Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phantom_Lord 06-04-04, 01:00 AM	Hello folks, Okay I have this issue see: How do you stop players from reading up from modules? This bug's been bugging me for quite some time now. Everytime I prepare a module some of my players get itchy di fingers and they start to go through the modules. Some even visit the message boards that I visit and they read up on all the cool stuff that I've been researching on. Some have the audacity to even reply to my queries (not that they help). You know at times like these, a good ol' fashioned DM like me, just wants to hang up that di bag and hand in his handbooks and say, aluve. I swear when will certain people just GROW up?? Anybody wanna chime in their two cents?
At 06-04-04, 01:20 AM	Don't use pre-made modules, or if you do, don't tell your player's that you're using one. If they do discover you are using one and the title, go through it and make a lot of changes, use variant creatures (change stats, special attacks, et cetera), prepare battle tactics that will suprise the characters... You see, they're doing some of the work for you, as they'll be expecting what was written and watch their faces as they realize they've been had. As for players reading your posts... Create a new user name, or two, and try and keep your posting discreet. I told my players my old name, which some of them definetly follow on these boards, reading everything it says (I make sure not to post anything campaign related), while I post the important stuff on one of my secret names. Good luck, and don't let 'em get you down... Show them you can be creative, and when they cast their energy resistances and prepare for that blue dragon they read about... Throw them a fang dragon.
Phantom_Lord 06-04-04, 01:27 AM	Jeez, thanks At. :) I guess you've had this happen a lot to you too?
At 06-04-04, 01:33 AM	The boards problem more than the adventure problem. I typically don't run premade adventures.
Phantom_Lord 06-04-04, 01:42 AM	At, I think its a bit more tricky when it comes to the Boards problem. Take this matter for instance, I was due to run a game about Sammaster, the leader of the cult of the dragon from the Forgotten Realms, and was inquiring to the details of a certain battle, when lo and behold this player comes outta nowhere on the very same board and offers me some info. Useless info, but info nontheless. The player in question is also a DM, so I guess the need to know is quite a strong need? Once a DM always a DM...
Lucid dark Child 06-04-04, 02:05 AM	Easy fix it, sounds like you already know the culperates. Try massive penalties. Like not inviting them back or froming a new group. Failing that make every single campaign you use yourself. As for the boards change your name and don't tell them. still post useless stuff under your old name so they think it is still active and will fallow it.
Phantom_Lord 06-04-04, 02:24 AM	Hmm. Some pretty evil folks online I see. :smirk: But yeah, I kinda likethe mass xp penalty. That would work better for me. :D Any of you folks got any XP penalty system for non-compliance of Gaming Ethics? :cool:
Greldinard 06-04-04, 02:32 AM	What I don't understand about these players is that they don't see that they are spoiling the fun for themselves.
Phantom_Lord 06-04-04, 02:47 AM	I agree with you totally Greldinard, but you have to try and understand the pschye of these ... individuals (if they can be called as such). They have no sense of gaming ethics, whatsoever.
fish_heads 06-04-04, 02:56 AM	I never have this problem with modules, but I have a player who insists on reading every DND book that he can (illegally) download. He doesn't DM, so I know he doesn't need to read half the stuff, and continually metagames. I've actually kicked him out of several sessions for saying things like "I'll use spell X because I know it has a low will save/no fire resistance/damage reduction" or the even worse "oh this is a _____, it's only a CR 2 so I won't use my good spells." I don't have a problem with players reading books, even if it's a DM only book. I do have a problem with people who can't seperate their knowledge from their character's knowledge. If you can't do that, I'll kick you out before you can say "where're the Cheetos?"
Phantom_Lord 06-04-04, 03:02 AM	Originally posted by fish_heads I don't have a problem with players reading books, even if it's a DM only book. I do have a problem with people who can't seperate their knowledge from their character's knowledge. If you can't do that, I'll kick you out before you can say "where're the Cheetos?" Thats exactly my point. In certain cases the cluprit has the almost childlike habits of correcting the DM during the game. "I thot this was supposed to be_______?" or like "Oh this is your own addition then?" or even "But the module says otherwise!" Some culprits even have a stupid theory to uphold their constant game spoilings. They say that it helps to maintain the quality of the games, helps to correct all the errors the DM makes. I know I make mistakes, I'm human. PS-I'm trying to make this sound as less as a rant as possible. Something tells me that I'm not successful. ::sighs, shaking his head::
D'kie 06-04-04, 03:12 AM	I have good players, but tried a new board name. Since then I haven't been able to return to the first. Any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong? If you prefer to keep the thread with a more narrow focus, please PM me, but the information might be kind of useful here as well. Thanks. Barns & Barns (I don't remember the spelling)
Greldinard 06-04-04, 08:14 AM	Originally posted by Phantom_Lord Thats exactly my point. In certain cases the cluprit has the almost childlike habits of correcting the DM during the game. "I thot this was supposed to be_______?" or like "Oh this is your own addition then?" or even "But the module says otherwise!" Some culprits even have a stupid theory to uphold their constant game spoilings. They say that it helps to maintain the quality of the games, helps to correct all the errors the DM makes. Point blank shot....... through the head....... the player, not the character.......
Rasmus 06-04-04, 08:50 AM	How about photocopying the module you are running, thus the players cant tell which adventure you are running from the cover of the book. I know its not free, but it might be a solution, if capping the players in the head is not an option? ;)
Henchcritter 06-04-04, 10:48 AM	I once promised myself role-playing would be a hobby of mine, not an angst-ridden stress-causing task. Otherwise it would be called work, and I would get paid for it. Guys, does anyone play here Monopoly with someone who steals money from the bank? Does anyone here play Cluedo with people who look in the little bag when you visit the toilet? I think not. If you find out they're cheating you will quit playing. Same here, using outside info or worse yet, reading GM-only stuff is cheating. My advice is very simple: tell them to stop it or leave the group. As a gamemaster I only want to play a friendly game with friends. Since I put time and efford in it, I belief it is very reasonable to demand that my friends apreciate that. They don't have to worship me on their bare knees (That will come after my plans for world domination ;) ) but a positive attitude isn't too much to ask. If I put effort in something in something, and my 'friends' thank me by cheating, I feel angry, betrayed used, and a doubt in my friendship with my so-called friends. I think that is a healthy response, if your not feeling that, a shrink might be a good idea. And no, I'm a GM, not a teacher. I don't patrol to catch cheaters and punish them be taking away XP. I'm grateful I left school so I'm no longer in such a childish environment. No snotty ungrateful player is going to take me back. [edit: wrong words and spelling]
jasper 06-04-04, 11:35 AM	I have used different covers. Sunless hidden behind Keep of the borderlands. I have moved monsters. orcs are now in room 4 and kobolds now in room 2. I have changed monster instead 4 orcs in room 2 now 1 troll. I have changed magic. +1 dagger instead of +3 flame tongue I added traps. Player Bucky the Wonder paladin goes to the west wall. Pulls the third brick from the bottom of the fireplace. What do I find. DM. YOu scream in pain as the six crossbows are fired from the brick. I have quit playing with the cheaters.
striderII 06-04-04, 11:41 AM	You have players looking at the modules you're running? And they're using that knowledge to modify their characters' actions? They are metagaming - a more or less polite word for cheating. In professional sports, do they allow cheaters to continue playing the game? Hell, do they do that in amateur sports? No, and neither should you. Here's what you do. First, go ahead and use whichever module you want. Let the players know - they'll most certainly go and pore over every word, knowing exactly how to solve every puzzle and defeat every monster. If you want to be nice, change it up, or decide "at the last minute" to use a different module, or a self-made adventure. Why is that nice? It's nice compared to the next option. To be mean, go ahead and run that module that they've already gone through. Change *nothing*. Let them waltz through it with no problem. Here's where the mean part comes in. They earn ZERO Experience for the entire module. I don't care if they just saved a kingdom - they knew everything beforehand, so how could the have possibly learned anything from it? Remember, experience represents the character learning about the campaign world, and what to do in situations, etc. It is, after all, experience. Your players will be upset. Your players will call you a bad DM. Your players may threaten to leave. Let them. They are the ones who decided to cheat, so it's on their heads. They don't like it, they shouldn't cheat. Simple as that. strider
Exile 06-04-04, 12:03 PM	Either you do one of the above things, like annoying them, shooting them... Or you TALK to them. You are all trying to have fun, neh? Just ask them not to. If they do, I agree with those who say you should just change the adventure. After all, YOU are creating a world. Point out that YOU are the DM, not them. If nothing else works, have a cow or a chest fall directly next to a metagaming player. Or some other heavy weight. Funny little ability of the DM-Class. Exile.
Phantom_Lord 06-04-04, 12:06 PM	The response from you guys is just amazing. I'm speechless. Keep it comin' tho...
Deitus 06-04-04, 12:11 PM	Hey there, I have two DM's as layers in my group, and at times have expeienced the metagaming problem. Comments like " I knew that wouldn't work" after a Mage cast a spell the creature was immune to, even tho the mage's player has played the game for years, knew himself it wouldn't work, but acted like a person who saw that creature for the first time. I as Dm will say, "Shut Up". That's it. The yknow that when I get short with people, it's because someone has crossed the line with me. Often the other players will tell the offender to clam up, just to keep the feel of the game going. My problems only really ever occur with Monster usage and with rules lawyering. I only really use homemade adv.s so i don't get players reading moduels. One of the Other DM's occasionally run Mods, no body will look at it, and if a player has already experienced the mod, they will usually opt out or shut up. All in all I'm making out pretty good with my players, just the occasional slip up. Deitus
trapspringer 06-04-04, 12:23 PM	Do not use pre-maid adventures. They are great for begginers, and make very useful examples on how to make a good campaign, but the common ones are so well known as to be impracticle. Really, you have to make your own. Oyu can't expect a player to vacate the message boards, and there is no such thing as a 'DM only' book.
Nozanthe 06-04-04, 01:21 PM	Something that was fun for me... Let them see a module you are using and take all the NPCs/items/monsters from this module and throw them into the plot of a completely different module. Modify as needed. Confuses the players and you still do not have to build a complete adventure on your own.
Sucineri 06-04-04, 01:49 PM	there is no such thing as a 'DM only' book. DMG is mostly about how a DM should do this or that and how much experience or treasure to give and that stuff..so that is okay if the players read it. PHB is obviously the player's handbook so everyone should be able to look in that. MM is the book players should not be touching. It ruins encounters when the player can see exactly what monster G is immune to and what monster Q's will save is and all that stuff. Only thing a player needs to look at (if they even do NEED to look at it) is to check out a picture..and only if the DM is holding the book open to them and pointing at the picture from atleast 5 feet away. Because unless they have that monster as a favored enemy (ala ranger) then they only know what the thing looks like.
Lady Ishtar 06-04-04, 01:59 PM	remember that the xp they get is based on the difficulty. the less difficult the encounter for them, less xp. another option i use, since my players pretty much know all the monsters, is give monsters class levels. they are seeing displacer beasts, but they dont know the displacer beasts are also rangers :D it always keeps the players on their toes
VaMinion 06-04-04, 03:20 PM	I've got two solutions to module-readers and stat memorizers. 1) Say "Yeah, I'm thinkin I'm going to run <insert published module name here>."...and at the next session, use the hook of that module as the setup for something completely unique. 2) If the player comments on something in the game that their character should not know, change that ability/weakness.
fish_heads 06-04-04, 03:25 PM	Originally posted by trapspringer and there is no such thing as a 'DM only' book. On Page 4 of the BoVD: HIDE THIS BOOK! Book of Vile Darkness is for DMs only. Just as you would keep the contents of a published adventure to yourself, restrict your players' access to this book as well. Don't let them know what's in store for their characters. AS a DM, I Usually make particularly clear what books I'll be using and what books they're allowed to look at. I know there's no sure-fire way to deny them from looking at a book they have access to, but that doesn't mean I can't penalize them for out of session "studying." Even if they have a prestige class or spell or ability from the BoVD, or the BoED, or a template from the monster manual, I tell them to copy it out. I even offer to photocopy it out fro them. It's not the DMs job to have to guard the books' contents, but it is often in their best interest if they want to keep the game fun for everyone.
Arcuna 06-04-04, 03:42 PM	Shoot your players. In the face. With a hammer. Personally I like to confuse my players by reading almost every free mod there is, then combining it into one hellishly annyoing campaign. Only a few of my players even know what mods are, for that matter. This is my approach for metagaming in general: Bob the Player: Well his will save is so high I shouldn't be casting spells, So I'm gonna just cast defensive magic instead. DM: Why? You always go all out with fireballs, don't you? Bob: Well yeah, but as I just said, he has high will saves doesn't he? DM: How do you know? Bob: It says right here in the MM. DM: How does your wizard know? If that doesn't stop them, then I just dock xp for not actually learning anything. I cannot stand metagamers, and I never give second chances when it coems to metagaming. My players are my friends, but D&D is something that takes time and effort, effort that I do not want wasted.
striderII 06-05-04, 12:40 AM	Either you do one of the above things, like annoying them, shooting them... Or you TALK to them. You are all trying to have fun, neh? Just ask them not to. Except that they are CHEATING. Mind you, they're cheating in a game where the only way to "win" is by acheiving group fun. In my book, they gave up their right to being talked to like mature adults as soon as they stopped acting like them. strider
Phantom_Lord 06-05-04, 04:17 AM	Originally posted by Henchcritter I once promised myself role-playing would be a hobby of mine, not an angst-ridden stress-causing task. Otherwise it would be called work, and I would get paid for it. Guys, does anyone play here Monopoly with someone who steals money from the bank? Does anyone here play Cluedo with people who look in the little bag when you visit the toilet? I think not. If you find out they're cheating you will quit playing. Same here, using outside info or worse yet, reading GM-only stuff is cheating. My advice is very simple: tell them to stop it or leave the group. As a gamemaster I only want to play a friendly game with friends. Since I put time and efford in it, I belief it is very reasonable to demand that my friends apreciate that. They don't have to worship me on their bare knees (That will come after my plans for world domination ;) ) but a positive attitude isn't too much to ask. If I put effort in something in something, and my 'friends' thank me by cheating, I feel angry, betrayed used, and a doubt in my friendship with my so-called friends. I think that is a healthy response, if your not feeling that, a shrink might be a good idea. And no, I'm a GM, not a teacher. I don't patrol to catch teachers and punish them be taking away XP. I'm great I left school so I'm no longer in such a childish environment. No snotty ungreatful player is going to take me back. :: gets up and applauds :: :bounce: :pile: :bow: :bow: :bow:
danielinthewolvesden 06-05-04, 05:06 AM	Originally posted by Arcuna This is my approach for metagaming in general: Bob the Player: Well his will save is so high I shouldn't be casting spells, So I'm gonna just cast defensive magic instead. DM: Why? You always go all out with fireballs, don't you? Bob: Well yeah, but as I just said, he has high will saves doesn't he? DM: How do you know? Bob: It says right here in the MM. DM: How does your wizard know? If that doesn't stop them, then I just dock xp for not actually learning anything. He knows becuase he made the right Knowledge roll, in all likelyhood. Sucineri- You do know that with the right Ks and a decent roll or + the PC can know that stuff, right? Clerics with a maxed out Ks-Religion should pretty well know everything they need to know about any undead foe they would likely face. And Wizards have lots of Knowledge skills. Note oh Fellow DM's it is right there in the DMG- we are not supposed to ever penalize players eps. It's cheating to do so. So two wrongs don't make a right. I almost never use modules. In a way, I feel that's poor DMing. But I understand not every DM has the time to make stuff up. So- if you use a module- do a few things. Don't tell them they are in that module. Hide the title. Change a few things around. It's not "cheating" if the players read some module not having any idea that youre going to run it. But there are thousands of modules, so there is no way that the players could possible memorize each of them- and then recognize you're running that module from just a few clues.
Sucineri 06-05-04, 12:43 PM	You do know that with the right Ks and a decent roll or + the PC can know that stuff, right? Clerics with a maxed out Ks-Religion should pretty well know everything they need to know about any undead foe they would likely face. And Wizards have lots of Knowledge skills. You know, to me..if the player rolls well enough for a certain check, the only thing I would allow the character to know is the stuff AFTER the stats on the monster..they don't know they have 23 str instead of 14 str..they just know it is stronger than you. They don't know it has a +2 to will save, they just know it has a bendable will. The character should NEVER know anything dealing with the mechanics of the game and shouldn't use that as a player. Okay, they know a troll has a weakness to fire and acid..that doesn't mean they know what all it's saves or abilities modifiers are. MM is off limits to players. If a player rolls good for knowledge I open the book and read it for them..example. PL: Yeah, I got a *rolls* 23 on my knowledge (whatever trolls is) check. DM: Okay then..*opens book* you know they tend to be evil, they fear fire and acid, and also they have this nasty habit of regenerating damage about as fast as you dish it out. PL: What are it's saves? DM: You won't win a drinking contest with it, and it's not exactly catlike when it comes to it's reflexes..and you can probably force it to do whatever you want it to do. PL: So do you mean an 11, 2, 1? DM: Let me repeat..You won't win a drinking contest with it, it's not exactly catlike when it comes to reflexes, and you can make it act like a mime for all you know.
striderII 06-05-04, 01:21 PM	Note oh Fellow DM's it is right there in the DMG- we are not supposed to ever penalize players eps. It's cheating to do so. So two wrongs don't make a right. Two things. One - the players aren't supposed to *cheat* - how do you deal with that? Hit them where it hurts. If all they are looking for is XP and the next level, rather than at the fun of the group as a whole, then that's where you hit them. Two - subtle difference - my plan doesn't *penalize* their XP - that would be taking away existing experience. They simply don't get any, because, if you know all the problems beforehand, did you learn anything? Nope, not at all. I happen to like the carrot and stick approach...but with no carrot, and more stick. :) strider
Exile 06-05-04, 01:37 PM	It's not penalizing. It's just that the encounter has an effective EL of zero. Still. Telling them that it's boring is the easiest aproach. While you're at it... ask how the game is enjoyable when there's nothing to lose. Exile.
trapspringer 06-05-04, 02:38 PM	You miss my point. There is no book which can be restricted from use by a person based on there status. If there is, the people responsible should probobly be shot before they induce the downfall of civilization.
danielinthewolvesden 06-05-04, 03:56 PM	Originally posted by Sucineri . Okay, they know a troll has a weakness to fire and acid..that doesn't mean they know what all it's saves or abilities modifiers are. MM is off limits to players. If a player rolls good for knowledge I open the book and read it for them..example. PL: Yeah, I got a *rolls* 23 on my knowledge (whatever trolls is) check. DM: Okay then..*opens book* you know they tend to be evil, they fear fire and acid, and also they have this nasty habit of regenerating damage about as fast as you dish it out. PL: What are it's saves? DM: You won't win a drinking contest with it, and it's not exactly catlike when it comes to it's reflexes..and you can probably force it to do whatever you want it to do. Sure, that's OK. But they would know if "he had a high will save", tho right? The player in Arcuna's case didn't try & confirm a specific number, just "high will saves"- altho how on earth a high will save would help vs a Fireball, I dunno.... StriderII- you tell them to stop, and when/if they don't- you ask them to leave.
Sucineri 06-05-04, 06:41 PM	Sure, that's OK. But they would know if "he had a high will save", tho right? The player in Arcuna's case didn't try & confirm a specific number, just "high will saves"- altho how on earth a high will save would help vs a Fireball, I dunno.... "Hitpoints" and "Saves" mean absolutely nothing to a character. So you can not tell your players if the monster has a high or low save..because that is not in a character's knowledge check..that is in a player's metagaming check.
fish_heads 06-05-04, 07:26 PM	Originally posted by Sucineri "Hitpoints" and "Saves" mean absolutely nothing to a character. So you can not tell your players if the monster has a high or low save..because that is not in a character's knowledge check..that is in a player's metagaming check. But conversely, one can "translate" these terms into something that a character could understand. Fortitude is a creatures ability to shrug off physical damage, will is a creatures ability to resist mental effects, reflexes are just that, and hit points can be summed up as a creature's overall health. CAlling them will saves and fortitude saves is the easy way out, but it could easily be worded in a way that isn't metagaming.
danielinthewolvesden 06-05-04, 10:27 PM	Yes, calling the abilities "saves" is just terminology, not Metagaming. I occasionally remark, in real life that "yikes, I must have blown my reflex save there" or "Yep, made my will save vs chocolate".:cool: However, I have no problems with DM's wording it like Sucerni did. That's fine too. Just a different way of DM's adding flavour text. There is no real wrong or right way for this. Wrong would be denying the PC any information even tho the PC has a +30 in the relevant Knowledge skill- or conversly the Player being a half-orc with no Know Skills at all making a bunch of tactical decisions based upon what the Player has read.
striderII 06-06-04, 03:33 PM	StriderII- you tell them to stop, and when/if they don't- you ask them to leave. I reiterate - they gave up the right to be treated like adults as soon as they stopped acting like them. Cheating is poor sport even in games where there is a defined winner and loser. Cheating in a game without such defined qualities is just a bunch of crap. It should not be tolerated by any means. strider
lantzer 06-06-04, 03:51 PM	I have good players. They are all reasonably mature, and gaming with them is fun. I just wanted to brag. Nyah Nyah!:D
Carkni 06-06-04, 06:13 PM	I've never had the problem, so.... Go Homebrew? Or switch to Basic Edition. Basic Edition was designed knowing that the players will cheat, so it prefaces everything with "Whatever is in this book is true." Then, if you read another book, it will totally contradict what the other one is saying. The only way to solve it is to read a lot of books...
Dragon Rider 06-06-04, 07:17 PM	Some people just dont understand the meaning of thegame. Some people just think that the point of this game is to win, and kill things. but what they do not realize is that they should be having fun at the same time. It is so much better not to know what you're getting into. I really hate those kinda people...
fish_heads 06-06-04, 08:42 PM	Originally posted by Dragon Rider but what they do not realize is that they should be having fun at the same time. It is so much better not to know what you're getting into. I guess that some people do derive some kind of fun out of it. the challenge is that you don't allow them to use their foreknowledeg to unbalance the game or make it un-fun for other players. If they're having minimal fun because they cheat, that's fine, but if they're ruining the game for anyone other than themselves, then it's a major problem.
Phantom_Lord 06-07-04, 01:20 AM	A lot of the suggestions that I had been getting previously were to stop using Pre-Made Modules. As much fun it is to make up your own twists and turns in a game, the fun and joy of adapting a module is too much to resist. Thats what being a good DM is all about. Its just that some of these folks don't get detered by a simple, "This section is for DMs only" sign in the modules. I tell you there're some power hungry people(players) out there who lose sleep wondering if their DMs are following the modules and not making any mistakes. Its like you're in 2nd grade and Miss Grundy is watching over your shoulder to make sure that you don't cheat. But modules are good people!
Twisted Puppy 06-07-04, 09:35 AM	Originally posted by fish_heads He doesn't DM, so I know he doesn't need to read half the stuff, and continually metagames. I've actually kicked him out of several sessions for saying things like "I'll use spell X because I know it has a low will save/no fire resistance/damage reduction" or the even worse "oh this is a _____, it's only a CR 2 so I won't use my good spells." A friend of mine solved that problem once and for all in his campaign. Party walked into a chamber containing a single kobold, sitting on a stool, wearing chainmail, with a shield and axe. The kobold looked decidedly unhappy with his lot in life, and upon seeing the party, simply snarled "Get your fat, ugly carcasses out of here!" The party, taking offence, then began combat - hey, it's only a kobold, right? Yeah - a fighter/12 kobold.