Bad DM! BAD! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bad DM! BAD! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
stephenKingMinion
08-22-04, 11:33 AM Okay, okay. I love DMing, but sometimes I want to just play for a while. The problem is, the only person who wants to DM is this person named Monkeydude, one of my players. Nobody, including me and the other players, really wants him to DM just about ever. His style is "very difficult and unforgiving with little detail" as my friend put it.

How should I go about fixing the situation, and how do you think I should do this?

Possibilities:
A) Tell him not to DM
B) Give him an obscene amount of pointers.
C) Your idea here??
Kilsek of Sheverash
08-22-04, 12:22 PM It's like any game or sport, most everyone needs coaching and practice to get better - or in some cases, to simply try something for the first time (like DMing).

I'm usually the DM 90% of the time, and it's tough bc I do want to play once in a while, so I know where you're coming from.

That said, find opportunities to "talk DMing" with anyone who's interested, or who you think would make a good DM, including this guy. Take a look at your players and ask yourself, "Could this guy make a good DM - with or without some coaching?"

I have only a few regular players that have the time, creative ability, organizational skills, committment and want-to to make good DMs. Let's be honest, DMing is much more time consuming and difficult to master than playing a single PC.

"Good DMing," the next level where your games come to life and people WANT to play in them, is especially hard to master. Commitment, time, practice, tapping into talent, developing skills, patience and coaching (if available) will get someone there.

If you want other good DMs besides yourself, remember that it's almost your responsibility to help them get there. Play in their games, offer advice between-sessions (bc during can be too overwhelming and sound too critical, so tread carefully here). Ask THEM what questions they have for you - don't just barrage them with tip after tip. Focus more on what they're really interested in or curious about or want to do better as DM. When you play in newer DM's games as a player, you also know EXACTLY what do to as a player to make the DM's life easier - so do it!

Including keeping your character sheet up to date, immediately going to the specific page in the PHB when a rules question comes up, leading and enouraging the roleplaying of your character and all characters, helping to keep combat and the story moving by bringing energy and getting everyone's opinion and involvement on party decisions, etc.

And what you're also doing here by default is setting an example and showing everyone what your idea of a "Great Player" is too, and that'll only help you when you go back to DMing in the future.

Hope that helps, good luck! :behold: :eek: :cool:
Lxarth
08-22-04, 12:38 PM There is a couple people that i will let DM, but I refuse to play with them. Basicaly its "If you want to DM, I'm not playing"

It may sound childish...but one time this DM (we are 1st level) attacked us was a cavalry unit of 'badits' or what have you (it was in the Whell of Time d20, and I have no idea about this world). So we are attacked by people with a level or 2 in fighters and a leader of like 3rd level. I could be way wrong here.

Anyways....we got slaughtered...come to find out he was expecting us to surrender. Now thats bad DMing...dont make an encounter 'expecting' the PC's to act a certain way.

Thats the smallest mistake a DM made...another was makeing a train that we had to get on and it would take us to our next adventure....yaaa....fun.

What i am trying to get at is if you dont think he is gonna be a good DM (since you said he had DMed before) then dont...tell him you dont like his style, or whatever.

Or...if you do dicide to let him run the game tell him before hand that he needs to be open to 'constructive critisism'. That way you are clear to roast his game after the session.
fruits and vegetables
08-22-04, 03:43 PM it's practically impossible to change people. The friends i got have played the same way since i have known them. They all have some bad flaws. I have pointed it out to them. They like their flaws better than changing them.

My advice, do not let him DM you. If you do let him then just try and have as much fun as you can. Do not get to upset by his gaming style since you know what it is and you still played anyway.

Give him advice if you want. My experience tells me it will do little good.

Similar topic,
Has anyone given advice to someone and they just accept it? Most times they might listen but then tell you their reasons on why they do things their way. Often it seems to end with no opinion change, just a disagreement on how things should be handled.
Kilsek of Sheverash
08-22-04, 03:51 PM Originally posted by fruits and vegetables
Similar topic,
Has anyone given advice to someone and they just accept it? Most times they might listen but then tell you their reasons on why they do things their way. Often it seems to end with no opinion change, just a disagreement on how things should be handled.

Sure, that happens a lot. DMs feel pretty strongly on how they run their games. What bothers me the most is when they deviate TOO much from the core rules without sensible justification. Or if they DON'T use the core rules at all for certain things. To me, that's just an uninformed lazy DM - read the rules first, then break them if you want, and give everyone a good reason why. That's a reasonable approach most anyone cand deal with, even if they don't agree with the reason, because at least it was well thought out and considered.

So getting back to your specific question. I think both DMs and players need to be very clear WHY they are doing something different from the core rules, or why they interpret them in a different way. "It's stupid" is not a reason. Break it down to find out exactly what is stupid about a rule - it is not "realistic," is it never going to come up, is it too weak or broken, etc., etc.

Plus when having this discussions or disagreements, the ultimate goal should always be the same: "Is this change or interpretation good for the game?"

And finally, I don't go looking to give advice. People, especially DMs, often immediatley take it as criticism, not friendly advice. So instead I ask questions, like "Why do you do X this way?" instead. This way I can get their point of view first, which I may not have known, and therefore could impact my original take.
Airsucker
08-22-04, 06:29 PM (I humbly beg WotCs forgivness for suggesting this. Please remember that I do push your products often, especially at work.)

Maybe you should have him run a different, easier system, or ask for a module, like Sunless Citadel?

"I really want to play through this, could you run it, so I can try it out?"
danielinthewolvesden
08-22-04, 06:45 PM Well, I can't see them taking offense as what you seem to be indicating they he can maybe be trained on an easier system- before he graduates to the"Big Time". Now and then, they have put out easier versions of D&D, so perhaps that's another way to go. Good idea, tho.
seagreenwitch
08-23-04, 04:45 AM I think that the idea of a module would be a good idea. But tell him you are suggesting it, so that he can get a feel for DMing. I know that sometimes it can be overwhelming at times for people and simply put some people are not suited to DMing. If it is really that bad do what I did at the end of my first few times Dming. I asked people to rate what I did honestly, and if after a few sessions he is really that horrid then tell him because if you don't then it will only be worse in the long run. I think that honesty is always the best policy.

seagreenwitch
Thanqol
08-23-04, 06:53 AM I know your pain.

I have the same problem, with an idiot who wants to scrap every rulebook, setting, idea, and everything else and base the game on Half-life. Seriously. He wants to use the manual as the DMG. He wants us to respawn when we get shot. And then he decides to stop playing until it's his turn to DM. When he comes for his turn, he'll find my door locked and windows barred.

Sorry about that rant which somehow worked it's way in there.

Either way, you can insist on hearing of his campaign world before hand, and point out logical impossibilitys, and tell him to have a fully prepared, multi-directional world before he starts. Or, you could ask him how his world is different from the normal D&D world, and why he's changing it. If he can't explain why, he doesn't know what he's doing. So, if you really want to play, hand the title over to another, compitent, player, and give that player some coaching, and see how that works out.

(NOTE: It's always good to try a few subquests based in the aspiring DM's world before you see if you want to do it or not.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stephenKingMinion 08-22-04, 11:33 AM	Okay, okay. I love DMing, but sometimes I want to just play for a while. The problem is, the only person who wants to DM is this person named Monkeydude, one of my players. Nobody, including me and the other players, really wants him to DM just about ever. His style is "very difficult and unforgiving with little detail" as my friend put it. How should I go about fixing the situation, and how do you think I should do this? Possibilities: A) Tell him not to DM B) Give him an obscene amount of pointers. C) Your idea here??
Kilsek of Sheverash 08-22-04, 12:22 PM	It's like any game or sport, most everyone needs coaching and practice to get better - or in some cases, to simply try something for the first time (like DMing). I'm usually the DM 90% of the time, and it's tough bc I do want to play once in a while, so I know where you're coming from. That said, find opportunities to "talk DMing" with anyone who's interested, or who you think would make a good DM, including this guy. Take a look at your players and ask yourself, "Could this guy make a good DM - with or without some coaching?" I have only a few regular players that have the time, creative ability, organizational skills, committment and want-to to make good DMs. Let's be honest, DMing is much more time consuming and difficult to master than playing a single PC. "Good DMing," the next level where your games come to life and people WANT to play in them, is especially hard to master. Commitment, time, practice, tapping into talent, developing skills, patience and coaching (if available) will get someone there. If you want other good DMs besides yourself, remember that it's almost your responsibility to help them get there. Play in their games, offer advice between-sessions (bc during can be too overwhelming and sound too critical, so tread carefully here). Ask THEM what questions they have for you - don't just barrage them with tip after tip. Focus more on what they're really interested in or curious about or want to do better as DM. When you play in newer DM's games as a player, you also know EXACTLY what do to as a player to make the DM's life easier - so do it! Including keeping your character sheet up to date, immediately going to the specific page in the PHB when a rules question comes up, leading and enouraging the roleplaying of your character and all characters, helping to keep combat and the story moving by bringing energy and getting everyone's opinion and involvement on party decisions, etc. And what you're also doing here by default is setting an example and showing everyone what your idea of a "Great Player" is too, and that'll only help you when you go back to DMing in the future. Hope that helps, good luck! :behold: :eek: :cool:
Lxarth 08-22-04, 12:38 PM	There is a couple people that i will let DM, but I refuse to play with them. Basicaly its "If you want to DM, I'm not playing" It may sound childish...but one time this DM (we are 1st level) attacked us was a cavalry unit of 'badits' or what have you (it was in the Whell of Time d20, and I have no idea about this world). So we are attacked by people with a level or 2 in fighters and a leader of like 3rd level. I could be way wrong here. Anyways....we got slaughtered...come to find out he was expecting us to surrender. Now thats bad DMing...dont make an encounter 'expecting' the PC's to act a certain way. Thats the smallest mistake a DM made...another was makeing a train that we had to get on and it would take us to our next adventure....yaaa....fun. What i am trying to get at is if you dont think he is gonna be a good DM (since you said he had DMed before) then dont...tell him you dont like his style, or whatever. Or...if you do dicide to let him run the game tell him before hand that he needs to be open to 'constructive critisism'. That way you are clear to roast his game after the session.
fruits and vegetables 08-22-04, 03:43 PM	it's practically impossible to change people. The friends i got have played the same way since i have known them. They all have some bad flaws. I have pointed it out to them. They like their flaws better than changing them. My advice, do not let him DM you. If you do let him then just try and have as much fun as you can. Do not get to upset by his gaming style since you know what it is and you still played anyway. Give him advice if you want. My experience tells me it will do little good. Similar topic, Has anyone given advice to someone and they just accept it? Most times they might listen but then tell you their reasons on why they do things their way. Often it seems to end with no opinion change, just a disagreement on how things should be handled.
Kilsek of Sheverash 08-22-04, 03:51 PM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables Similar topic, Has anyone given advice to someone and they just accept it? Most times they might listen but then tell you their reasons on why they do things their way. Often it seems to end with no opinion change, just a disagreement on how things should be handled. Sure, that happens a lot. DMs feel pretty strongly on how they run their games. What bothers me the most is when they deviate TOO much from the core rules without sensible justification. Or if they DON'T use the core rules at all for certain things. To me, that's just an uninformed lazy DM - read the rules first, then break them if you want, and give everyone a good reason why. That's a reasonable approach most anyone cand deal with, even if they don't agree with the reason, because at least it was well thought out and considered. So getting back to your specific question. I think both DMs and players need to be very clear WHY they are doing something different from the core rules, or why they interpret them in a different way. "It's stupid" is not a reason. Break it down to find out exactly what is stupid about a rule - it is not "realistic," is it never going to come up, is it too weak or broken, etc., etc. Plus when having this discussions or disagreements, the ultimate goal should always be the same: "Is this change or interpretation good for the game?" And finally, I don't go looking to give advice. People, especially DMs, often immediatley take it as criticism, not friendly advice. So instead I ask questions, like "Why do you do X this way?" instead. This way I can get their point of view first, which I may not have known, and therefore could impact my original take.
Airsucker 08-22-04, 06:29 PM	(I humbly beg WotCs forgivness for suggesting this. Please remember that I do push your products often, especially at work.) Maybe you should have him run a different, easier system, or ask for a module, like Sunless Citadel? "I really want to play through this, could you run it, so I can try it out?"
danielinthewolvesden 08-22-04, 06:45 PM	Well, I can't see them taking offense as what you seem to be indicating they he can maybe be trained on an easier system- before he graduates to the"Big Time". Now and then, they have put out easier versions of D&D, so perhaps that's another way to go. Good idea, tho.
seagreenwitch 08-23-04, 04:45 AM	I think that the idea of a module would be a good idea. But tell him you are suggesting it, so that he can get a feel for DMing. I know that sometimes it can be overwhelming at times for people and simply put some people are not suited to DMing. If it is really that bad do what I did at the end of my first few times Dming. I asked people to rate what I did honestly, and if after a few sessions he is really that horrid then tell him because if you don't then it will only be worse in the long run. I think that honesty is always the best policy. seagreenwitch
Thanqol 08-23-04, 06:53 AM	I know your pain. I have the same problem, with an idiot who wants to scrap every rulebook, setting, idea, and everything else and base the game on Half-life. Seriously. He wants to use the manual as the DMG. He wants us to respawn when we get shot. And then he decides to stop playing until it's his turn to DM. When he comes for his turn, he'll find my door locked and windows barred. Sorry about that rant which somehow worked it's way in there. Either way, you can insist on hearing of his campaign world before hand, and point out logical impossibilitys, and tell him to have a fully prepared, multi-directional world before he starts. Or, you could ask him how his world is different from the normal D&D world, and why he's changing it. If he can't explain why, he doesn't know what he's doing. So, if you really want to play, hand the title over to another, compitent, player, and give that player some coaching, and see how that works out. (NOTE: It's always good to try a few subquests based in the aspiring DM's world before you see if you want to do it or not.)