Bad RP from a Banite, should be punished? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bad RP from a Banite, should be punished? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeathDealer11
06-10-07, 04:13 PM My friend was DMing an evil adventure,
I was playing a Banite warrior and my friend was playing a Banite cleric.

While we were in town,
The cleric went off on his own and talked to a lawful good paladin blacksmith, who was devoutly a worshiper of torm.

He wasnt able to detect the cleric's alignment, so the cleric convinced the blacksmith that he was also a worshiper of torm and made a whole mushy mushy and deep dialogue about killing evil and hating banites in order to convince the blacksmith to give him a very very powerful sword for free.

By the end of the session I had to interject. Would a Banite priest really do that? Would they lie about their faith? Curse Bane? Just so they could collaborate with a Lawful good tormite paladin? To wield a sword made by a paladin?

I had to step in and I made a little scene about it.

Did I do the right thing? Should the player be punished? Like getting rid of the pwoers of Bane?
KirkBb
06-10-07, 04:20 PM I think any evil god would be happy one of its followers managed to trick and reduce the powers of good with just words. If anything, I'd say the character should be rewarded by his god.
lears_fool
06-10-07, 04:20 PM First of all, as a player you shouldn't be 'making a little scene' about anything in the game. That's no good for anyone.

Secondly, offhand I'd say you were right, but that's just my interpretation. I could also see Bane getting a bit of a twisted pleasure out of things if that sword was potentially going to end up used against that same pally or those known by him.

Either way though, it wasn't a bad idea to bring it up in game. . but that's as far as it should go. The rest should happen after the game's over and the final word is the DM. If you guys have different views over what Bane would approve of the, the DM is right and you're wrong. You ARE just a warrior and he's as close to deific as you get at the gaming table.

As a DM, I'd certainly say that 'punishing' the other player if I myself hadn't interjected clearly is a very bad idea, and even more so if one player's pushing for another to get punished. That comes across as questionably mature. If I felt that perhaps that wasn't appropriate then I'd recommend a minor atonement with a mention that next time it won't be so minor.
DeathDealer11
06-11-07, 03:28 AM I just couldn't let this really bad RP go on..
IceFractal
06-11-07, 03:35 AM Really depends on the god. For instance, a cleric of Vecna doing this would probably gain favor, for deceiving their foes, and weakening the cause of good. Hextor, on the other hand, is more upfront, and also lawful, so actions like this would be counterindicated.

So the question is, is trechery and deceit part of Bane's portfolio? Or is it more about ruling the land in Bane's name? How much in-character the action is depends on that.
Radijs
06-11-07, 04:52 AM It doesn't sound like a bad bit of roleplay to me.
He just tricked the paladin into believing him to be a faithful ally.
Now comes the set up to make him commit an evil act and BAM! No more paladin.
And then the cleric will go in for the juicy juicy kill.
Noon
06-11-07, 06:09 AM I just couldn't let this really bad RP go on..
Oh come on, you don't have a problem with WHAT he did, but WHY he did it. You know he didn't give a crud about roleplay, he was playing to win the sword, and that irks you (not to mention he roleplayed pretty well for someone who was using it as a means to an end and not the end itself)

No, he shouldn't be punished. You shouldn't be playing together - he can't be punished out of what he wants just as much as someone couldn't use in game punishments to stop you wanting your little roleplay fix. Could someone punish you out of that? No? There you go. It's time to stop playing together.
AffableDoomwalker
06-11-07, 06:11 AM Bane is pretty good at deception and stuff. Bane approves. Deal with it, puny warriorling.

Edit: Let your DM deal with it, and see what happens. Srsly. Your cleric friend might be doing some serious devious stuff. Or he might be converting, time will tell.
Radiant117
06-11-07, 06:16 AM No, no and no.

The player was probably thinking on the lines "tricking a paladin in such a way is certainly evil, and Bane's evil too, so it's pretty much okay". Bane, however, might think otherwise. But the player has no chance to know that (every sensible DM will explain the basic tenets of the character's faith and his opinions on alignment beforehand, but it's impossible to cover every situation that might arise). So if the DM thought the action inappropriate, he should have told that outright ("No, you cannot do that, you're not some crazed Cyricist! Magically dominate him and force him to make stuff for you, now that's Bane's way of dealing with paladins.")

Always discuss alignment and faith issues with your DM, doubly so if your character abilities depend on your alignment/good standing with the deity, and quadruply (is there such a word?) so if you are playing an evil character, because not every evil is to the god's liking. Lloth loves seeing the drow houses obliterate each other as a way of natural selection, Bane probably prefers natural selection performed by enemies, and an incompetent but victorious cleric is still better than a dead one. That's chaos vs. law for you, but a deity can also have some specific preferences which have to do with portfolio, backstory (find time to listen to it, you'll earn points) and plans for the future (which you're probably not aware of, but you still should know what's encouraged, what's allowed and what's not).

I once had my alignment shift from CG to NG when I advised to sell a captured slave trader to slavery. The DM ruled that the action was lawful, and that a chaotic good character would either kill him outright or set him free. I was thinking "I will judge him by myself, not delivering him to some legitimate authority, so I'm being chaotic".

In another game, I play a Banite LN wizard who's plain scared of the fate of the world resting (partly) on his shoulders, so he's acting a bit strange for his alignment, and by "a bit strange" I mean yelling at the high priest, insulting the high priestess, chopping an elfmaiden to bits after making the save against her enchantment, fireballing the drow sorceress when *two* Great Wyrms say no fighting!, making said sorceress his personal slave, converting a sun elf cleric of Corellon Larethian to the worship of Bane, and planning to promote his mentor to Emperor and subsequently God of Magic and conspiring against him at the same time. Oh, and he also threatened to kill a Chosen of Bane outright if she continued to insult his mentor (and she said "...arrrgh....sigh... as you wish" - I can be very persuasive sometimes).

So he's mad, yeah, but he's systematic in his madness (therefore lawful), respecting legitimate authority, following their orders to the letter, taking orders from our party's paladin (who's LN and also worships Bane), living an orderly life (studying, training with the sword, not drinking alcohol, not wenching), and, of course, promoting the cause of Bane on a per-round basis. For this, Bane not only pretends not to notice some shortcomings (like when we defeated a fighter who collected ears of his enemies as trophies, and I cut the fighter's ears off and added them as the final article to that grisly collection, calling it "righteous retribution" - although Bane specifically prohibited mutilations, and I was well aware of it), but the clerics actually say he still looks favorably upon me. (Though I wouldn't be doing all that stuff if I was a cleric myself, clerics of Bane are not supposed to be crazed at all.)
northern_bear
06-11-07, 07:22 AM Would a Banite priest really do that? Would they lie about their faith? Curse Bane? Just so they could collaborate with a Lawful good tormite paladin? To wield a sword made by a paladin?

Absolutely they would. Evil characters look out for themselves. If lying helps an evil character, then he should do it.

Think about devils. Does a devil walk up to someone and say "hi there, I'm a devil, my goal in life is to steal you soul. So, what can I do to get you to go on a killing spree?"

Of course not, they say that they are a nice person. They hate Asmodeus. Blah blah blah.

Pretending not to be evil is a pretty basic thing for evil people to do.

I had to step in and I made a little scene about it.

Did I do the right thing?

Absolutely not. You did the wrong thing. You interfered in another player's role playing. You didn't like something that was happening in game, so you made a problem of it out of game.

The DM didn't seem to have a problem with it. Why should you?

Should the player be punished? Like getting rid of the pwoers of Bane?

No. His god is probably proud of him for duping that stupid paladin.
Millennium
06-11-07, 10:04 AM Bane is smart enough to recognize that sometimes his followers need to conceal their faith for a short time. He didn't become the god of tyrrany by brute force alone. Humiliating Torm by bilking his follower out of a powerful sword would certainly earn Bane's favor.

However, I can see how Bane in particular might object to being cursed over the course of this. There aren't many deities with bigger egos than Bane's. I'm not sure if he'd actually punish the cleric, however, in light of what he was able to accomplish. If he did, it would probably be something minor. Of course, there's room for interpretation in what Bane considers "minor," but at the very least I wouldn't make it something that lasts long.
RobbyPants
06-11-07, 01:00 PM WWBD? Perhaps he'd be even more pleased if the cleric killed the paladin with the sword after he made it! :evillaugh
Dragonspirit
06-12-07, 04:19 AM I get what you're saying (evil DOES have built in restrictions as well, especially one enthralled to a lower power not to offend that power), but I have to agree with the majority here in that it would still be serving evil.

As to bringing it up, that's not a problem. Best to do so though at the end of the session and not during it so as not to disrupt the flow and momentum of the game though (I'd say that applies to rules as well as roleplaying as a general idea btw).
Wizard Random
06-12-07, 09:55 AM No he was correct in dealing with the situation and as other posters have talked about if the DM did not have a problem with it neither should you. I belive one of the previous psoters mentioned that you two should not play together and i agree with that if you got upset over something so little and the fact that it is going to have very little in-game impact makes it even worse. If nothing else you should talk ith your DM and see how your veiw if banes preisthood and tenets differ from your own , in this way you can head off problems in the future.
green_yawgmoth
06-12-07, 10:26 AM It wasn't "bad RP", it was "RPing something you didn't like". News flash: evil people lie. A lot. Most of the time, it's to get something they want.

What I want to know is why the pally didn't have his detect evil on so he'd realize "hey, there's evil afoot!" and then 12 seconds of concentration later, ping! holy crap, he's glowing like a bug zapper. Sorry evil cleric, no dice. gtfo before I smite you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
mlund
06-12-07, 02:56 PM Standing in for Bane for a minute here, I'd be pleased to see Torm suffer and displeased to see my servant cursing my name and gaining personal benefit without giving me my cut.

I would demand the spoils of the deed be offered up to my divine majesty as tribute, both out of greed and to reinforce my pawn's subservience.

- Marty Lund
allenchan
06-12-07, 03:12 PM Okay, DeathDealer11, after this thread, the one about the paladin of hoar, and the banite vs zhents thread, its clear you do not understand faiths or alignments in dnd. I'd suggest rereading all the material thoroughly, and lurk on the boards and read the popular alignment threads that always pop up.

Buck up.
Kaldric
06-12-07, 03:55 PM From the authority - The Faiths and Pantheons book for Forgotten Realms

"Bane orders his clerics and followers to achieve positions of power within their society, either through force or trickery".

Sounds like he was roleplaying a Banite pretty dang well.
lears_fool
06-12-07, 03:58 PM Honestly, as much as I agree that this very likely could be appropriate behavior for a cleric of Bane, I DO see this as a lesser problem

The greater problem is getting so worked up over another player's interpretation that it interferes with the game AND results in a stated desire for the other player to get punished.

As a DM, simply misunderstanding a faith or an alignment I could let go. . the latter I would not.
Gottwick
06-12-07, 06:21 PM From the authority - The Faiths and Pantheons book for Forgotten Realms: "Bane orders his clerics and followers to achieve positions of power within their society, either through force or trickery".

Sounds like he was roleplaying a Banite pretty dang well.
Correct. "BANE, Major god. Portfolio: Strife, destruction, deceit, tyranny, fear."

While I can see a little conflict between deceit and the tyrannical aspect (serve no one but Bane), the warrior made a major goof in questioning the clergy of Bane. "Submit to the word of Bane as uttered by his ranking clergy, since true power can only be gained through fear of him." If I was the cleric, I'd make you suffer for that.
green_yawgmoth
06-12-07, 07:01 PM Honestly, as much as I agree that this very likely could be appropriate behavior for a cleric of Bane, I DO see this as a lesser problem

The greater problem is getting so worked up over another player's interpretation that it interferes with the game AND results in a stated desire for the other player to get punished.

As a DM, simply misunderstanding a faith or an alignment I could let go. . the latter I would not.
Exactly. I get the feeling the OP is the kid on the playground who gets pleasure from tattling to the teacher when billy wouldn't let him on the swings.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeathDealer11 06-10-07, 04:13 PM	My friend was DMing an evil adventure, I was playing a Banite warrior and my friend was playing a Banite cleric. While we were in town, The cleric went off on his own and talked to a lawful good paladin blacksmith, who was devoutly a worshiper of torm. He wasnt able to detect the cleric's alignment, so the cleric convinced the blacksmith that he was also a worshiper of torm and made a whole mushy mushy and deep dialogue about killing evil and hating banites in order to convince the blacksmith to give him a very very powerful sword for free. By the end of the session I had to interject. Would a Banite priest really do that? Would they lie about their faith? Curse Bane? Just so they could collaborate with a Lawful good tormite paladin? To wield a sword made by a paladin? I had to step in and I made a little scene about it. Did I do the right thing? Should the player be punished? Like getting rid of the pwoers of Bane?
KirkBb 06-10-07, 04:20 PM	I think any evil god would be happy one of its followers managed to trick and reduce the powers of good with just words. If anything, I'd say the character should be rewarded by his god.
lears_fool 06-10-07, 04:20 PM	First of all, as a player you shouldn't be 'making a little scene' about anything in the game. That's no good for anyone. Secondly, offhand I'd say you were right, but that's just my interpretation. I could also see Bane getting a bit of a twisted pleasure out of things if that sword was potentially going to end up used against that same pally or those known by him. Either way though, it wasn't a bad idea to bring it up in game. . but that's as far as it should go. The rest should happen after the game's over and the final word is the DM. If you guys have different views over what Bane would approve of the, the DM is right and you're wrong. You ARE just a warrior and he's as close to deific as you get at the gaming table. As a DM, I'd certainly say that 'punishing' the other player if I myself hadn't interjected clearly is a very bad idea, and even more so if one player's pushing for another to get punished. That comes across as questionably mature. If I felt that perhaps that wasn't appropriate then I'd recommend a minor atonement with a mention that next time it won't be so minor.
DeathDealer11 06-11-07, 03:28 AM	I just couldn't let this really bad RP go on..
IceFractal 06-11-07, 03:35 AM	Really depends on the god. For instance, a cleric of Vecna doing this would probably gain favor, for deceiving their foes, and weakening the cause of good. Hextor, on the other hand, is more upfront, and also lawful, so actions like this would be counterindicated. So the question is, is trechery and deceit part of Bane's portfolio? Or is it more about ruling the land in Bane's name? How much in-character the action is depends on that.
Radijs 06-11-07, 04:52 AM	It doesn't sound like a bad bit of roleplay to me. He just tricked the paladin into believing him to be a faithful ally. Now comes the set up to make him commit an evil act and BAM! No more paladin. And then the cleric will go in for the juicy juicy kill.
Noon 06-11-07, 06:09 AM	I just couldn't let this really bad RP go on.. Oh come on, you don't have a problem with WHAT he did, but WHY he did it. You know he didn't give a crud about roleplay, he was playing to win the sword, and that irks you (not to mention he roleplayed pretty well for someone who was using it as a means to an end and not the end itself) No, he shouldn't be punished. You shouldn't be playing together - he can't be punished out of what he wants just as much as someone couldn't use in game punishments to stop you wanting your little roleplay fix. Could someone punish you out of that? No? There you go. It's time to stop playing together.
AffableDoomwalker 06-11-07, 06:11 AM	Bane is pretty good at deception and stuff. Bane approves. Deal with it, puny warriorling. Edit: Let your DM deal with it, and see what happens. Srsly. Your cleric friend might be doing some serious devious stuff. Or he might be converting, time will tell.
Radiant117 06-11-07, 06:16 AM	No, no and no. The player was probably thinking on the lines "tricking a paladin in such a way is certainly evil, and Bane's evil too, so it's pretty much okay". Bane, however, might think otherwise. But the player has no chance to know that (every sensible DM will explain the basic tenets of the character's faith and his opinions on alignment beforehand, but it's impossible to cover every situation that might arise). So if the DM thought the action inappropriate, he should have told that outright ("No, you cannot do that, you're not some crazed Cyricist! Magically dominate him and force him to make stuff for you, now that's Bane's way of dealing with paladins.") Always discuss alignment and faith issues with your DM, doubly so if your character abilities depend on your alignment/good standing with the deity, and quadruply (is there such a word?) so if you are playing an evil character, because not every evil is to the god's liking. Lloth loves seeing the drow houses obliterate each other as a way of natural selection, Bane probably prefers natural selection performed by enemies, and an incompetent but victorious cleric is still better than a dead one. That's chaos vs. law for you, but a deity can also have some specific preferences which have to do with portfolio, backstory (find time to listen to it, you'll earn points) and plans for the future (which you're probably not aware of, but you still should know what's encouraged, what's allowed and what's not). I once had my alignment shift from CG to NG when I advised to sell a captured slave trader to slavery. The DM ruled that the action was lawful, and that a chaotic good character would either kill him outright or set him free. I was thinking "I will judge him by myself, not delivering him to some legitimate authority, so I'm being chaotic". In another game, I play a Banite LN wizard who's plain scared of the fate of the world resting (partly) on his shoulders, so he's acting a bit strange for his alignment, and by "a bit strange" I mean yelling at the high priest, insulting the high priestess, chopping an elfmaiden to bits after making the save against her enchantment, fireballing the drow sorceress when two Great Wyrms say no fighting!, making said sorceress his personal slave, converting a sun elf cleric of Corellon Larethian to the worship of Bane, and planning to promote his mentor to Emperor and subsequently God of Magic and conspiring against him at the same time. Oh, and he also threatened to kill a Chosen of Bane outright if she continued to insult his mentor (and she said "...arrrgh....sigh... as you wish" - I can be very persuasive sometimes). So he's mad, yeah, but he's systematic in his madness (therefore lawful), respecting legitimate authority, following their orders to the letter, taking orders from our party's paladin (who's LN and also worships Bane), living an orderly life (studying, training with the sword, not drinking alcohol, not wenching), and, of course, promoting the cause of Bane on a per-round basis. For this, Bane not only pretends not to notice some shortcomings (like when we defeated a fighter who collected ears of his enemies as trophies, and I cut the fighter's ears off and added them as the final article to that grisly collection, calling it "righteous retribution" - although Bane specifically prohibited mutilations, and I was well aware of it), but the clerics actually say he still looks favorably upon me. (Though I wouldn't be doing all that stuff if I was a cleric myself, clerics of Bane are not supposed to be crazed at all.)
northern_bear 06-11-07, 07:22 AM	Would a Banite priest really do that? Would they lie about their faith? Curse Bane? Just so they could collaborate with a Lawful good tormite paladin? To wield a sword made by a paladin? Absolutely they would. Evil characters look out for themselves. If lying helps an evil character, then he should do it. Think about devils. Does a devil walk up to someone and say "hi there, I'm a devil, my goal in life is to steal you soul. So, what can I do to get you to go on a killing spree?" Of course not, they say that they are a nice person. They hate Asmodeus. Blah blah blah. Pretending not to be evil is a pretty basic thing for evil people to do. I had to step in and I made a little scene about it. Did I do the right thing? Absolutely not. You did the wrong thing. You interfered in another player's role playing. You didn't like something that was happening in game, so you made a problem of it out of game. The DM didn't seem to have a problem with it. Why should you? Should the player be punished? Like getting rid of the pwoers of Bane? No. His god is probably proud of him for duping that stupid paladin.
Millennium 06-11-07, 10:04 AM	Bane is smart enough to recognize that sometimes his followers need to conceal their faith for a short time. He didn't become the god of tyrrany by brute force alone. Humiliating Torm by bilking his follower out of a powerful sword would certainly earn Bane's favor. However, I can see how Bane in particular might object to being cursed over the course of this. There aren't many deities with bigger egos than Bane's. I'm not sure if he'd actually punish the cleric, however, in light of what he was able to accomplish. If he did, it would probably be something minor. Of course, there's room for interpretation in what Bane considers "minor," but at the very least I wouldn't make it something that lasts long.
RobbyPants 06-11-07, 01:00 PM	WWBD? Perhaps he'd be even more pleased if the cleric killed the paladin with the sword after he made it! :evillaugh
Dragonspirit 06-12-07, 04:19 AM	I get what you're saying (evil DOES have built in restrictions as well, especially one enthralled to a lower power not to offend that power), but I have to agree with the majority here in that it would still be serving evil. As to bringing it up, that's not a problem. Best to do so though at the end of the session and not during it so as not to disrupt the flow and momentum of the game though (I'd say that applies to rules as well as roleplaying as a general idea btw).
Wizard Random 06-12-07, 09:55 AM	No he was correct in dealing with the situation and as other posters have talked about if the DM did not have a problem with it neither should you. I belive one of the previous psoters mentioned that you two should not play together and i agree with that if you got upset over something so little and the fact that it is going to have very little in-game impact makes it even worse. If nothing else you should talk ith your DM and see how your veiw if banes preisthood and tenets differ from your own , in this way you can head off problems in the future.
green_yawgmoth 06-12-07, 10:26 AM	It wasn't "bad RP", it was "RPing something you didn't like". News flash: evil people lie. A lot. Most of the time, it's to get something they want. What I want to know is why the pally didn't have his detect evil on so he'd realize "hey, there's evil afoot!" and then 12 seconds of concentration later, ping! holy crap, he's glowing like a bug zapper. Sorry evil cleric, no dice. gtfo before I smite you. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
mlund 06-12-07, 02:56 PM	Standing in for Bane for a minute here, I'd be pleased to see Torm suffer and displeased to see my servant cursing my name and gaining personal benefit without giving me my cut. I would demand the spoils of the deed be offered up to my divine majesty as tribute, both out of greed and to reinforce my pawn's subservience. - Marty Lund
allenchan 06-12-07, 03:12 PM	Okay, DeathDealer11, after this thread, the one about the paladin of hoar, and the banite vs zhents thread, its clear you do not understand faiths or alignments in dnd. I'd suggest rereading all the material thoroughly, and lurk on the boards and read the popular alignment threads that always pop up. Buck up.
Kaldric 06-12-07, 03:55 PM	From the authority - The Faiths and Pantheons book for Forgotten Realms "Bane orders his clerics and followers to achieve positions of power within their society, either through force or trickery". Sounds like he was roleplaying a Banite pretty dang well.
lears_fool 06-12-07, 03:58 PM	Honestly, as much as I agree that this very likely could be appropriate behavior for a cleric of Bane, I DO see this as a lesser problem The greater problem is getting so worked up over another player's interpretation that it interferes with the game AND results in a stated desire for the other player to get punished. As a DM, simply misunderstanding a faith or an alignment I could let go. . the latter I would not.
Gottwick 06-12-07, 06:21 PM	From the authority - The Faiths and Pantheons book for Forgotten Realms: "Bane orders his clerics and followers to achieve positions of power within their society, either through force or trickery". Sounds like he was roleplaying a Banite pretty dang well. Correct. "BANE, Major god. Portfolio: Strife, destruction, deceit, tyranny, fear." While I can see a little conflict between deceit and the tyrannical aspect (serve no one but Bane), the warrior made a major goof in questioning the clergy of Bane. "Submit to the word of Bane as uttered by his ranking clergy, since true power can only be gained through fear of him." If I was the cleric, I'd make you suffer for that.
green_yawgmoth 06-12-07, 07:01 PM	Honestly, as much as I agree that this very likely could be appropriate behavior for a cleric of Bane, I DO see this as a lesser problem The greater problem is getting so worked up over another player's interpretation that it interferes with the game AND results in a stated desire for the other player to get punished. As a DM, simply misunderstanding a faith or an alignment I could let go. . the latter I would not. Exactly. I get the feeling the OP is the kid on the playground who gets pleasure from tattling to the teacher when billy wouldn't let him on the swings. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif