Post/Author/DateTime	Post
reaper5081 09-04-07, 11:57 AM	So heres the thing, my players never pick a balanced party for instance, their current party is fighter, warlock, ninja, and rogue. This is BAD because they have no utilitarian spells and no healing unless they use wands but none of them put ranks in UMD. What should I do?
Some_call_me_Tim 09-04-07, 12:03 PM	What should I do?Nothing. Darwin will sort these clowns out! :D The question should be: do you want to do something about it? I assume you pointed out to the party that they have no healing. Either you can punish them for their insolence or you can adjust the world so they don't need as much magical healing. The choice is yours. Or you could go the third route. Chances are they want healing in the party, but no one wants to play the walking bandage. So, you will have to introduce an NPC cleric to help them out, if you don't want to kill them or change the world to suit them.
reaper5081 09-04-07, 12:05 PM	Right now I'm leaning towards letting them learn the hard way.
RobbyPants 09-04-07, 12:06 PM	Typically in a game, I encourage the players to work together to some extent to make sure they have all the bases they want covered. My players are all experienced enough to have a good idea of what they gain or sacrifice from various class choices. That being said, just run your games and let natural selection do the work for you. If it turns out they can get by with healing potions and frequent rests, great! If not, one or two PCs are bound to die, and they'll have to roll up new characters. If the new PCs are a better match for over-all party composition, the problem will probably fix itself. If not, the cycle will continue until they build a better party. Now, I'm not saying you should have to try and kill them off, but rather, that I feel this is a self-correcting problem. You shouldn't have to softball the game just because they have no healing. The other nice thing is that if the group is weak, hopefully the weakest PCs will die off before their players become attached. ;) EDIT: Nothing. Darwin will sort these clowns out! :D Ninja'ed! :D
Gargs454 09-04-07, 12:20 PM	Yeah it really comes down to whether or not you want to do something about it. Odds are, one of the reasons for the lack of balance is that nobody wants to play the class that is perceived as being "boring". So, you are left with a few options a) Do nothing and see what happens, b) Make healing potions and/or salves more commonly available, c) introduce an NPC cleric and show off the more enjoyable aspects of the class. Option a) will likely result in one of two outcomes either somebody decides to bite the bullet and jump on the healer grenade or your players grow dissatisfied with the game because they think its too hard and that you are just out to get them. Option b) will likely result in a relatively happy party, though, their overall equipment level might be down somewhat since they are having to spend so much on potions. Option c) will certainly result in a happy party provided you do not end up falling into the DMPC traps, it may even result in a player wanting to play a healer at a future date when they see what the classes have to offer. Any of the above options is fine really, and in the end, the important thing is that everyone, including yourself, has fun.
reaper5081 09-04-07, 12:27 PM	Typically in a game, I encourage the players to work together to some extent to make sure they have all the bases they want covered. My players are all experienced enough to have a good idea of what they gain or sacrifice from various class choices. Part of what bothers me the most in this situation is that all of the players have been playing long enough to know this is a bad idea.
jacob22 09-04-07, 12:35 PM	I would rp an npc cleric to round off the party. I think that's a better alternative than forcing someone into rping a character they don't want to be.
The_Levitator 09-04-07, 12:39 PM	For me, the question is in game style. Is this an out-of-the-module hack & slash group? Or is it a deep immersion rolplaying group in a homebrew world? Or is it something in between? I think balance is much more important to a Hack & Slash group than a Story-Driven group. I once ran a campaign where the entire party were monks. They all belonged to a monastery that was being threatened by a rival group of monks, who they eventually had to learn to work with to take on a mutual foe. Having 4 monks in a party could well be suicide in a slashfest, but in that particular campaign, it was a crucial part of the metaplot and story concept. If you are creating a deep story that is woven around the characters, balance is unimportant as the goal is usually to present the group with challenges that advance them and make them heroes. If you are playing Hack & Slash, I think party balance is a bigger issue. At the end of the day though, what I think is really important is the players enjoy their characters and the experiences they share through them. I wouldn't "punish" my players ever for their choices in my games, because most of the fun for players are the choices they make. If you are going to punish them for not playing how you think they should play, then they will get the message that their idea of fun is wrong. If they are new players, it might be a good idea to explain how RAW D&D was designed, and give them an opportunity to adjust the party if that's what they want to do. If they are happy with the party they have, then I would just play the game and adjust the game accordingly to insure survivability and fun. Please don't join the dark side and punish players for not doing what you want them to do. Instead, provide them with a world and a set of challenges that would appeal to their group. Don't send this group after an archmage just to show them how unbalanced they are. However, this party would make a great little special forces-style information gathering group. What I do every adventure (and we are the deep immersion, story driven type of group), is look over all of the character sheets after every session and try to select hooks and ideas that allow the players to use their characters skills and strengths. I also find ways to show them their weaknesses while still giving them plenty of opportunity to survive. If I see that someone has gained a new ability, I try to think of ways to include opportunities to use that ability within the context of our story. What's the point in gaining a new feat or skill if you never get a chance to use it? The bottom line for me is that I design stories, hooks and plots around the characters strengths and weaknesses. This is more work than just creating generic encounters that any properly balanced party should survive, but the vast majority of the feedback I've received as a DM over the years has been overwhelmingly positive. I don't think it's because I'm the greatest storyteller in the world (but I think I am a good one). Rather I think its because players know that the way they create and build their characters in my games actually matters. They know that I use the character sheets to create adventure ideas. So they know they will get an opportunity to play their character as they see it in their mind's eye, and not have to hope to just get lucky. Just remember that you are the DM, and balance is just a word. There are a million ways to balance a game, but none of them insure that your players will have fun. The only way to insure that is to give the players what they want in a gaming experience. :D
reaper5081 09-04-07, 12:39 PM	I would rp an npc cleric to round off the party. I think that's a better alternative than forcing someone into rping a character they don't want to be. That is a good point, I mean, after all, the game is about having fun. I think that part of the problem is that everyone reads the Wizards books and wants to be a party like Drizzt and his freinds. They are all some sort of fighter, there is no wizard and no cleric, books like this (even though they are incredibly awesome :) ) give players the impression that fighters/rangers/barbarians can do anything.
jacob22 09-04-07, 01:01 PM	Exactly, it is about having fun. And as DM if the group is gonna always be looking for a cleric you can have fun with that, make it a rotating position in the party. Annoy the group with clerics who are comedy relief, have good clerics leave the group for other adventuring companies, have clerics get killed and the PCs work to avenge them, have clerics of gods of knowledge take up with the group to help decipher runes. This gives a dm a good opportunity to get the pcs to go in directions they wouldn't otherwise go.
reaper5081 09-04-07, 01:05 PM	SOme god replies for such a short amount of time. Thanks for the advice guys (and gals).:D
Someone 09-04-07, 01:19 PM	Well, if they never take damage, they won't need healing :D All this group really needs to do is pick their fights well, avoiding stronger opponents, setting up ambushes, etc.. Alternatively, they could stick to situations that are less likely to involve actual violence, like social encounters, thievery, and so forth.
MatteBlack 09-04-07, 01:19 PM	Nothing. Darwin will sort these clowns out! :D The question should be: do you want to do something about it? I assume you pointed out to the party that they have no healing. Either you can punish them for their insolence or you can adjust the world so they don't need as much magical healing. The choice is yours. Or you could go the third route. Chances are they want healing in the party, but no one wants to play the walking bandage. So, you will have to introduce an NPC cleric to help them out, if you don't want to kill them or change the world to suit them. I'd let them scramble and spend their loot on consumables and hired NPCs. Suggest someone at least spend a feat on leadership or that the first one who dies(not at another party member's hands) play one of the needed roles. Once they begin to seet their loot money begin to dwindle, they'll come around.
Krusk 09-04-07, 01:25 PM	An easy solution would be to throw a larger percentage of cure potions in the loot. When finding a couple of random potions normally they find 1 cure light, 2 bull str and a cat grace. Now they find 3 cure light and a cat grace. Other than that i wouldnt do much and just let them sort it out. Maybe suggest putting ranks in UMD, but after that let them have at it.
aotrscommander 09-04-07, 01:26 PM	I might be tempted to hurl a well-balanced enemy encounter at them. There's often nothing better than pointing out the PC's pitfalls than having the enemy out-fight you (they do even need to win, merely illustrate the PC's weak points and showcase superior tactics).
Ecalsneerg 09-04-07, 02:04 PM	Well, you could sit down and say "One of you will have to abandon the class you wanted to play and be a bandage." Or adapt your campaign to be slightly less lethal, or have more access to magic items, encourage them to put ranks in UMD as a compromise... There are variuos solutions. My party is occassionally without a cleric, so I load my Ranger up on healing scrolls for post-battle or emergency healing.
Shadowhowler 09-04-07, 02:11 PM	I agree with The Levitator. I always run homebrew games, never pre-made or published... so my only concern when players are making characters as far as balance goes is making sure each character has a niche... something they are really good at, a way for their character to shine. So... if I have a party with 4 fighters, and they all approch it somewhat differantly and they are all fine with each others characters, no one feels any toes are being steped on... then GAME ON. Since I control the world... I won't put them in a situation where, if they don't have a Rogue or Wizard or Cleric in the party, they just flat out DIE. On the other hand, if they put THEMSELVES in such a position, well, then, the screwed themselves. Not my bad. :P
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-04-07, 02:21 PM	Let Natural selection fix this. Incidentally, I'll be playing natural selection in a game soon. Which I think is a pretty cool concept.
schpeelah 09-04-07, 02:31 PM	In my opinion there is no such thing as "unbalanced party". Standard ecounters and adventures are designed for standard parties. Your party is non-standard. That's it. For example, look at the catacombs in Planescape: Torment. At that point, the party has no healer. But they can at any point flee from battle and go to a safe place with healing availble. What you have to do is take into account the strengths and weakneses af the party as whole when planning ecounters so that everyone will have fun. And if you really feel the party needs some sort of character, why don't you give trem an NPC, hired or not.
danielinthewolvesden 09-04-07, 03:08 PM	No, no NPCs or DMPC's. Yes, you can have healing as a Reward for a quest, and when you roll up a potion, you can make 50% of them off the top healing potions. But they made their bed.
RobbyPants 09-04-07, 04:25 PM	Part of what bothers me the most in this situation is that all of the players have been playing long enough to know this is a bad idea. Don't worry about it then. Let them. ;) I don't agree with softballing them because they didn't want a healer. It effectively rewards them for not having a healer in the group. And they don't have to play a cleric to be a healer either. There are well over half a dozen base classes that can heal fairly well without resorting to UMD.
Prince_of_Murder_Kinghall 09-04-07, 05:23 PM	I would just keep going because PCs die anyway (at least for me, not that I am even trying to kill them) so sooner or later someone will make a cleric.
Bloodbat 09-04-07, 06:10 PM	I do not think it is bad PC selection; I think it represents what the players want to play. I have played in parties with no cleric and it was fun. We traded firepower (2 wizards) for healing. We had to be more careful and had to play smart; it was a blast (figuratively and literally). Our DM definitely did not go soft on us but neither did he try to make us see the "error" of having a party without a healer. At most, we healed naturally a bit faster than the rules might dictate and healing opportunities were a bit more available. Still, it cost us money and occasionally cost us potentially winnable battles to play smart and safe. I would not want a DMPC cleric/healer. That character gets abused and really is nothing more than a first aid kit. When the players realize they have an around the clock healer with no self-determination, they will become abusive and foolish . When the DMPC responds negatively to this treatment the arguments that ensue become out-of-game problems. Instead, have a local villager be a low level cleric. He will charge money and be readily available but also not a pushover. He can demand quests and provide lots of hooks and plots. I would always keep the local cleric a few levels lower than the party so that even the village cleric cannot solve all their problems (keeps players from being careless). If you really want to encourage a player to be a cleric, then drop hints that the plot will include undead, active god involvement, heavy religion quests, and some of the other strengths of clerics. Then make sure you deliver those plot components. I think one of the reasons some players resist being clerics is because DMs fail to modify their adventures to give the cleric a chance to shine. A fighter can beat things up and wizards blow things up but when you know one or more of your plot hooks will have you going into a graveyard or a crypt, then you will want a cleric and someone might even want to play one.
Divokej 09-04-07, 06:36 PM	Well, two of them are naturally sneaky, the warlock CAN be sneaky and the fighter can be an interesting drawback. What I would do is create adventures where they can fight but it's a better idea to sneak around. The only thing you'll have to do is tailor it for the fighter. For instance, if the fighter is a tank then what he'll do is when the party gets found out he'll hold the persuers back until his party is safe (and in ambush positions). Then when he's in a spot of trouble he runs hell for leather (I have no idea where that phrase comes from) and springs the trap on his pursuers. If he's a swashbuckler type then he's hopefully also a little sneaky. A ranged fighter is going to be a big plus whenever the group has to kill an enemy. All your characters are good at ranged and you don't have to worry about the fighter getting in over his head.
StormKnight 09-04-07, 06:43 PM	Either you can punish them for their insolence... Ooh, yes, the utter insolence of daring to assume that there might be more than one cookie-cutter way to play for fun! Now I'm curious, on an adventure with tons of anti-magic zones and really long bunches of encounters between chances to rest, is the balanced party with a near useless wizard and cleric being insolent clowns or not?
ForestFawn 09-04-07, 07:06 PM	Nothing. Darwin will sort these clowns out! :D as much magical healing. The choice is yours. Yeppers. You can only mod everything so much, don't try and smash them because of it. This is kinda a " I get into the dragons mouth and look for my toothpick " thingey. Nothing you can do about it. No DMNPC's. Dont try to punish them for it, just let them go with what they went with and everyone should come out happy. Just dont pick up 30 d6 and glance at the group while slowing spilling forth " I told you to bring a cleric. " I could not have said it any better then Some_call_me_Tim ;)
rkr1970 09-04-07, 07:16 PM	Might I suggest having an NPC favored soul join them? This NPC would have a low Int score and be a source of spell power more than anything. You give him healing and buff spells, then let most decisions be up to your party, who all have a list of his spells handy. In combat, all he does is fire his crossbow at the closest enemy each round unless someone in the party tells him to do something else (cast a particular spell, run away, etc.). Out of combat, he has no opinion on most matters, is terribly unskilled, and quietly follows the party around. If this sounds like a way to get away with a free healer/buffer, just remember that this guy gets full XP and treasure shares, all without ever offering any useful insights, solving any problems, or even helping deal with any other NPCs. In the end, the party will have to decide if they want to keep giving up a chunk of XP or if one of them is willing to take over the healing job themselves.
BW0222 09-04-07, 07:23 PM	reaper5081, So heres the thing, my players never pick a balanced party for instance, their current party is fighter, warlock, ninja, and rogue. This is BAD because they have no utilitarian spells and no healing unless they use wands but none of them put ranks in UMD. So they are making it a bit challenging for themselves. They can: 1. Buy lots of potions. 2. Hire a cleric to come along. 3. Take leadership and some type of healer. 4. Invest in various types of healing magic -- rings of regeneration. 5. Get really good at using stealth, ambush, and/or surprise. i.e. do so much damage folks drop long before they take any serious damage. 6. Run and rest a lot. In most cases, folks aren't forced into three or four combats per day. 7. As they reach higher levels they might start thinking about UMD or multi-classing to get access to healing. etc., etc. What should I do? Not much. If the party is really unbalanced and there are only four players, you might lower their APL by 1 -- i.e. lower your combat ELs by 1. However, unbalanced parties can be challenging and fun. Without any spellcasters, they'll really need to think their way through a lot of situations.
Hejdun 09-04-07, 07:29 PM	Just do nothing. They picked the characters they wanted to play. There's no point babying them with a DMPC cleric that'll be about as natural as a third hand. There's no point going out of your way to "prove" that they need a cleric if they can get by just fine without one. Let them come up with their own way of dealing with the situation. There are generally enough options in DnD that they can't hash something together. Healing belts are very cheap and very effective. If they run up against something they can't deal with, they can all chug a potion of invisibility and sneak away. In our 5th level party, my druid doesn't even bother memorizing healing spells anymore because I never end up using them. He'll have 1 lesser vigor prepped (with a pearl of power that's up to 2 if necessary), but most of the healing is handled by a belt of healing.
LFK 09-04-07, 07:41 PM	First: it's a horrible idea to "punish" your PCs. Flat out and always. Bad idea. I don't care what they did, never get vindictive. Moving on, D+D is a group game. It's a cooperative game, and you're playing with the PCs, not against them. When you become vindictive you're basically the jerk who sits at the spawn point shooting his own team. If they have to spend more cash on healing items/services: so what? If it's a hack and slash then in short order consumables like potions will be a non-issue cost. So, the question: what kind of story are they going in to?
Vanraya 09-04-07, 07:46 PM	I actually think that party will function just fine. Why? If the warlock sinks points into UMD he can use any scroll or wand he finds, thus covering the holes, albeit not perfectly
Divokej 09-04-07, 07:59 PM	She hasn't but I have a feeling she will soon. Or the red will.
reaper5081 09-05-07, 07:50 AM	So many replies! You all have good advice but some of you are, in my opinion, dead wrong. I beleive that it would be wrong to make it easy by throwing in a DMPC or making the world easier but at the same time I don't think it would be a good idea to punish them for their class choice. I think the best way to resolve the problem as of now is to continue running the game the same way I always have and hopefully the problem will sort itself out through natural selection.
CCS 09-05-07, 12:56 PM	So heres the thing, my players never pick a balanced party for instance, their current party is fighter, warlock, ninja, and rogue. This is BAD because they have no utilitarian spells and no healing unless they use wands but none of them put ranks in UMD. What should I do? My automatic response is "nothing". The players chose what types of characters they wanted to play, now deal with it. My more detailed response is; This game you're all about to play, it's the story of these heros. So you SHOULD be taking them into account when you write adventures. Different mixes will adventure differently. This doesn't mean that you should automatically assign NPCs to plug any precieved holes, or try & preasure them into playing something else. But you should be writing adventures where the parety still has some kind of chance of success.
reaper5081 09-05-07, 01:06 PM	A different perspective. Nice.
CCS 09-05-07, 01:10 PM	Part of what bothers me the most in this situation is that all of the players have been playing long enough to know this is a bad idea. So how exactly is choosing to play classes you want a bad idea? Is it any worse an idea than remaining stuck on the typical fighter type/cleric/rogue/arcane caster style party? That you've grown board of playing? How many base classes are out there right now in 3.5? Alot. Hundereds if I'm not mistaken. And you'd argue that it's great to have these options - but not all right to actually make use of them? Or are you too stuck on the mechanical side of the game. Where any option that doesn't meet a certain criteria is denounced and discarded? If this is how you think, then you as the DM should sit down, read through EVERYTHING, and make a list of all that you won't be allowing in a game. Likewise, if you insist on a certain pattern of party build, you should make that known going into the game. That way you avoid coming here and voicing concerns that the players haven't CHOSEN to play x. If you're going to remove choice from the game, then do it. If you're not, learn how to DM for non-standard party mixes.
Nephlite 09-05-07, 01:12 PM	So heres the thing, my players never pick a balanced party for instance, their current party is fighter, warlock, ninja, and rogue. This is BAD because they have no utilitarian spells and no healing unless they use wands but none of them put ranks in UMD. What should I do? Have them buy the Magic Item Comprehdruim: Healing Belt costs 750 , but can heal damage like a Cure Serious potion/day. So this means each can heal decently, 1/day Wait: why didn't Warlock put ranks in UMD, he gets to take 10 on it later... it is a good idea.
danielinthewolvesden 09-05-07, 01:17 PM	Have them buy the Magic Item Comprehdruim: Healing Belt costs 750 , but can heal damage like a Cure Serious potion/day. So this means each can heal decently, 1/day Wait: why didn't Warlock put ranks in UMD, he gets to take 10 on it later... it is a good idea. By one reading of that item, you have to be able to "channel positive energy", i.e. have Turning. But yes, you are right about UMD; however, that does not help a new 1st level party much.
heffroncm 09-05-07, 01:30 PM	Honestly, this group has no reason to NEED a cleric. They were dumb about not taking any healing ability at all, though. Most healing in the game ends up out-of-combat, in which case a Rogue with a Wand of Lesser Vigor is just as useful as a Cleric with the same Wand. In general, I have found little need to alter the basic challenges to cater to a party. It is easy to cover all bases with a minimum of intelligent thinking. If the party decides to go out without these bases covered, they are going to be vulnerable.
heffroncm 09-05-07, 01:33 PM	If you're going to remove choice from the game, then do it. If you're not, learn how to DM for non-standard party mixes. Or they should learn to PLAY a non-standard party mix. Blasting: Warlock Melee DPS: Ninja + Rogue Scout: Ninja + Rogue Trapfinder: Rogue Tank: Fighter + Ninja (you'd be surprised how high your AC can get) Healing: Rogue + Warlock Battlefield Control: Warlock + Fighter There is no reason this party can't do very well. If the player's CHOOSE not to use their class abilities, that is hardly the DM's fault.
Nephlite 09-05-07, 01:43 PM	By one reading of that item, you have to be able to "channel positive energy", i.e. have Turning. But yes, you are right about UMD; however, that does not help a new 1st level party much. No, it doesn't. Second paragraph, second sentences: "Spending 1 or more charges, allows you to channel positive energy and heal with as touch." So, you gain the ability to channel positive energy. Plus this channel heals with a touch. And yes, you can touch yourself. Your interpretation is: "Spending 1 or more charges, allows you to heal with as touch if you can channel positive energy." But that isn't how it is written.
Vaelan 09-05-07, 04:33 PM	Part of what bothers me the most in this situation is that all of the players have been playing long enough to know this is a bad idea. Or, perhaps, they have been playing long enough to know that such a decision will create a change in the way the game is played. A change that they are okay with or even desire. Just let them work it out.
reaper5081 09-05-07, 05:25 PM	thank you heffroncm