Bad DM? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Bad DM? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
vactus
04-30-07, 11:29 PM I've been playing for about a year or so and this past January we needed a game to play since the DM of the night wasn't ready. We play multiple games a week, each with a different player being the DM of their own campaign. So I decide to run a one shot gladiator game with the ECL of 5th. No problems since as an experiment I made no restrictions on class/race combos. If it was written and if we had the book (we have all books) then it's legal. I then get asked to roll these chars into a real campaign. To get some exp I say sure.

So I have a lvl 12 half-dragon/human monk, human ninja, human ranger, and a hellbred warlock/hellfirewarlock. It ended up being broken and they were easily able to get past any challenge I set forth. I really wanted to run a legit game though so I informed them that the game would be ending and I'd be running a game based out of the Frostburn book and it wouldn't be broken. Frostburn races only and classes from any book was available unless I said otherwise, like ninja. New game starts at lvl 5.

Neaderthal Pally, Uldra Rogue, Snow Elf Hunter (ok, I screwed myself by allowing even some non dnd chars... ie WoW chars) and a Human Sorc and a Human fighter. I have this HUGE storyline drawn up and the players are loving it. I initially based it off an old Baldurs Gate expansion for the PC... and the pally died. I raped him... yeah, I cheated as a DM... no doubt on this one. It was bad. Apologized many times and we put it behind us.

Now we get to my big problem. This group, if everyone or even most of the party shows, can really turn out some damage with a halfing druid and human bard joining the group. A couple of the players are very resourceful the others not so much. I constantly throw them against encounters that they may or most likely won't survive... to the point I've had to fudge rolls to save a life or two I wasn't ready to have end. They just hit level 8 this past Thursday. The pally guy re-rolled a monk and is loving the new char, so we're all good there. This past session kind of peeved one or two of the players off.

Quest: Rescue dwarven female from kidnappers. After almost losing entire dex and str to poisons the rogue finally gets them to where they need to be thanks to a series of traps that have clues to where to go. They arrive. The bad guy here is a sorc with illusion cast to look like an old lady... and the monk takes her out no problem thanks to surprise round/winning initiative... however two CR 12 golems come around the corner and jack their world up... sort of. The bard goes down, the hunter can't get passed the DR and the rogue is just standing there trying to do dmg... Long story short they make it buy only cause the monk decided killing the golems was a bad idea and just went for the kidnapped girl upstairs and they took off out the back. Go go speed 20 golems lol.

The point of this is that... I don't think a game should be overly easy. I've played games where we just roll through stuff no prob. I want them to actually figure out creative ways to get pass encounters instead of just fighting things. But some of the less intuitive players aren't enjoying it while the majority is. I mean, no one enjoys almost losing their char every game or every major encounter but I try to balance it out to the best I can... Random encounters are usually a couple CRs below the party avg so that isn't the problem... but they can make CR appropriate stuff become a challenge and almost end it all... usually their saving grace is me rolling really freakin low on the d20.

*sigh* This is overly long winded. Just want to know am I going down the right path? Or should I try something different? The three DMs in our group (including me) have very different styles of running a game so it's hard to determine with them... espcially since the other two are my resourceful players who will try to think outside the box if possible. I just don't want to lose half my group because they just want to fight all the time and aren't able to since there is a story and there is more to life besides fighting. Sorry for the longnessity of this.

(also it's a low magic item game for the most part... they finally got to a city that has a place to purchase magic items from and not do just special orders)
TobaWareho
04-30-07, 11:39 PM Lol, you have the same problem I have in my group. Also, my(as you put) less resourceful players dont know D&D very well, so they grow dependent on asking questions.

Heres what I did.

Naturally, your resourceful players will naturally fall into a leadership role, because following uncreative players will lead to a boring campaign for all.

So... give your less ingenious players bonus xp any time they do anything more resourceful than whackin it with thier sword. I managed this by doing things in a more urban campaign, instead of dungeons, because your options for story and intriuge are higher in a city setting imo.

Now, back to yoru question if your doing the right thing. Think of every fantasy story youve ever read or heard. Someone ALWAYS almost dies, or does die. Thus the realism. If Conan the Barbarian just steamrolled his enemys every time, you wouldnt have a movie. Keep throwing tough stuff at them.

As my friend put it, the hardest thing to learn, yet the funnest, is you cant always win the fight. Sometimes, you arnt meant to. Its figureing out when to run or when to stun thats the best part.
TobaWareho
04-30-07, 11:44 PM BTW, challenging my players has really worked for me now. Monster CR's are at about +3-4 per encounter, and we usually only have about 3 players. Keep challenging em, theyll catch on lol.

I now make parties of NPC's designed to kill the party, and have come to depend on them being able to outsmart me.
Charlym_Zuardan
04-30-07, 11:58 PM seems to me that if you are ticking off off your players, (and you obviously know you are doing it and HOW you are doing it) then the best advice would be to try something different.

as a DM you need to make a game that your players are going to enjoy just as much as you do.

"... and the pally died. I raped him... yeah, I cheated as a DM... no doubt on this one"

"I constantly throw them against encounters that they may or most likely won't survive..."

"After almost losing entire dex and str to poisons the rogue finally gets them to where they need to be "

These comments jump out at me and make it seem like you are trying to kill off your players all the time, and thats just not fun for them.

the game shouldnt be overly easy, but it shouldnt be overly hard either.

tone it down a little, remember that the average encounter is supposed to use up around 20% of thier resources. If you think that is too easy and they shouldnt be able to roll through 4 or 5 encounters without stopping then up it to 35 or 40% of thier resources per encounter.
Necrosis
05-01-07, 12:00 AM I have simlar issues and use large CR's, hte PC's can laways run away! BUT I also use luck points-like action points in ebberon but more rare, and much more powerful-they allow maximisation of any single dice(except HD) or a dice to be re-rolled. They are awarded as plot rewards.
vactus
05-01-07, 12:12 AM seems to me that if you are ticking off off your players, (and you obviously know you are doing it and HOW you are doing it) then the best advice would be to try something different.

as a DM you need to make a game that your players are going to enjoy just as much as you do.

"... and the pally died. I raped him... yeah, I cheated as a DM... no doubt on this one"

"I constantly throw them against encounters that they may or most likely won't survive..."

"After almost losing entire dex and str to poisons the rogue finally gets them to where they need to be "

These comments jump out at me and make it seem like you are trying to kill off your players all the time, and thats just not fun for them.

the game shouldnt be overly easy, but it shouldnt be overly hard either.

tone it down a little, remember that the average encounter is supposed to use up around 20% of thier resources. If you think that is too easy and they shouldnt be able to roll through 4 or 5 encounters without stopping then up it to 35 or 40% of thier resources per encounter.

I guess the biggest problem would finding a good medium with the players since it is a diverse group as far as experience goes. I should note though that the rogue normally rolls high reflex saves... he was just having a bad night that night. But yeah... tone down some, gotcha.

I'm really not "trying" to kill them so much as challenge them. Suppose I'm trying too hard though lol.
Charlym_Zuardan
05-01-07, 12:28 AM "I'm really not "trying" to kill them so much as challenge them."

fair enough, hard to say without knowing your group though, but have you asked them what kind of game they like playing? or ask them what kind of encounters they find challenging, be it puzzles, traps, tough combat opponents, roleplaying, or a mix of everything.

see what kind of challenges they enjoy and take it from there.

also if you have most of your campaign planned out already get copies of thier character sheets, then the day before your next game session, take a look at some of the harder encounters that they will be facing that session and run a test fight, see how well the characters do and if need be you can adjust the difficulty up or down.
DFoster
05-01-07, 09:07 AM Okay from your post I'm getting that you have a group of 7 PCs in total all level 8, and in your last encounter you put them up against 2 CR 12 Golems.

This is an extremely hard fight just looking at the fact the encounter level is 14 and the average party level is 9.6. Add in the additional fact that a lot of higher CR creatures tend to have immunities and resistances that are hard to bypass unless you are within 2 levels of their CR, this fight is pretty much guaranteed to result in a TPK (total party kill) unless your PCs are extremely optimised, happens to have gear specifically designed to counter certain of the Golems immunities and resistances (like for example Adamantine Weapons to bypass the DR), or happen to have significantly more gear then is appropriate for their level. I'd need to see the specific Golems stats as well as the PCs to give a final (and more accurate) predicated result.

If you want to send encounters 4 levels above the PCs you might consider having the individual creatures be not quite so strong but having more numerous foes. i.e. perhaps a Boss of CR 11, and a bunch of say 6 CR 8 minions still be a very tough fight but the slightly lower CRs will make it less likely that they are totally out of the PCs league when it comes to special abilities and resistances and immunities.
mightymouse1107
05-01-07, 09:50 AM Next person who mentions CR or the recommended wealth table gets bonked on the head with a DMG.

Look, here's the thing. The DMG is the single most useless book in the game, with the exception of one or two splat books. When I'm talking to new players about what to buy when they start, I say "Absolutely DO NOT buy the DMG. The recommended wealth/encouter tables will become a crutch for you, so you won't learn to feel out your players/the game/your world flavor as well."

The golems were a perfectly legitimate encounter. I've had a party in similar situations take down much tougher challenges, while being defeated by weaker ones. There's a lot that goes into encounter difficulty, much more than just crunching the numbers. When putting it out there, ask yourself:

(A) is the encounter appropriate for what the PC's are getting themselves into in the world at large? (if 2nd level PC's decide to try to assassinate the emperor of the world's largest empire, don't say "well, the CR shouldn't be too high because they can't handle it." Instead say "they should know better, and would if they were actually trying not to get their characters killed." Then give them the chance to see what would be waiting for them. If they persist anyway, laugh as the 12th level bodyguards TPK them in one round.)

(B) does it feel like something they can survive? (earlier example of party stupidity notwithstanding) Not roll over, not anything else, but does it feel like you are using your DM powers to unfairly deprive them of the ability to keep their own characters alive? If yes, you should tone it down. If no, then feel free to have at them. But be flexible. If you miscalculated and they get away but are all nearly dead, maybe that second encounter you had planned can wait.

There's so much math in DND its easy to want to reduce it to numbers. (CR, recommended wealth, percentage of resources taken up, etc.) Those tables may be helpful guidelines for some, but in my (since 1e, through 2e, and joyfully embraced 3e) considerable experience, the more encounters you put together saying "this looks neat" the faster you'll get a feel for what works and what doesn't in a given situation with a given party, and the more you'll be able to precisely control how challenging your game is.

My players tell me that the two most fun encounters they have are fighting hard against something that nearly kills them, and they barely win/get away...

And fighting something similar four levels later and blowing it away. It gives you perspective on how far your character has come.
Bob Loblaw
05-01-07, 10:15 AM If you really want to know if you are doing something wrong, ask you players. They will let you know how your DMing is going.

As for the DMG being the most worthless book, I have to disagree. I suggest reading it often. Get to know Chapters 1, 2, and 3 very well. The guidelines put forth are supported with data on how the game is desgined. Once you understand how things like Wealth and Encounter Levels work, you can make better adjustments to your game as you adjust the powerlevel of the characters. Everything mightymouse mentions is actually covered in those first 3 chapters. I guess it's about as useful as his advice ;)

I really want to reiterate what I first mentioned. If your players are having fun, then you aren't doing anything "wrong." The goal is to enjoy the game and the time with your friends. If you've accomplished that, then you're doing fine.
RobbyPants
05-01-07, 10:31 AM ... however two CR 12 golems come around the corner and jack their world up... sort of. The bard goes down, the hunter can't get passed the DR and the rogue is just standing there trying to do dmg... Long story short they make it buy only cause the monk decided killing the golems was a bad idea and just went for the kidnapped girl upstairs and they took off out the back. Go go speed 20 golems lol.
I'm not sure from your post if this was intentional or not, but it worked out great. It can be a nice learning experience for the players to have their PCs thrown up against a nearly-invicible foe, that they can easily escape from. Once the PCs (and players) learn the value of running (at the right times), they will go a long way toward being more resourseful. It can be tricky for some players to think outside the box.

A great way to motivate them (without extreme railroading) is to offer two paths: one straight-forward but difficult, and one hard-to-find but easy. Once the players get in the hang of looking for ways around the tough obsticle, they begin to work smarter not harder. Of course, a potential problem is that they might assume that there will always be some sneaky way around something. Hopefully, they'll be realistic about it, and throw in the towel if their beaten.
daggeroflath
05-01-07, 10:49 AM The CR and other formulae based measurements are the best feature of 3.5. Yes, I can calculate the difficulty of an encounter myself but I really don't want to waste my time with such things. At the very least it's nice to have a starting point for figuring such things out.

After a few months playing exalted, where they don't have any CR tables or wealth by XP equivalents, I'm really really enjoying the ease of D&D.
Lazigothi
05-01-07, 03:44 PM I would also agree that the 3.5 DMG is a resourceful book for me. I would always recommend anyone to research something without automatically dismissing it. One person's garbage is another person's treasure trove. I remember the old 2ed books, and the 3.5 core books seemed very synchronized with checks and balances of importance to play the game by comparison. I'd say the old 2ed DMG was worthless, but I'd assume others might find usefulness with it.
The CR's have helped me considerably to gauge the appropriate encounter for characters. The treasure tables have likewise helped me figure out a good estimate for awards. The 3.5 DMG also mentions that everything is meant as a guide and not a binding crutch. The prime directive calls for fun, and the game is going well as long as everyone is enjoying it.
I agree with the above remark that if you and the players are having fun, then there is nothing wrong.

My approach to encounters is to communicate with players to determine what they want and then to give it to them. If they want brutal, I can deliver. If they want politics or puzzles, I can do the same. However, only if they want their characters to die for the story, do I kill off characters. If I know that the party doesn't have any effectiveness against a type of creature, I won't put that creature in. If the party wants to face the powerful creature with resistances and such, and desperately wants to fight it, I'll make sure the party first encounters rumors and stories about how powerful the BBEG is, that weapons break against it's skin, or that flame just makes the BBEG laugh.
daggeroflath
05-01-07, 04:54 PM I'd say the old 2ed DMG was worthless, but I'd assume others might find usefulness with it.

I miss the 2e PHB more. That book really had something. The DMG seemed lacklustre back then.
Bob Loblaw
05-02-07, 12:56 AM 1st edtion DMG was probably one of the best resources I've ever owned. For AD&D at the time, it was incredible. There is a lot of the information in there that is still useful in 3.5.
vactus
05-02-07, 08:35 PM Lots of info in here... Thanks. :) I personally like the DMG, but I played 2nd ed once in a Dark Sun campaign and don't remember anything about 2nd ed other than loving my dwarf.

I've talked to my players and some of them realize that just standing and fighting is a bad thing, however they said that sometimes it does feel like I'm out to get them vs trying to try new things. It just took some talking to figure out that the half of the group that is newer at all this was just wanting to play "whack-a-mole".

So it seems everything is working better now. Heh, as my first real campaign it seems to be going very well now.
maharai23
05-02-07, 09:55 PM The real challenge is giving everyone a chance to shine. Some people, who are less resourceful, need to have situations where they are the only one with the necessary skils to get by.

Some players will try to jump in the spotlight. Every so often, as the DM, you need to turn that spotlight somewhere else, let other players get a moment. Everyone needs to feel like they're doing something.

After all is said and done, some players really just want to swing their sword at something. Let them. But if a player likes roleplaying, make sure there's time for that.

Ultimately, the job of the DM is to balance everything. It can be tough. Usually, people DM'ing for the first few times are going to SUCK. I know I did. But, as with everything else, you learn with practice, and soon, you'll have the pc's showing up every session, and spending half their out of session time, talking about your game. Then you know you're doing something right.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vactus 04-30-07, 11:29 PM	I've been playing for about a year or so and this past January we needed a game to play since the DM of the night wasn't ready. We play multiple games a week, each with a different player being the DM of their own campaign. So I decide to run a one shot gladiator game with the ECL of 5th. No problems since as an experiment I made no restrictions on class/race combos. If it was written and if we had the book (we have all books) then it's legal. I then get asked to roll these chars into a real campaign. To get some exp I say sure. So I have a lvl 12 half-dragon/human monk, human ninja, human ranger, and a hellbred warlock/hellfirewarlock. It ended up being broken and they were easily able to get past any challenge I set forth. I really wanted to run a legit game though so I informed them that the game would be ending and I'd be running a game based out of the Frostburn book and it wouldn't be broken. Frostburn races only and classes from any book was available unless I said otherwise, like ninja. New game starts at lvl 5. Neaderthal Pally, Uldra Rogue, Snow Elf Hunter (ok, I screwed myself by allowing even some non dnd chars... ie WoW chars) and a Human Sorc and a Human fighter. I have this HUGE storyline drawn up and the players are loving it. I initially based it off an old Baldurs Gate expansion for the PC... and the pally died. I raped him... yeah, I cheated as a DM... no doubt on this one. It was bad. Apologized many times and we put it behind us. Now we get to my big problem. This group, if everyone or even most of the party shows, can really turn out some damage with a halfing druid and human bard joining the group. A couple of the players are very resourceful the others not so much. I constantly throw them against encounters that they may or most likely won't survive... to the point I've had to fudge rolls to save a life or two I wasn't ready to have end. They just hit level 8 this past Thursday. The pally guy re-rolled a monk and is loving the new char, so we're all good there. This past session kind of peeved one or two of the players off. Quest: Rescue dwarven female from kidnappers. After almost losing entire dex and str to poisons the rogue finally gets them to where they need to be thanks to a series of traps that have clues to where to go. They arrive. The bad guy here is a sorc with illusion cast to look like an old lady... and the monk takes her out no problem thanks to surprise round/winning initiative... however two CR 12 golems come around the corner and jack their world up... sort of. The bard goes down, the hunter can't get passed the DR and the rogue is just standing there trying to do dmg... Long story short they make it buy only cause the monk decided killing the golems was a bad idea and just went for the kidnapped girl upstairs and they took off out the back. Go go speed 20 golems lol. The point of this is that... I don't think a game should be overly easy. I've played games where we just roll through stuff no prob. I want them to actually figure out creative ways to get pass encounters instead of just fighting things. But some of the less intuitive players aren't enjoying it while the majority is. I mean, no one enjoys almost losing their char every game or every major encounter but I try to balance it out to the best I can... Random encounters are usually a couple CRs below the party avg so that isn't the problem... but they can make CR appropriate stuff become a challenge and almost end it all... usually their saving grace is me rolling really freakin low on the d20. sigh This is overly long winded. Just want to know am I going down the right path? Or should I try something different? The three DMs in our group (including me) have very different styles of running a game so it's hard to determine with them... espcially since the other two are my resourceful players who will try to think outside the box if possible. I just don't want to lose half my group because they just want to fight all the time and aren't able to since there is a story and there is more to life besides fighting. Sorry for the longnessity of this. (also it's a low magic item game for the most part... they finally got to a city that has a place to purchase magic items from and not do just special orders)
TobaWareho 04-30-07, 11:39 PM	Lol, you have the same problem I have in my group. Also, my(as you put) less resourceful players dont know D&D very well, so they grow dependent on asking questions. Heres what I did. Naturally, your resourceful players will naturally fall into a leadership role, because following uncreative players will lead to a boring campaign for all. So... give your less ingenious players bonus xp any time they do anything more resourceful than whackin it with thier sword. I managed this by doing things in a more urban campaign, instead of dungeons, because your options for story and intriuge are higher in a city setting imo. Now, back to yoru question if your doing the right thing. Think of every fantasy story youve ever read or heard. Someone ALWAYS almost dies, or does die. Thus the realism. If Conan the Barbarian just steamrolled his enemys every time, you wouldnt have a movie. Keep throwing tough stuff at them. As my friend put it, the hardest thing to learn, yet the funnest, is you cant always win the fight. Sometimes, you arnt meant to. Its figureing out when to run or when to stun thats the best part.
TobaWareho 04-30-07, 11:44 PM	BTW, challenging my players has really worked for me now. Monster CR's are at about +3-4 per encounter, and we usually only have about 3 players. Keep challenging em, theyll catch on lol. I now make parties of NPC's designed to kill the party, and have come to depend on them being able to outsmart me.
Charlym_Zuardan 04-30-07, 11:58 PM	seems to me that if you are ticking off off your players, (and you obviously know you are doing it and HOW you are doing it) then the best advice would be to try something different. as a DM you need to make a game that your players are going to enjoy just as much as you do. "... and the pally died. I raped him... yeah, I cheated as a DM... no doubt on this one" "I constantly throw them against encounters that they may or most likely won't survive..." "After almost losing entire dex and str to poisons the rogue finally gets them to where they need to be " These comments jump out at me and make it seem like you are trying to kill off your players all the time, and thats just not fun for them. the game shouldnt be overly easy, but it shouldnt be overly hard either. tone it down a little, remember that the average encounter is supposed to use up around 20% of thier resources. If you think that is too easy and they shouldnt be able to roll through 4 or 5 encounters without stopping then up it to 35 or 40% of thier resources per encounter.
Necrosis 05-01-07, 12:00 AM	I have simlar issues and use large CR's, hte PC's can laways run away! BUT I also use luck points-like action points in ebberon but more rare, and much more powerful-they allow maximisation of any single dice(except HD) or a dice to be re-rolled. They are awarded as plot rewards.
vactus 05-01-07, 12:12 AM	seems to me that if you are ticking off off your players, (and you obviously know you are doing it and HOW you are doing it) then the best advice would be to try something different. as a DM you need to make a game that your players are going to enjoy just as much as you do. "... and the pally died. I raped him... yeah, I cheated as a DM... no doubt on this one" "I constantly throw them against encounters that they may or most likely won't survive..." "After almost losing entire dex and str to poisons the rogue finally gets them to where they need to be " These comments jump out at me and make it seem like you are trying to kill off your players all the time, and thats just not fun for them. the game shouldnt be overly easy, but it shouldnt be overly hard either. tone it down a little, remember that the average encounter is supposed to use up around 20% of thier resources. If you think that is too easy and they shouldnt be able to roll through 4 or 5 encounters without stopping then up it to 35 or 40% of thier resources per encounter. I guess the biggest problem would finding a good medium with the players since it is a diverse group as far as experience goes. I should note though that the rogue normally rolls high reflex saves... he was just having a bad night that night. But yeah... tone down some, gotcha. I'm really not "trying" to kill them so much as challenge them. Suppose I'm trying too hard though lol.
Charlym_Zuardan 05-01-07, 12:28 AM	"I'm really not "trying" to kill them so much as challenge them." fair enough, hard to say without knowing your group though, but have you asked them what kind of game they like playing? or ask them what kind of encounters they find challenging, be it puzzles, traps, tough combat opponents, roleplaying, or a mix of everything. see what kind of challenges they enjoy and take it from there. also if you have most of your campaign planned out already get copies of thier character sheets, then the day before your next game session, take a look at some of the harder encounters that they will be facing that session and run a test fight, see how well the characters do and if need be you can adjust the difficulty up or down.
DFoster 05-01-07, 09:07 AM	Okay from your post I'm getting that you have a group of 7 PCs in total all level 8, and in your last encounter you put them up against 2 CR 12 Golems. This is an extremely hard fight just looking at the fact the encounter level is 14 and the average party level is 9.6. Add in the additional fact that a lot of higher CR creatures tend to have immunities and resistances that are hard to bypass unless you are within 2 levels of their CR, this fight is pretty much guaranteed to result in a TPK (total party kill) unless your PCs are extremely optimised, happens to have gear specifically designed to counter certain of the Golems immunities and resistances (like for example Adamantine Weapons to bypass the DR), or happen to have significantly more gear then is appropriate for their level. I'd need to see the specific Golems stats as well as the PCs to give a final (and more accurate) predicated result. If you want to send encounters 4 levels above the PCs you might consider having the individual creatures be not quite so strong but having more numerous foes. i.e. perhaps a Boss of CR 11, and a bunch of say 6 CR 8 minions still be a very tough fight but the slightly lower CRs will make it less likely that they are totally out of the PCs league when it comes to special abilities and resistances and immunities.
mightymouse1107 05-01-07, 09:50 AM	Next person who mentions CR or the recommended wealth table gets bonked on the head with a DMG. Look, here's the thing. The DMG is the single most useless book in the game, with the exception of one or two splat books. When I'm talking to new players about what to buy when they start, I say "Absolutely DO NOT buy the DMG. The recommended wealth/encouter tables will become a crutch for you, so you won't learn to feel out your players/the game/your world flavor as well." The golems were a perfectly legitimate encounter. I've had a party in similar situations take down much tougher challenges, while being defeated by weaker ones. There's a lot that goes into encounter difficulty, much more than just crunching the numbers. When putting it out there, ask yourself: (A) is the encounter appropriate for what the PC's are getting themselves into in the world at large? (if 2nd level PC's decide to try to assassinate the emperor of the world's largest empire, don't say "well, the CR shouldn't be too high because they can't handle it." Instead say "they should know better, and would if they were actually trying not to get their characters killed." Then give them the chance to see what would be waiting for them. If they persist anyway, laugh as the 12th level bodyguards TPK them in one round.) (B) does it feel like something they can survive? (earlier example of party stupidity notwithstanding) Not roll over, not anything else, but does it feel like you are using your DM powers to unfairly deprive them of the ability to keep their own characters alive? If yes, you should tone it down. If no, then feel free to have at them. But be flexible. If you miscalculated and they get away but are all nearly dead, maybe that second encounter you had planned can wait. There's so much math in DND its easy to want to reduce it to numbers. (CR, recommended wealth, percentage of resources taken up, etc.) Those tables may be helpful guidelines for some, but in my (since 1e, through 2e, and joyfully embraced 3e) considerable experience, the more encounters you put together saying "this looks neat" the faster you'll get a feel for what works and what doesn't in a given situation with a given party, and the more you'll be able to precisely control how challenging your game is. My players tell me that the two most fun encounters they have are fighting hard against something that nearly kills them, and they barely win/get away... And fighting something similar four levels later and blowing it away. It gives you perspective on how far your character has come.
Bob Loblaw 05-01-07, 10:15 AM	If you really want to know if you are doing something wrong, ask you players. They will let you know how your DMing is going. As for the DMG being the most worthless book, I have to disagree. I suggest reading it often. Get to know Chapters 1, 2, and 3 very well. The guidelines put forth are supported with data on how the game is desgined. Once you understand how things like Wealth and Encounter Levels work, you can make better adjustments to your game as you adjust the powerlevel of the characters. Everything mightymouse mentions is actually covered in those first 3 chapters. I guess it's about as useful as his advice ;) I really want to reiterate what I first mentioned. If your players are having fun, then you aren't doing anything "wrong." The goal is to enjoy the game and the time with your friends. If you've accomplished that, then you're doing fine.
RobbyPants 05-01-07, 10:31 AM	... however two CR 12 golems come around the corner and jack their world up... sort of. The bard goes down, the hunter can't get passed the DR and the rogue is just standing there trying to do dmg... Long story short they make it buy only cause the monk decided killing the golems was a bad idea and just went for the kidnapped girl upstairs and they took off out the back. Go go speed 20 golems lol. I'm not sure from your post if this was intentional or not, but it worked out great. It can be a nice learning experience for the players to have their PCs thrown up against a nearly-invicible foe, that they can easily escape from. Once the PCs (and players) learn the value of running (at the right times), they will go a long way toward being more resourseful. It can be tricky for some players to think outside the box. A great way to motivate them (without extreme railroading) is to offer two paths: one straight-forward but difficult, and one hard-to-find but easy. Once the players get in the hang of looking for ways around the tough obsticle, they begin to work smarter not harder. Of course, a potential problem is that they might assume that there will always be some sneaky way around something. Hopefully, they'll be realistic about it, and throw in the towel if their beaten.
daggeroflath 05-01-07, 10:49 AM	The CR and other formulae based measurements are the best feature of 3.5. Yes, I can calculate the difficulty of an encounter myself but I really don't want to waste my time with such things. At the very least it's nice to have a starting point for figuring such things out. After a few months playing exalted, where they don't have any CR tables or wealth by XP equivalents, I'm really really enjoying the ease of D&D.
Lazigothi 05-01-07, 03:44 PM	I would also agree that the 3.5 DMG is a resourceful book for me. I would always recommend anyone to research something without automatically dismissing it. One person's garbage is another person's treasure trove. I remember the old 2ed books, and the 3.5 core books seemed very synchronized with checks and balances of importance to play the game by comparison. I'd say the old 2ed DMG was worthless, but I'd assume others might find usefulness with it. The CR's have helped me considerably to gauge the appropriate encounter for characters. The treasure tables have likewise helped me figure out a good estimate for awards. The 3.5 DMG also mentions that everything is meant as a guide and not a binding crutch. The prime directive calls for fun, and the game is going well as long as everyone is enjoying it. I agree with the above remark that if you and the players are having fun, then there is nothing wrong. My approach to encounters is to communicate with players to determine what they want and then to give it to them. If they want brutal, I can deliver. If they want politics or puzzles, I can do the same. However, only if they want their characters to die for the story, do I kill off characters. If I know that the party doesn't have any effectiveness against a type of creature, I won't put that creature in. If the party wants to face the powerful creature with resistances and such, and desperately wants to fight it, I'll make sure the party first encounters rumors and stories about how powerful the BBEG is, that weapons break against it's skin, or that flame just makes the BBEG laugh.
daggeroflath 05-01-07, 04:54 PM	I'd say the old 2ed DMG was worthless, but I'd assume others might find usefulness with it. I miss the 2e PHB more. That book really had something. The DMG seemed lacklustre back then.
Bob Loblaw 05-02-07, 12:56 AM	1st edtion DMG was probably one of the best resources I've ever owned. For AD&D at the time, it was incredible. There is a lot of the information in there that is still useful in 3.5.
vactus 05-02-07, 08:35 PM	Lots of info in here... Thanks. :) I personally like the DMG, but I played 2nd ed once in a Dark Sun campaign and don't remember anything about 2nd ed other than loving my dwarf. I've talked to my players and some of them realize that just standing and fighting is a bad thing, however they said that sometimes it does feel like I'm out to get them vs trying to try new things. It just took some talking to figure out that the half of the group that is newer at all this was just wanting to play "whack-a-mole". So it seems everything is working better now. Heh, as my first real campaign it seems to be going very well now.
maharai23 05-02-07, 09:55 PM	The real challenge is giving everyone a chance to shine. Some people, who are less resourceful, need to have situations where they are the only one with the necessary skils to get by. Some players will try to jump in the spotlight. Every so often, as the DM, you need to turn that spotlight somewhere else, let other players get a moment. Everyone needs to feel like they're doing something. After all is said and done, some players really just want to swing their sword at something. Let them. But if a player likes roleplaying, make sure there's time for that. Ultimately, the job of the DM is to balance everything. It can be tough. Usually, people DM'ing for the first few times are going to SUCK. I know I did. But, as with everything else, you learn with practice, and soon, you'll have the pc's showing up every session, and spending half their out of session time, talking about your game. Then you know you're doing something right.