Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WCH 07-06-05, 09:57 PM	My party's rogue (now lvl 4) has so far tried 4 break ins and failed each time, always for a different reason. First time he was lvl 2 and tried to break into a weaponsmith's, hoping to steal some mwk shortswords. He went there, scouted out where all the guards in the area were, tried to pick the lock and failed, snuck around a bit looking for other ways in but not finding one and passed all his move silently and hide checks when the guards were near. Then he took out his crowbar and tried to break the lock, at first using one hand to hold some leather over the lock in an effort to muffle the sound while pulling with the other -- when he failed his Str check a couple times, he switched to two hands pulling on it with a foot braced against the door. Made his Str check, lock broke, but I ruled that because he hadn't done anything to prevent this, it fell to the cobblestones making a clatter (should've seen the look on his face when I said this -- he went from rejoicing to "nooo!!!"). Ran like hell, managed to get away. Second attempt was later the same night, when he tried to break into a middle class home. Broke the lock, got in, but had no light source with him and there was no natural light in that part of the building, so he couldn't see anything and had to leave. Third attempt was when he was lvl 3 -- he snuck in the back of a pawnshop, past where the two male owners of the shop were sleeping (front entrance into shop, back entrance into home, he went through the back). Managed to get past them and into the main shop area, wasted a bunch of time uncovering everything (there was burlap put over all the items to prevent dust), took off his studded leather right then and there, trading it for the chainshirt they had in stock, grabbed a few items, recovered everything -- in all, wasted a lot of time. Then, on discovering the front door locked, rather than picking or breaking it, he tried to go back out the way he came. By now, the owners had groggily gotten up to see if they'd heard anything, and he ran into them. Fought them, called them gay, got beaten (one of them had the best item in the store stowed under his bed -- a +1 dwarven waraxe), they gave him an embarassing injury and turned him into the authorities, who took pity on him and let him off with a warning. Fourth attempt was tonight, at lvl 4. Tried to break into the home of an aristocrat -- large mansion with a high hedge running all the way around it, except for the front walk way. Snuck up and tried to pick the lock, but failed several times and then managed to render the lock unusable. Then, after wasting a bit of time pondering whether to try his luck climbing the hedge, he went to the side and tried to cut himself a hole with his short sword. I ruled he could do this, but it'd take him quite a while because the sword isn't really the ideal weapon for that, and because it's a really thick hedge. Anyway, while he was doing that, two guards and a dog returned from the city where they'd been playing cards rather than doing their jobs. The dog caught his scent but the guards shut the dog up, thinking it was nothing and being ****** about losing at cards, until they made their way around and saw the hole the rogue had been cutting, at which point they set the dog loose and jogged after it. The rogue managed to get away, but was forced to kill the dog. So... am I being too hard on the player?? I'm certainly not trying to be unreasonable, just making it such that stuff can go wrong. I generally let my players do whatever they want to, but don't coddle them if they do something stupid like attack a temple or insult the master of the fighter's guild. What I see are three possibilities: 1) The player keeps screwing up, but the tasks if done right would've gone fine. 2) I'm being too hard on him, and he should've succeeded 3) Theiving in general is really hard for a low lvl char, and it's neither the DM's fault nor the player's that he's sucked at it. What do you think?
Ut-Napishtim 07-06-05, 10:06 PM	Naw, that sounds okay to me. He'll probably get better by trial and error just like most folks. What's the rest of the group doing during all this though? He might just benefit from taking a party member or two along for backup if they're stealthy enough.
WCH 07-06-05, 10:08 PM	We do these escapades as minisessions over MSN, not during game meetings. I've mentioned to the group more than once that you can roleplay side stuff with me at any time if you're so inclined, but the rogue's player is the only one to take advantage of it... not that he's actually gained anything out of it, of course.
Burgundy Lotus 07-06-05, 10:09 PM	First - A little unreasonable, how much noise would a falling lock make and how close were the guards? Second - sounds right Third - Got up to see if they heard something??? either they did or they didn't. Fourth - sounds reasonable Just my 2 coppers
WCH 07-06-05, 10:13 PM	Third - Got up to see if they heard something??? either they did or they didn't.You know how it is... "Did you hear something just now?" "No, go back to sleep." "Seriously, I thought I heard something, sounded like metal on metal." "Ugh... it's probably a horse outside..." "Horses don't sound like that... can you please just go check it out?" "Dude, I'm telling you it's nothing" "Yeah, probably... but come on..." "Okay, okay, fine..." By this time a few minutes have passed, and they're still kind of groggy and not really expecting to actually find someone, but are just making sure. Then he's opening the door towards them, and it's game over.
Burgundy Lotus 07-06-05, 10:16 PM	Ahhh! That's more the 'they heard something but couldn't be sure what it was.' but all seems good as long as the rogue has fun, if he fails the next time let him run off with a small trinket or two to make him feel better,
WCH 07-06-05, 10:17 PM	First - A little unreasonable, how much noise would a falling lock make and how close were the guards?One pound of steel falling onto cobble stones (no grass or anything) would be quite loud indeed. If you want to test it, get a one pound steel object and drop it. Guards were maybe 60 feet away, chilling out against a market stall in front of the shop (market is this large circle with permanent shops along the outside, rentable stalls on the inside and a wide road running the circumference. Rogue was trying to enter the back of a shop, a guard was patrolling the road and two more were in the stalls near the front of the building).
Ut-Napishtim 07-06-05, 10:18 PM	You know how it is... "Did you hear something just now?" "No, go back to sleep." "Seriously, I thought I heard something, sounded like metal on metal." "Ugh... it's probably a horse outside..." "Horses don't sound like that... can you please just go check it out?" "Dude, I'm telling you it's nothing" "Yeah, probably... but come on..." "Okay, okay, fine..." Ahhh... so these dudes are more than just roommates, eh? That sounds like a conversation my wife an I would have. 'Cause if I were rooming with a dude I sure wouldn't be wussifying myself by asking him to "please go cheack out that noise" unless I was already pretty much the chick. ;)
WCH 07-06-05, 10:25 PM	Yeah, well, when I wrote that conversation just now I was definitely envisioning a wife asking the husband to check it out... but it was just an example of how they could've been unsure about hearing something and taken a while to get up. But, yes, they're gay. :P
Zandilar 07-06-05, 10:32 PM	Heya, What I see are three possibilities: 1) The player keeps screwing up, but the tasks if done right would've gone fine. 2) I'm being too hard on him, and he should've succeeded 3) Theiving in general is really hard for a low lvl char, and it's neither the DM's fault nor the player's that he's sucked at it. What do you think? You gave us four examples, are these all the things he's tried to do? Has he succeeded at anything? 1) It sounds like he's been making bad rolls and bad decisions. He shouldn't be overly punished for the former, but definitely for the latter. After all, how can he learn from his mistakes if you coddle him when he makes a bad decision? 2) How are you being too hard on him? It sounds like you were very reasonable and gave him all the chances in the world. The only example you gave where I thought you could have given him an extra chance was with the crowbar in the first. As a DM I would have asked the player to make a dex-check to see if he could catch the lock before it could make a noise... And I definitely would have made the guards make listen checks - who knows, they might have had a cold (blocked ears), or been particularly inattentive, or distracted by something else at the time. 3) I think this is partially the problem. At low levels, players have lower level skills and ability bonuses. By the same token, they should be facing challenges consumerate with their level - but that's only in your current adventure. If they go outside your current adventure/plot and decide to do something on the spur of the moment, you need to make the challenge realistic, and if the PC bites off more than they can chew, so be it. I.e.: If the noble is going to have masterwork locks, then they're going to have masterwork locks. Just because a 4th level PC is trying to break in doesn't mean you should make the locks easier to deal with. Not sure how much that helps. :)
WCH 07-06-05, 10:38 PM	Yeah, those are all his attempts; he's 4 and 0. 2) Well, the listen would've been DC 5 or so... and he didn't wait around to find out, just ran the hell away. Only got away because he was wearing light armour and they were wearing medium -- good old D&D and never allowing someone to catch someone else while running unless they're a monk or barbarian, eh? :P
Moonflyer 07-06-05, 10:56 PM	Classic WCH!! At least he's persistant... maybe he is meant to be a bard. :smirk:
celtredleg 07-07-05, 12:32 AM	Sound OK to me. Maybe next time he will actually plan out an attempt. Things usually work better when you do that.
braindead345 07-07-05, 12:56 AM	You must be a fan of Donald Westlake. His theives are always running into problems like that. Is it a moral decission on your part not to allow the rogue success? If it is, then you might be a bit unfair towards the player. Look at it in the grand scope of things. Can the character afford to purchase what is being stolen? Is there a genuine need for the objects being stolen? Is he attempting to steal powerful magic items that will upset the game's balance? Will the saving of a few hundred gps make that much difference in the campaign? Are there ways you can obtain compensation from the character (or can you just deduct the value from the treasure the party finds later on)? In my opinion, cut him some slack on the small stuff and save the thwarting for when he goes after the big ticket items. If the habbit is too obsessive (i.e. picking every pocket in sight or stealing when there is no real need) then start thwarting the small stuff too. Of course, to add insult to injury, add in simmilar items to what he attempted to steal into the monsters' treasures. The moral being "focus on the big goal and the details will work themselves out". In other words, if you want it, focus on the adventure and you will recieve it.
Kalanth 07-07-05, 01:06 AM	Actually, I quite enjoyed them all. They sound more like the bumbling of a green thief than the trappings of a bad DM. I would not worry, WCH, you had set many reasonable settings there. It did seem a bit coincedental that guards would be heading back from playing cards shortly after the rogue got through the hedge, but thats just me. Maybe for added effect there, it would have been more entertaining if the Rogue succeeded and the guards saw the hole, then the next day everyone is talking about who robbed Count Whosewhatsit, and a side plot has begun.
WCH 07-07-05, 02:00 AM	Well, basically having the guards come back from their card game was my solution to a mistake... specifically that I didn't mention any guards when he was scouting it out, and when he was doing stuff I was thinking "Damnit, what was I thinking, of course there are guards... okay, in ten minutes game time they'll come down the road" What it also gave is several opportunities... one being that if he'd been faster he could've been in without the guards having a chance to see him, the second being that he could potentially have talked his way out of it. "I don't particularly feel like killing you guys, and I assume the feeling is more or less mutual. Tell you what -- you don't tell anyone I was here, and I won't tell anyone you were skipping out on your job. Deal?"
Liwmial 07-07-05, 02:14 AM	Sounds like you are being very fair with this guy. Thieving is tough work, and low level thieves go to the gallows more often than not. Tell him to think of it as learning the trade ... always bring a light source, don't waste so much time, invest in a metal eating acid, don't leave gaping holes in hedges that face the road, and so on, etc. Someday he'll masterfully burgle someone, and take them for every available penny, and he'll have his experience, and the fact that you didn't kill him with some super trap, to thank for it.
VirgilCaine 07-07-05, 10:00 AM	Well, basically having the guards come back from their card game was my solution to a mistake... specifically that I didn't mention any guards when he was scouting it out, and when he was doing stuff I was thinking "Damnit, what was I thinking, of course there are guards... okay, in ten minutes game time they'll come down the road" Good, reasonable save. You haven't been doing anything wrong. The guy is low-level, what does he expect?
Ut-Napishtim 07-07-05, 10:18 AM	Yeah, the failures will probably make the payoff all the more sweeter when he finally gets it right. :ayyyy!:
Vaelan 07-07-05, 10:23 AM	Guards were maybe 60 feet away, chilling out against a market stall in front of the shop (market is this large circle with permanent shops along the outside, rentable stalls on the inside and a wide road running the circumference. 2) Well, the listen would've been DC 5 or so... I would have ruled this as a DC 1 myself. -5 for the noise (louder than talking, not as loud as a battle) and +6 for the distance. Between this example and the sleeping shopkeepers, I get the feeling that the PHB section on the Listen skill could be a good read.
Kalanth 07-07-05, 03:01 PM	Well, basically having the guards come back from their card game was my solution to a mistake... specifically that I didn't mention any guards when he was scouting it out, and when he was doing stuff I was thinking "Damnit, what was I thinking, of course there are guards... okay, in ten minutes game time they'll come down the road" What it also gave is several opportunities... one being that if he'd been faster he could've been in without the guards having a chance to see him, the second being that he could potentially have talked his way out of it. "I don't particularly feel like killing you guys, and I assume the feeling is more or less mutual. Tell you what -- you don't tell anyone I was here, and I won't tell anyone you were skipping out on your job. Deal?" Well since you put it this way, I see this as a fully reasonable answer instead. It just seemed to conveinient before. :)
Chobemaster 07-07-05, 03:35 PM	he's caught after commiting burglary and aggravated assault, and they let him go with a WARNING? He'd probably be executed in the "basic" fantasy world.
scott644 07-07-05, 03:45 PM	Seemed perfectly fair to me. You had reasonable risks in each scenario, and he found a way to goof each one - although to be nice you *might* have allowed him a reflex save to catch the lock before it hit the street. D&D is a game built around the concept of teamwork, and he simply needs to think in terms of getting assistance in his efforts (especially if he wants to keep escalating the targets with every attempt).
alecthemad 07-07-05, 03:51 PM	I think it is the thief's problem. He is choosing targets in difficult locations in order to get a big payoff. He is also making rookie burgalar mistakes. His biggest problem is looking for a place and hitting it the same night. He should look for a nice place to hit. Go check it out during the day if possible. Then observe the security at night. Let us say that he had done so for the pawn shop. He could have chosen the item he desired and had a good idea of its location in the store. He could have tried to strike up a conversation regarding all the nice stuff and how they keep it safe (social skills pay off here). Then he buys something cheap so he looks like a legit customer. Then for the next few evenings he scouts out the guards and decides how to distract them just long enough, he also takes the opportunity to check out the lock and other physical security so he can come prepared. If he had taken such steps he would have had a hedge clipper, something to saw the wood away from the lock, a shuttered lantern for hidable light. If you want to help him then one night when he tries to break into a place have an older more experienced thief accost him saying that the PC is hitting a place the older rogue is scouting. Then the NPC can give him some lessons which he should put to good use. Having said that, you should not make it too easy on him. He is a known thief and the guards are not likely to let him go if they see him skulking about.
Siduakal 07-07-05, 03:58 PM	I loved it.. I'd play a rogue if I could do this stuff.. I'd love to do that quick-thinking type of solo adventure. It's just fun.. And ya, he should try to take another party member. What's your party consist of? A ranger would probably be his best choice for a non-rogue helper. (Since they don't have the types of morals most monks do) And a Monk after that.. Have'em play look out/distract the guards when they come.
KoboldSlayer 07-07-05, 04:07 PM	Sounds okay to me. Sounds like "stupid criminal" stories that show up in the paper from time to time, too. I don't think you are being hard on him at all. (Is fate being too hard on the criminal who gets pinched because he wrote the hold-up note on the back of his own electric bill?)
Quarsian 07-07-05, 04:33 PM	You need to remember that merchants won't be ignorant of magic in a D&D world. This hasn't factored in so much for you, it seems, right now, but it likely will as the player grows in strength. So far things have been good. You weren't being too hard on the player so long as all the necessary checks were being made (ie listen for the sleeping merchants, listen for the guards, etc.) and weren't being fudged.
Styer 07-07-05, 04:36 PM	WCH said: Made his Str check, lock broke, but I ruled that because he hadn't done anything to prevent this . . .This bit seems a tiny bit harsh. To the degree this character is a professional thief (and he's a second level Rogue focusing on thievery at this point, so I'd say he is), there may be some call for leeway due the difference between character knowledge and player knowledge. In other words, just because the player didn't think to pad the lock, doesn't mean the character wouldn't have. The player presumably isn't a professional thief, but the character is. Just as the players shouldn't benefit from their out-of-character knowledge of monsters and stuff, the character shouldn't be punished for the gulf between his own experience and the player's. That said, you don't want that to be a total "out" for the player thinking -- you might institute a policy of a secret DM-rolled Wisdom check for these situations. But all that is more-or-less a question of play-style, and I can certainly see either way working. Broke the lock, got in, but had no light source with him and there was no natural light in that part of the building, so he couldn't see anything and had to leave.This I have no problem with. There's an echo the issue of player knowledge vs. character knowledge here, but if I think light sources are a balance issue in D&D because of Lowlight Vision and Dark Vision, so I think there's cause to be tougher on this issue. By now, the owners had groggily gotten up to see if they'd heard anything, and he ran into them.Of the four, this is the one I have the most potential problem with. Do you always allow sleeping characters listen checks? If so, then it was fair for these guys to get a check, and if they made it, bad luck. Did you make a listen check for the shop owners, or just decide that they woke up and heard something? What was the Listen DC for whatever noise the Rogue made? Did you modify it for distance, intervening walls and the like -- it's +1 to DC per 10 feet from the noise, and +15 for intervening stone walls or +5 for an intervening door. I'd say an intervening wooden wall would be +5 like a door. Fourth attempt was tonight,This one sounds like pure foolishness on the part of the Rogue. One pound of steel falling onto cobble stones (no grass or anything) would be quite loud indeed. If you want to test it, get a one pound steel object and drop it. Guards were maybe 60 feet away, chilling out against a market stall in front of the shop . . .Did you make a Listen check for the guards? If they were 60 feet away, the DC for the sound would be +6. It's outside, so I don't know if you'd give any bonus for intervening obstacles because the sound would travel around them, but that might be good for a +2, which is less than the +5 for listening through a door. What I see are three possibilities: 1) The player keeps screwing up, but the tasks if done right would've gone fine. 2) I'm being too hard on him, and he should've succeeded 3) Theiving in general is really hard for a low lvl char, and it's neither the DM's fault nor the player's that he's sucked at it.I'd say it's a little of each, but mostly (3). I think (1) and (2) sort of cancel eachother out in the examples you give.