consist not only of fighters, but also members of other classes, including spellcasters. If those advance noticeably in levels, the availability of magic items (especially lower-level ones, like potions) increases dramatically. And army wizards and clerics are even less likely to die in battle than common grunts. Side note: I've seen that many people here refer to the soldiers from my example as 'warriors', while I've deliberately said in my initial post:Duke's soldiers are for most part 1lvl fighters Let us suppose (for the example purpose, say, though this is not a set-up example, but rather a reference to a specific town IMC) that no fresh recruits are accepted into military there without an extensive training, making them 'full professionals'. And the DMG has it: 'you should also use the warrior class for the soldiers, though maybe not for career soldiers'. Well, those definitely are careerr soldiers. I definitely felt entitled to giving them ftr class. Wrong? Or has it been changed in 3,5?
Darrett 09-17-04, 10:07 PM	No no no... Unless in a dungeon crawl only, it means a lot. For example whether the Duchy is going to fall, be smashed, crushed etc. under consecutive waves of new attackers, or not. Also, a D&D army may well consist not only of fighters, but also members of other classes, including spellcasters. If those advance noticeably in levels, the availability of magic items (especially lower-level ones, like potions) increases dramatically. And army wizards and clerics are even less likely to die in battle than common grunts. I wouldn't say they're any less likely. Remember that the enemy is smart. They have their own Wizards, and they will target the largest threat. If your soldiers will increase in level, then they must have gone through some -huge- battles. The most skilled fighter in the world can't survive long when the enemies start swarming over him. The big thing to think about is that there is always a way to remove a powerful NPC. If you don't see any way that a Wizard would die, and somehow get involved in enough battles that they level (A career soldier doesn't fight as much in a year as an adventurer does in a month), consider that any serious opponents would deal with him in other ways... Assassins, Anti-Magic Fields, etc. Side note: I've seen that many people here refer to the soldiers from my example as 'warriors', while I've deliberately said in my initial post: Let us suppose (for the example purpose, say, though this is not a set-up example, but rather a reference to a specific town IMC) that no fresh recruits are accepted into military there without an extensive training, making them 'full professionals'. And the DMG has it: 'you should also use the warrior class for the soldiers, though maybe not for career soldiers'. Well, those definitely are careerr soldiers. I definitely felt entitled to giving them ftr class. Wrong? Or has it been changed in 3,5? I was just using Warriors as an example. As a Fighter or Warrior, they're still treated the same in advancement. A castle guard isn't going to be facing challenges equal to his CR day after day like an adventurer. If your party's gone up 10 levels, he may have gotten himself half that many if he's exceptionally lucky or skilled... and probably seen many, many commanding officers and friends die.
The Shaman 09-19-04, 03:58 PM	In my game I houserule that ordinary NPCs gain only half the experience of PCs - that's a holdover from 1e AD&D flavored by the d20 Modern Ordinary (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/msrdordinaries.rtf) rules. Heroic NPCs (cohorts or BBEGs, for example) gain experience normally. I find this keeps the PCs a step ahead of the teeming throngs while allowing their greatest allies and foes to keep pace. I also use a lot of story awards and minimize experience from combat, so killing stuff is rarely the way to advance in the world anyway. In the example of the Duke's retinue, I'd say at least half of them died, retired, or otherwise left the Duke's service, and therefore the survivors gain a level or two at most, while the rest are low-level replacements.
ck2001wendt 09-19-04, 04:41 PM	------------------------------------------- The Shaman said: In the example of the Duke's retinue, I'd say at least half of them died, retired, or otherwise left the Duke's service, and therefore the survivors gain a level or two at most, while the rest are low-level replacements. -------------------------------------------- Many of you are sort of missing the point here: the thread starter has already said that most of the army is still alive. He doesn't want to figure out if the world is static; he knows it's not, and now he wants a mechanic for dealing with it. The point about retirement is a better one...unless these guys are being conscripted, a lot of them are going to bend swords into plowshares (and some are going to go off on their own as mercs). Refer to my previous post. Do XP for the battle as normal. Figure out how many survive each big battle. Figure out how many are around for the next big battle. Run the XP for that battle. At the end, you have a general idea of how many are around from the early days, how many are raw recruits, etc. Alternately, divide your soldiers into ranks (recruits, Lts, Captains). Give them a fixed amount of experience for the time they've been in service. For ex, a Recruit gets 1 XP a day until he hits lvl 3. Then he gets 2 (or 5, or whatever). Keep track of retention as you go. Frankly, I like the first method better.
The Shaman 09-19-04, 04:55 PM	Many of you are sort of missing the point here: the thread starter has already said that most of the army is still alive.I understood the point - as I said, I wasn't looking at casualties exclusively, which is why retirement, getting thrown in the brig, desertion, and other factors were factored in as well. I guess I did a poor job of making that clear. Many other posters such as yourself have covered mechanical details for awarding XP, so I chose not to belabor that point - I just wanted to add my houserule for lower experience for ordinary rather than heroic NPCs.
Lord Stigius 09-19-04, 05:45 PM	ck2001wendt The point about retirement is a better one...unless these guys are being conscripted, a lot of them are going to bend swords into plowshares (and some are going to go off on their own as mercs). They are free to return to plowing. However,very few are willing to. Their social status and incomes are far higher than they used to be. They can afford to upkeep houses in the town and families there, and able to spend about half of their time with them, the second half on duty (everyday practice, guard service, etc.). Things change during invasions, but even then they are not far, and not for long - the Duchy spans little more than 60 miles in diameter, soldiers take shifts in field service and town guard. The method you suggest, ck2001wendt is quite close to what I was actually doing. Only I seldom calculate the exact XPs for particular encounters, even for the PCs, rather assigning them as I see fit. Thanks for all answers so far!
Roxlimn 09-20-04, 11:18 AM	I do not agree with that Lord Stigius. If you people your towns with soldiers who are willing to risk their lives on a daily basis for luxuries, and survive impossible odds, then you've basically seeded your world with NPCs who are PCs. You run the risk of the PCs asking, "Why doesn't anyone else want to do this thing?" The thing with most NPCs, and real people, really, is that their lives are important to them. Most people who rather pick a non-life-threatening occupation that pays the minimum they need to live rather than a high stakes one wherein they might die for questionably certain gains. This is especially true for people with families.
FriendoftheDork 09-21-04, 12:46 AM	I think you're wasting your time if you dwell too much on this. These NPCs are just extras - and unless their experience matter to the PCs, their advancement is irrelevant. The DM should not tell the players what level his NPCs are! it ruins suspense. If however, the PCs take part in running a realm or some such, I would base soldiers on what experience and training they have. Well trained professional soldiers are Fighters, others are warriors. Lvl 1 represents the most common level in the world. This assumes that soldiers are "relieved" constantly, by new recruits, by leave, conscripts going back to their farms, and of course becoming mutilated or even dying. If however there is little or no such "replacements", there will be no 1st level fighters and most will be veterans, thus at least 3rd level. Of course, none will be higher than 10th level, due to limited challenge. But that his highly unlikely. It's better to assume that rotation is as fast as level gain.
Lord Stigius 09-22-04, 02:48 PM	Roxlimm: I do not agree with that Lord Stigius. If you people your towns with soldiers who are willing to risk their lives on a daily basis for luxuries, and survive impossible odds, then you've basically seeded your world with NPCs who are PCs. You run the risk of the PCs asking, "Why doesn't anyone else want to do this thing?" The thing with most NPCs, and real people, really, is that their lives are important to them. Most people who rather pick a non-life-threatening occupation that pays the minimum they need to live rather than a high stakes one wherein they might die for questionably certain gains. This is especially true for people with families. In general completly agreed. But those people, and the Duchy itself, are quite 'particular'. In my initial post I gave only the essence, for page-long setting description in bad English may repel even the most dedicated posters. The world: Homebrew Prime Material, until recently quiet normal, byt for a few years being increasingly torn by Blood War, with open portals and direct connecions to both Abyss and Baator. The Duchy: Sixty miles in diameter, with one - but large - town, where previously the lord, and later the PCs too were gathering the most capable people that could be found (and were willing to move there). Currently all the lands are protected by mythal. All the defense is geared towards stoppnig the foes who breach the magical protection, or circumvent it. The population: About 50.000 people. All healty grown-ups are required to master at least one weapon and practise with it.(Normal '1 simple weapon proficiency' of the commoner class) 3.000 of the town and land militia. all of them have some training and equipment - namely either (1)chainmail, large shield, spear and axe/ sword, or (2) leather armour, bow, sword/ axe. I use for them the warrior class. Overwhelming majority is level 1, some level 2. 200 of the guards, including approximately 10 paladins, 30 rangers, the others being fighters. They are, and feel, the Duke's mercenaries, living their lives similar to the Roman soldiers. Equipment: armoured knights in full plate, rangers in MW chainshirts, others in MW breastplates. The temple of Heironeus during its existence has manufactured over four scores of magical weapons, almost all of them are in use by the Duke's elite men. The PCs have looted some two scores more and one of them produced a score of adamantine swords. (Actually, the PCs have looted far more. But these two scores are what they let lose into the town). When those people were recruited, some of them over ten years ago, they were indeed striving for better lives. Now they fight for their lives and are well aware of it.