Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mcmurphy510 11-27-05, 05:34 PM	I'm currently running a game in Cormyr in the Forgotten Realms. I've updated the old 2e adventure anthology "Four From Cormyr" to be used with 3.5. The adventure they are currently on is called "Murder Most Magical." In the adventure, the PCs get invited to a party along with several other adventureing compaines, some merchant houses, nobles houses and the King and his entourage. The party is to celebrate the annaversary of the coronation of the King and out of tradation, adventruing groups are invited to recite the Oath of Charter in front of the King (in Cormyr, all adventuring groups must have a charter in order to operate legally). The party is hosted by a noble who is the Registrant General of Cormyr, who ends up getting murdered. Since the PCs have gone on missions for the crown before, they are aksed to assist in the investigation. They were given a writ which allowed them to question anyone and search anywhere they chose, but could not make arrests or detain anyone (only a Purple Dragon - a member of Cormyr's military - could do that). They were told that could not use violance unless they were defending themselves and they were admonished against being rude to any of the Nobles. Now, the nobles in my game dont take any ****, but I know my group. They will use this oppertunity to exploit what they have been given and try to get one over on everyone that they can. They will always try to work within (and abuse) the letter of what they are told, and ignore the spirit of it. So, given that, I put in several oppertunites where they CAN get away with it (in hopes that it will get it out of their system). I put in a big burly figter that would not be cooperative in the least and always attack them, so they could have their fight (against an otherwise superior opponent, but he did not have his weapons or armor since he was in custody). I put in another adventuring group that thought they were far superior to the party, and allowed the party to seperate them and make them think that they rest had sold them out - and cause much in-fighting amoung that group. And I of course put in several individuals and groups that were 100% cooperative, to show the PCs that I'm not trying to resist them (as a DM) at every oppertunity. But did that quell their thirst for misbehavior. OF COURSE NOT!!! Many of the nobles were quite cooperative, but some where not, feeling that they were above all of this. The first incident occured when the PCs searched the room of Lord and Lady Emmeresk. Lady Emmeresk was being quite cooperative with the group but was genuinely concerned and confused as to why the party was wasting time bothering with them and not out there trying to catch the killer. One of the group told her to sit her <behind> down and shut up. Lord Emeresk, who had been silent up until now, drew his sword and asked the PC how dare he insult his wife's honor. A purple dragon stepped in before he could challenge the pc to a dual. The party made a powerful enemy. Incidnet number two was when the group searched the room of and questioned Lord and Lady Huntcrown (who are were suspects, but did not do it). They were uncooperative with the party and were outraged that they were being treated like common criminals. The group told him that that if he did not cooperate he would be taken down to the dungeon where he can spend a few days cooling off. This outraged him even more, because now the party REALLY WAS overstepping their bounds. Insults were exchanged and a purple dragon finally stepped to enforce the writ. Another powerful enemy. These two incidents requires a MAJOR responce from each noble house. Both houses are extremely powerful and have the resources to do pretty much what they want to the PCs. In fact if another NPC had done what the PC had done to Lady Emmereck, it would result in their death. Now I dont want to execute a PC, nor do I want to run them out of Cormyr, since I have several more advenrures planned there and it would greatly disrupt my game. What I'm thinking of doing is having Lord Emeresk seek out the offending PC and publically challenge him to a dual. As for the Huntcrowns (who are more devious) I'm thinking of having them send thugs to beat up the offending PCs and relieve them of a few of their most important items. I doing so, howver, I want to send a perminant message. Don't mess with Nobles. If I just beat them up, they'll heal and go after the Huntcrowns again, who will escalate (beyond the point that the party will be able to presently handle). So I need to come up with something that will take the party a while to recover from, and hopefully generate an additional quest or two (that I can put something cool at the end of so the party does not think it's all in vein). Possible a magical curse of some sort. So, I have a few questions: 1. Has anyone on the board ever had their group in a similar situation involving Royalty or Nobles? What did you do to resolve it in game? 2. What are the rules involving dueling (from our RL past)? In what cases can a serrogare step in to duel for another (because if a PC kills a noble - duel or not - they'll be kicked out of Cormyr)? Does Cormyr even allow Dueling (for those of you who are FR-philes)? 3. Also for FR-philes - Have the Emmeresk and Huntcrows ever worked togeather? Are those noble families on good terms? 4. Do you have any other suggestions as to how I might send that message (Don't mess with Nobles) to the group? Please comment on my plans regarding What the Huntcrows will do. If you will think it will be effective and how I might go about it. Much Thanks - both for reading my novel and for your replies...
Vestigial_Thumb 11-27-05, 05:52 PM	Maybe they're those "OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT" types. I know I am. If you just want them to obey the laws that nobles set for them, you're just railroading them.
WayneTheGame 11-27-05, 05:54 PM	I'm not sure if there are laws in Cormyr against duels, but I would go along with it, just not to the death (10% of hit points or something); if the PC doesn't relent and kills Lord Emeresk, THEN have him executed for murder. Or if you want to be REALLY devious, have dueling be illegal but they go along with it anyways in a "secret" area, and then have the guards show up (like in Three Musketeers). Lord Emeresk will have connections to keep him out of jail (maybe the guard captain is an old friend. "Captain So-and-So, this ruffian accosted me just now and was trying to rob me! I had no choice but to duel the rogue. I'm certain you understand..") but the PC might not (or just slap him with a heavy fine or something). Also, keep in mind that these are noble families. They'll have influence in other areas of Cormyr. Use that to your advantage, not to deliberately screw your PCs over, but to demonstrate that if you tick off someone in power, you're going to get burned. I'm not sure what they get their income from, but life should become more difficult for the PCs since people who deal with them will know that they're insolent. For example, someone who they might need the services of may be a close personal friend of the Huntcrowns and/or Emeresks and wouldn't be too happy to deal with the PCs. Or might charge double/triple/more what the service is worth out of spite.
mcmurphy510 11-27-05, 06:21 PM	Maybe they're those "OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT" types. I know I am. If you just want them to obey the laws that nobles set for them, you're just railroading them. How is that railroading? They are welcome to go and do whatever they want. But if they do something that peeves off someone in power, they are gonna get a reprisal, plain and simple. What do you think would happen if someone was investigating somehitng involving the Queen of England or Prince Charles and that individual started talking smack to them, what do you think would happen? If the PCs do something that gets them in way over their heads, which they have done, then there are concequences for that. Playing NPCs and enacting their responce in the game is NOT railroading! If someone knocks over a bank and the police have video footage of them doing it and of the get away vehicle, chances are that they will be caught. The police will bring the full force of their resources against these individuals. Would you call that railroading? I think not!
mcmurphy510 11-27-05, 06:29 PM	I'm not sure if there are laws in Cormyr against duels, but I would go along with it, just not to the death (10% of hit points or something); if the PC doesn't relent and kills Lord Emeresk, THEN have him executed for murder. Or if you want to be REALLY devious, have dueling be illegal but they go along with it anyways in a "secret" area, and then have the guards show up (like in Three Musketeers). Lord Emeresk will have connections to keep him out of jail (maybe the guard captain is an old friend. "Captain So-and-So, this ruffian accosted me just now and was trying to rob me! I had no choice but to duel the rogue. I'm certain you understand..") but the PC might not (or just slap him with a heavy fine or something) Also, keep in mind that these are noble families. They'll have influence in other areas of Cormyr. Use that to your advantage, not to deliberately screw your PCs over, but to demonstrate that if you tick off someone in power, you're going to get burned. I'm not sure what they get their income from, but life should become more difficult for the PCs since people who deal with them will know that they're insolent. For example, someone who they might need the services of may be a close personal friend of the Huntcrowns and/or Emeresks and wouldn't be too happy to deal with the PCs. Or might charge double/triple/more what the service is worth out of spite. Those are both good ideas. I'll have to find a way to seperate the offending PC away from the rest of the group to do the first one however, otherwise the other PCs will step in. The PCs are seeking to do business with some of the noble houses. This could effect their chances for that. Anyone know what other Noble houses of Cormyr are allied / opposed to the Huntcrowns and Emmeresk?
Kintara 11-27-05, 06:35 PM	Okay, I'm going to focus on your side of the equation for a while too, as it's not good to jump straight to the player's fault. The DM, after all, has quite a bit of control over a game, and has a certain responsibility to make everything clear and fun for all. Did you give the players a chance to reconsider their characters' responses? If you honestly think it would cause a lot of carnage, then there's no reason to not inform your players that the nobles have a lot of resources and you, as the DM, are not above using them. Also, while I don't know if it's railroading, your description gives the impression of pretty tight plotting. Sometimes players like to rebel if they feel their characters don't have enough options that they like. As the DM, you have created (or are controlling) the content of the adventure. If the players aren't interested in the particulars of the content then they might snub their noses at a noble to change the dynamics of the game to ANYTHING else.
Gworraent 11-27-05, 06:35 PM	only one thing to do, justicars come in, knock 'em cold. and they wake up with their heads on the chopping block...roll up new characters everyone!
WayneTheGame 11-27-05, 06:58 PM	I did a quick Google search.. here's what I pulled up (not sure if this is from a valid source or not, however): Emmarask* This family has political power as the root of its prominence among nobles. It might be said that this family is composed of career politicians and governors of all types. This family has a long tradition of serving the government of Cormyr in a variety of ways. Their crowning achievement is Alaphondar, the Sage Most Learned of the Royal Court, who is member of this family. The Emmarasks foster all their young to follow in the footsteps of their forebears and take up careers in politics. In addition, those who already have positions are encouraged to grant positions to other family members. Surprisingly, this practice has not met much disapproval among the other nobles. The primary reason for this is Alaphondar´s prominence. In a way, it's thought that if someone as great as Alaphondar can come from the Emmarask family, then perhaps there is someone else just as great waiting to fulfil the family destiny. In this case it is Alaphondar´s assistant, Lord Dier Emmarask (LG hm F?), who is waiting to step into his shoes in the family tradition. In addition, no one in the Emmarask family has ever abused his or her office or power, and this reputation commands respect among the other noble families. *Not sure if this is the same family you are referring to.. but the names look remarkably similar. Huntcrown This is a diverse family with interests all over Cormyr. As such, Huntcrowns are often the nobles who are best informed of the nation's goings-on. Unfortunately, this is also the noble family that spreads the most gossip and rumor. Huntcrowns are at the center of the greatest number of scandals of any noble family. Naturally, their greatest adversary is the Cormaeril family, whose members jealously guard their privacy. To the woe of some families, the Huntcrowns seem well entrenched in the noble structure. Their financial and political holdings are so diverse that no single calamity would bring about the fall of the family. If you take what's written here, then your PCs are royally screwed. The Emmerask/Emeresk family has the respect of other noble families as well as influence in the royal court. The Huntcrowns look like they're the rumor mongers so suffice to say 90+% of people in Cormyr will know what the PCs did and will react accordingly (however this might give them allies in the Cormaeril family who would be secretly happy that someone showed up those nosy Huntcrowns)
Messer 11-27-05, 08:55 PM	1. Has anyone on the board ever had their group in a similar situation involving Royalty or Nobles? What did you do to resolve it in game? Yeah, I had a 3rd level thief pipe up and use vulgarieties at a Noble man in Cormyr infront of an entire auditorium. The noble man called him out, and cut him up a bit. I let the PC run a solo 'assassination' mission later that night, he was captured and executed for being a murdurer. Forced him to come back as a cleric. I find that you gotta let them understand that you will kill them for transgressions, otherwize, the death penalty doesn't mean anything. 2. What are the rules involving dueling (from our RL past)? In what cases can a serrogare step in to duel for another (because if a PC kills a noble - duel or not - they'll be kicked out of Cormyr)? Does Cormyr even allow Dueling (for those of you who are FR-philes)? I would certainly say the Cavilier spirit of the Adventuring and Proud people would of Cormyr would allow a duel. With swords, dules can be called till blood, death, or forfiet. heck, heres something intersting for you, Both Abraham Lincoln, and Andrew Jackson were knowen for being involved in Duals. The Challanger makes a Challange, the 'Challangee' chooses weapons and location in "customary, and polite" duals. In Lincolns case, this came to a forfiet when the 6 foot tall Lincoln said, "Axe Handles in 5 Feet of water." his 5 foot tall opponent withdrew the challange. In Jackson's case, he was the Challanger, the 'Challangee' said, "Pistols" which resulted in Jackson being shot in the chest, but still taking time after being shot to carefully aim, and take his opponent out with a head shot. Conclusion, "Duels are so cool!" 3. Also for FR-philes - Have the Emmeresk and Huntcrows ever worked togeather? Are those noble families on good terms? being me, and having never read a book... I would say that anyone who has a common enemy would certainly work in concert to see that those people are brought down. Go ahead and have both families start investigations to show that the party did the killing. (I dont know) I never put faith in books as to what 'each group' does... when the game is on, I use my own ideas.... not other peoples. 4. Do you have any other suggestions as to how I might send that message (Don't mess with Nobles) to the group? Please comment on my plans regarding What the Huntcrows will do. If you will think it will be effective and how I might go about it. Other than making an example of people who cross the line, I am gonna say that you are in a tight spot. Remember that, (and I have the same problems as you) NPCs dont take kindly to things, and often there is no way for the party to learn the things they need to learn unless they use a little 'sparkle in ther smile' and a little 'sense in thier questioning'.... Take a look at the rules for 'intimidation' in the skills section of the phb.
feartheinvinceblehamster 11-27-05, 09:06 PM	Maybe it's not just there fault, which you seem to think. By the sounds of it your not running the kind of game they like, and won't get this through your head. So it's partially your fault. I'm sure from reading this the party would be happier looting myth draanor and rampaging through the underdark then investigating a murder. Maybe you should just let them get away with it this time, and having the merchant families escalate or strike back isn't going to do it. I'll say your PCs are about 9th level. There aren't any 9th level people just waiting around for their next "thug job" to go beat up someone. And if a purple dragon steps in against a guy about to duel them, since when are they not going to step into an actual duel. Frankly, if you were running a game I didn't like as a hack and slasher, sometimes you have to make it hack and slash yourself. No thugs, not even those of a prominent noble family, should have the equipment and simple skill of your PCs. The average thug should be a 3rd level warrior, at best. In fact, I think maybe them going "Treated like common criminals!" is really going to set the PCs into the mind that they did it, almost as much as them sticking 2 "V"s into the air and yelling "I am not a crook!"
Shazarn 11-27-05, 10:15 PM	The sons should get stinking drunk and come to the party's appartment and try to duel them.
mcmurphy510 11-28-05, 04:46 AM	...Did you give the players a chance to reconsider their characters' responses? If you honestly think it would cause a lot of carnage, then there's no reason to not inform your players that the nobles have a lot of resources and you, as the DM, are not above using them. I must admit that I did not give them an oppertunity to recondiser their actions, however I run a game where (if you are in character) once you say it, you do it. The players are ususally very good about what they do and say in character and I'm somewhat forgiving if they slip up once or twice. In this situation what they were doing was quite deliberate. I run a very high powered game where the PCs can get alot of power, but the NPCs can too. The players know from pervious adventures in Cormyr that some nobles have much power and resources and they also know that I will (as a DM - and more importantly as the NPCs) bring those resources to bear. ...your description gives the impression of pretty tight plotting. Sometimes players like to rebel if they feel their characters don't have enough options that they like. As the DM, you have created (or are controlling) the content of the adventure. If the players aren't interested in the particulars of the content then they might snub their noses at a noble to change the dynamics of the game to ANYTHING else. Hmmh... I did not mean for the description to sound like tight plotting. Perhaps I have misconstrued it in some way (at least I think that's the case). Would you be kind enough to point out where you see that, so I can examine it further? As for player options, I've given them authority to go where and question whomever they want. There are members of the group who prefer a bit more fighting, but I think I put in enough rabble-rousers for them to pound on so the H&Sers will get their share too. In fact one of the PCs is posing as a Cleric to Siamorphe (goddess of Royalty and Nobility) and he has a side mission (that he sought out on his own) that he must gather information on one of the noble families (not one of the two mentioned). In game he had been pursuing knowledge (and had been given quite a bit) about how a cleric to Siamorphe acts and conducts them selves and about how to treat / interact with nobles (which is Siamorphe's bread and butter). Out of game he had been asking for just such and adventure, where he could use his 'Siamoprhe Skills' more directly (which I think demonstrates his intrest in the content). So in many ways this adventure is being run for him - but he's one of the one's acting up... And I would in fact say the primary instigator of it.
mcmurphy510 11-28-05, 04:57 AM	...heck, heres something intersting for you, Both Abraham Lincoln, and Andrew Jackson were knowen for being involved in Duals. The Challanger makes a Challange, the 'Challangee' chooses weapons and location in "customary, and polite" duals. In Lincolns case, this came to a forfiet when the 6 foot tall Lincoln said, "Axe Handles in 5 Feet of water." his 5 foot tall opponent withdrew the challange.... Awesome. I know about Jackson but not about Lincolin. I posted a question specifically about deuls in Cormyr on the FR boards and I got a reply from someone who works with Ed Greenwood... here's the link for those interested: http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=543397 ...being me, and having never read a book... I would say that anyone who has a common enemy would certainly work in concert to see that those people are brought down. Go ahead and have both families start investigations to show that the party did the killing. (I dont know) I never put faith in books as to what 'each group' does... when the game is on, I use my own ideas.... not other peoples. I do run a version of the Forgotten Realms that is VERY different than what is presented in the FRCS so I completely understand about using your own ideas.... however I like to stick to cannon, where it is appropiate. The noble houses are not something that I've changed much from the FRCS.
MarkB 11-28-05, 05:51 AM	One occasional feature of dueling societies was that those with sufficient money and/or social seniority would employ a Champion or Proxy to fight duels on their behalf and protect their honour. Such a person was, of course, typically extremely competent within his particular area of speciality. The obvious immediate response would be to get the PCs off the case. The Emmarasks could move to have them stripped of their writ and powers on grounds of incompetence to carry them out, and Huntcrown could then step in to provide supporting evidence, some real and some manufactured - this could happen even without former co-operation between the families. The PCs would lose all powers and privileges related to the investigation, be banned from acquiring such powers again, and probably face a hefty fine. To give them a chance to redeem themslves, have the replacement investigators accuse someone the party already cleared as innocent - perhaps even a Huntcrown or Emmarask. If they can find a way to challenge the investigation and prevent a miscarriage of justice, the nobles may be prepared to accept a formal apology rather than pursuing further reprisals.
alecthemad 11-28-05, 09:02 AM	I think the best option is to get their charter revoked. The nobles will bide their time while the investigation concludes and the mystery is wrapped up. Once the writ is revoked they will see to it that the group's charter is revoked. They will also see to it that the group is not informed of this revocation. The party finds out at a bad time, for example they may be hot on the heels of some evil doer but the purple dragon's come out and arrest them for adventuring with out a charter and they are heavily fined requiring that some magic items are sold to cover the cost. They are held in prison till the debt is paid. A visit to the charter granting agency will reveal that complaints from two noble families caused the revocation. As for the missed notification, the clerk shrugs it off as a mistake (in reality the result of a bribe). The nobles should have access to divination (scrying in particular) and so will be able to discover the best times to interfere.
Derrigan 11-28-05, 09:50 AM	If it were my campaign, I'd use it to put a new twist to the story line. As I remember my classic mysteries, the people that investigated the murders usually ended up dead themselves. As it stands, I'd try the whole sending assassins after the PC, with a foiled attempt, and add a deeper line to the story with it. Was the assassin sent by one of the two Houses? Or is the REAL culprit worried that they're getting closer... Just me, but I like the extra plot twists that could become prevalent. :D
thefallenDM 11-28-05, 10:12 AM	Maybe they're those "OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT" types. I know I am. If you just want them to obey the laws that nobles set for them, you're just railroading them. PC: I'm going to kill the King and take over the country! DM: Are you sure you want to do that? PC: Yes! This is my adventure! (a few hours later) DM: The palace guards finally manage to take you down. You wake up in the dungeon chained to the wall with no possesions or clothes... PC: WHAT!?! I can't believe this! Your Railroading me!!!! DM: WHat did you expect, you tried to take on a country's army to overthrough the government, you think you could just walk in there and do it, even at level 9? ....yeah, that's railroading.... :rolleyes: ^I do not think this is railroading, I was simply mocking the person I quoted with sarcasm. Sorry if it came across wrong. To the original poster, you are not railroading, retribution is in order. Edited to show that I was being sarcastic
Skyscraper 11-28-05, 10:34 AM	I think that some players (as opposed to PCs) tend to be obnoxious towards any type of authority when they play a character. Give them anyone that gets offended or becomes impolite, and they start throwing insults at them, noble or not. I think that this is bad roleplay from the players, as a vast majority of the popuplation would not act in such a way, because they know retribution is likely to come their way. So i think some retributation is not uncalled for. You don't have to make it something that the PCs have no way to get out of, but i'd make it really tough, for example a fight against a group of thugs that outnumber the PCs with an overall high EL. Say there are four level 5 PCs, you could get 6-7 level 4 and 1 level 6 thieves or warriors or fighters to ambush them, perhaps with the help of a level 5 spell caster. The combat doesn't need to be lethal, they could eventually try to hit them till they're all unconscious, and rob them of their belongings. (The PCs could try to recuperate said belongings, the thieves might be part of the thieve's guild that was hired by the nobles for the hit.) As for the railroading part, i obviously disagree with those that say that what you are doing is railroading. If PCs are allowed to enter any place and simply insult anyone, at the outset this is bad roleplay from them. Secondly, realistically, power-hungry nobles that have inflated egos would not allow that to remain unpunished, or else everyone would abuse them all the time and they would simply fall from their prominent positions. Letting things like that pass is not acceptable from the nobles' standpoint in my opinion. This being said, beware the DM trap: don't make it into a personal vengeance. (By your post, this doesn't seem to be the case.) You can send thugs and stuff, i think the idea is to maintain a retribution which might be very hard to overcome, but not impossible. Sky
Kintara 11-28-05, 12:31 PM	Hmmh... I did not mean for the description to sound like tight plotting. Perhaps I have misconstrued it in some way (at least I think that's the case). Would you be kind enough to point out where you see that, so I can examine it further? As for player options, I've given them authority to go where and question whomever they want. There are members of the group who prefer a bit more fighting, but I think I put in enough rabble-rousers for them to pound on so the H&Sers will get their share too. In fact one of the PCs is posing as a Cleric to Siamorphe (goddess of Royalty and Nobility) and he has a side mission (that he sought out on his own) that he must gather information on one of the noble families (not one of the two mentioned). In game he had been pursuing knowledge (and had been given quite a bit) about how a cleric to Siamorphe acts and conducts them selves and about how to treat / interact with nobles (which is Siamorphe's bread and butter). Out of game he had been asking for just such and adventure, where he could use his 'Siamoprhe Skills' more directly (which I think demonstrates his intrest in the content). So in many ways this adventure is being run for him - but he's one of the one's acting up... And I would in fact say the primary instigator of it.Well, the side quest is nice. I'm honestly not a big fan of most pre-made adventures. Even if the game doesn't go ABCDE, it often ends up feeling like ACDBE, if you know what I mean. It feels a little like a computer game where you can solve things in a different order, but doesn't feel especially dynamic. For instance, I've played through a few of the Eberron adventures, and they just sucked the energy out of the game for me. I could do whatever I want, but why go "off script," as it were? Anyway, as for your problem, I think the best solutions are to lay on the complications. The players are playing protagonists in a story, and when protagonists mess up it's bad for them, but it also makes for an interesting story. Don't get too preoccupied in making your point and punishing your players for being impudent. Show them the consequences, but then make it fun (but not necessarily rewarding for the characters). Also, be prepared for the PCs to be interested in payback. It might make for an interesting story to show what these noble houses are really like. Complicate their vision of who these people are.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-28-05, 02:35 PM	^I do not think this is railroading, I was simply mocking the person I quoted with sarcasm. Sorry if it came across wrong. To the original poster, you are not railroading, retribution is in order. Edited to show that I was being sarcastic Mock me all you want. I don't even agree with myself. I know that no sane person would just try to overthrow the government for no other reason than to overthrow it.:evillaugh
Gedrin 11-28-05, 04:23 PM	I think respectable institutions and people would avoid dealing with those who have the ire of the nobility. This would be particularly so in Cormyr, a nation that has a strong sense of loyalty to it's royalty and nobility. People that might likely refuse to deal with the PC's: Registered Wizards: I belive any wizard of significant power is required to register in Cormyr. I doubt they'd want their affairs to recieve extra scrutiny due to dealings with shady characters. "Yes, I can teleport you, but I'm not going to do so. I'd rather not find myself associated with people of your reputation." Religious Institutions: You know, those things largely supported by the donations of the nobility. Besides, if the PC's are known to misuse their power and ability, temples might well be less than eager to help them get back on their feet after they find some trouble. "Your severed foot... You see, we can't really extend extraordinary aid in the name of Tyr to those who make a habit of insulting people who've been awarded the title "defender of the faith". I'm sure you understand." Smiths: Sounds like a small thing, but the smiths that have contracts with the military, or who provide weapons to the nobility, are probably the ones you'd go to for masterwork or magical arms and armor. "You want one masterwork longsword. Well...I could sell it to you, but I'd rather sell 200 blades to the army, and I can't do both with the stink coming off you." And of course... The Army: These would be the people who patrol the roads an have the authority to detain people for being suspicious. "There are reports of bandits in the area. You are armed and are rumored to be miscreants. You'll stay with us until we can check things out." The Guard: These are the people who turn your trip into town into a three hour ordeal at the gate while they check for warrants. "Tall, brown hair, blue eyes...you fit the description of a wanted felon and I hear you're a nerdowell." The Pervasive Bureaucracy: Advanturers are genarally completely unprepared for these bastards. "It's recently come to my attention that we have no record of your taxes having been paid. Also, you must file for a permit to legally cary a wand of fireballs. Please report to the courts within a fortnight to pay your back taxes, fines for late payment, and the fine for illegally possessing a magic item of war."
LadyAthena 11-28-05, 04:50 PM	I think that a lot of this depends on whether or not the PCs as a group followed some sort of lead or reward poster that got them into this particular adventure. If so, then they should definately be using their heads more. Or did you basically tell them that this is what they were going to do? A party with bashy-bashy tendencies isn't the best for a murder mystery. Even, as a DM, if you are really excited about a campaign, you can't force groups into ill-fitting settins, lest they become bored and/or beligerent. As far as the repercussions for their actions, they deserve them. Don't tone down the repercussions. That only makes the game seem less real and also undermines your authority. You can't be afraid to kill PCs. They're an adventuring party; they're doing dangerous things everyday. Death is not only part of the game but it quite likely. For dueling, I believe that the two duelers can each choose a second (someone who will fight if for some reason the duelist cannot, i.e. breaks their arm the night before). However, I also believe that nobles or at least notables were allowed to have their second fight for them, regardless.
Ryven 11-28-05, 04:55 PM	Maybe it's not just there fault, which you seem to think. By the sounds of it your not running the kind of game they like, and won't get this through your head. So it's partially your fault. I'm sure from reading this the party would be happier looting myth draanor and rampaging through the underdark then investigating a murder. Maybe you should just let them get away with it this time, and having the merchant families escalate or strike back isn't going to do it. There are more mature ways of conveying that they're not enjoying the campaign than rampaging in game and destroying what the DM had set up. They DM isn't a mind reader. If they didnt' like the RPing in game, they could have said so, instead of acting like jerks about it, and abusing their power. They could have said "We're not really into this" and left. I say they should be at least slapped on the wrist for it, then they should be talked to so to see if they're actually enjoying the campaign.
feartheinvinceblehamster 11-28-05, 05:09 PM	There are more mature ways of conveying that they're not enjoying the campaign than rampaging in game and destroying what the DM had set up. They DM isn't a mind reader. If they didnt' like the RPing in game, they could have said so, instead of acting like jerks about it, and abusing their power. They could have said "We're not really into this" and left. I say they should be at least slapped on the wrist for it, then they should be talked to so to see if they're actually enjoying the campaign. why leave, when you can play the game you like? And why do you post in all blue, it makes your posts hard to read and annoying.
Ryven 11-28-05, 05:36 PM	Because it'd be a more mature thing to do than to trash what the DM had planned because "It's boring." They could at least speak to him abou it. And I post in blue because I like the color blue. Don't flame, please. That's annoying.
wrecan 11-28-05, 05:42 PM	Given what Wayne the Game has written about the families involved, it doesn't seem like either of them would be interested in physical retribution. Emmarask is politically motivated. Adventuring groups must be registered, right? Well, what if some bureacrat "discovered" that there was an irregularity with the group's registration. What if they were told that there was an investigation and they were not allowed to adventure until all this "nonsense" was cleared up. And what if the bureaucrat made it subtly clear that Lord Emmarask might be able to expedite matters, if he were so inclined. Meanwhile, tax assessors show up and begin tut-tutting that all treasure found previously might have to be taxed, unless this "unfortunate incident" could be cleared up. Basically, the party has a political enemy. They go eat crow in front of Emmarask, who might request that upon being re-registered, the party go on a special assignment for him, for which they can expect no compensation. As for the Huntcrowns, the most reasonable response for them is for bards throughout Cormyr (all on the payroll of the Huntcrowns) to begin singling a catchy new song called the "Buffoons of the Ball". Although no names are mentioned (protecting the bards and Huntcrowns from slander accusations), it is clear that the song is about the party. For as long as this song is played (the Huntcrowns could put a stop to it if the party humbly apologizes and gives them a bit of tribute; otherwise most people will have forgotten who the song is about after a year or so), the PCs will suffer a -4 on all social skill checks (bluff, diplomacy, disguise, intimidation) involving residents of Cormyr, due to the fact that their infamy precedes them.
Leewei 11-28-05, 05:45 PM	Please use darker shades of text in your posts. It makes them easier to read, and generally more well-received by people.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-28-05, 06:44 PM	Please use darker shades of text in your posts. It makes them easier to read, and generally more well-received by people. Yeah, and all of you stay away from accidents (and victims of accidents). Forget it, it's Chinatown!
feartheinvinceblehamster 11-28-05, 06:51 PM	Please use darker shades of text in your posts. It makes them easier to read, and generally more well-received by people. Nope, sorry Leewei. That's considered flame now, I'm gonna have to report you!!! :D
mcmurphy510 11-28-05, 10:37 PM	I think respectable institutions and people would avoid dealing with those who have the ire of the nobility. This would be particularly so in Cormyr, a nation that has a strong sense of loyalty to it's royalty and nobility... These are all good ideas. If they are somehow able to complete their investigation, they stand to make friends of a couple of nolbe families (if things are done right). They would be forced to go to institutions and people that are allied with those noble familes, avoiding others.
mcmurphy510 11-28-05, 10:53 PM	...I'm honestly not a big fan of most pre-made adventures. Even if the game doesn't go ABCDE, it often ends up feeling like ACDBE, if you know what I mean. It feels a little like a computer game where you can solve things in a different order... I agree. I use premade adventures VERY rarely. I think this is the first one i've used in this campaign (5+ years). The only reason I used it was to facilitate this side mission in a way that the whole party could get involved (without them realizing it). I was drawing a blank on how to do that, so I turned to 4FC. And being a mystery, rather than your typical go along and fight several bad guys and then the 'boss' adventure, I figured it would feel different. Anyway, as for your problem, I think the best solutions are to lay on the complications. The players are playing protagonists in a story, and when protagonists mess up it's bad for them, but it also makes for an interesting story. Don't get too preoccupied in making your point and punishing your players for being impudent. Show them the consequences, but then make it fun (but not necessarily rewarding for the characters). Also, be prepared for the PCs to be interested in payback. It might make for an interesting story to show what these noble houses are really like. Complicate their vision of who these people are. Ture... reading some of the other posts regarding the noble houses, I'm not sure that revenge (at least directly) is something they would do. But, I have also read on another board (Realms-L, I think) of cases where the some of noble houses are not above employing thugs or assassins to take care of some matters. I dont think that this would qualify, however. The course of their investigation is, however, altered due to their actions.
mcmurphy510 11-28-05, 11:04 PM	I think that a lot of this depends on whether or not the PCs as a group followed some sort of lead or reward poster that got them into this particular adventure. If so, then they should definately be using their heads more. Or did you basically tell them that this is what they were going to do?... I try to run a very open ended game, where the PC can go where they want. The PCs had just completed a mission for the King and were returning to speak to him. His advisor came out instead, telling the PCs that the King could not see them presently, but they were invited to the party where the murder eventually took place. I was not even sure if they would bite on the party invite - it was just one of several hooks that was placed out there for the party to bite on (not the mention each of their personal / other party goals that have no 'hooks' per se). Maybe my problem is just the opposite of what has been mentioned previously. Prehaps I allow too much freedom as to where they go and what they do. Sometimes they'll follow up on a lead or go to a place where there is not much going on in the world. If I have events planned for places A,B,C,D and E and they decide to go to F (where there logically would be nothing going on) they end up feeling like they wated their time... ... but isn't that the case in real life sometimes too?
Talonz 11-29-05, 04:23 AM	I think Wrecan nailed this on the head. They will suffer retribution, but it will be in a form fitting the house. (revocation of charter/writ via one, slander via the other). My players typically know better than to tempt fate via such stupid action against key and powerful npcs. Not only will that door be shut in their face, they WILL suffer for it. One more idea; have them summoned to court and fined for abuse of authority, whatnot. Hit them in their pocketbooks as it were.
Cantankerous 11-29-05, 04:50 AM	DM coddling, letting the Players get away with something as outright STUPID as abusing a sinecure granted them to investigate a crime without having it blow up in their faces grotesquely is TEACHING the Players that this is what you EXPECT or want them to do. Sometimes, when you've made a mess of things as a DM, you just have to bite the bullet and correct it even if it does make other things more difficult. Too, admit that YOU were wrong in coddling them in the first place, but that now it's going to be adressed. Simply remind them to put themselves in the shoes of the people they are interacting with. Let them tell you what THEY would do if they were rich, powerful noblemen and some pissant commoner who happens to have been (wrongly) given a little authority by the King insults them so gravely. Likely, if they are at all honest, they'll solve your problem for you and all but break their asses trying to backpedal out of the situation as fast as they can. Isshia
Necron99 11-30-05, 03:01 PM	Political: If the party owns any kind of real estate in Cormyr, it could be re-assesed at a (ridiculously) higher value, forcing them to sell or pay up. A business could be audited for back taxes or safety/employment abuses. If anyone in the group has a title granted by a registered organization (such as Knight, Justicar, Paladin, etc), they could come under an official review to address conduct or trumped-up financial shenanigans. All it would take is a little lobbying for a noble to gain an ally on the review board. If any of the PCs are members of an organization (guilds or churches), they can be accused of treachery or misconduct and threatened with expulsion. The grantor of the Writ they now hold could come under political assault as well, with public accusations of the PCs misconduct and a percieved link between the grantor and the party. Might be a good way for a Noble to gain some power by dealing with the grantor for some concessions (tax breaks, seats on councils, etc). Lots of towns have "scoundrel lists" that will immediately send the offenders straight to the city limits, escorted by the city watch. "If we see you back here, you are going to the guardhouse." No one knows exactly WHY anyone is on the list, and the guards don't care. Rumors could spread among merchants that the group is using magiked-up money, that turns to dust after 24 hours. Any merchant who deals with any offended noble family would have the good sense to refuse to deal with the party. Even if the Noble has no deals with, say, a certain innkeeper, all it would take is to buy up all the unused hotel rooms in town. The party sleeps in a barn, sweet! I also like the idea of an Agent Provocateur here - a weasly political flunky who dogs the party every step of the way, inciting rumors and whispering threats to merchants and town officials. They should notice him (and he should taunt them a little), and get really POed. Of course, he is there expressly as a target to incite the party to an actionable breach of the law. If he is harmed, a second party will immediately call down the wrath of the law on thier heads. I could go on, but you get the idea.