Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Epicuris 06-06-04, 01:13 PM	Greetings fellow gamers. I need your advice on a situation I ran into yesterday when I was DMing. Here's the scoop: We have five players in the game: a rogue, barbarian, Evoker, Cleric of Boccob, and psion (egoist). All of them were at lvl 7 and some of the best players I've ever had the pleasure of gaming with. The adventure was to break into a fortified base of a merchant's guild that has been causing massive trouble. It's controled by a wizard (who they have yet to meet in battle yet) but the wizard's secret second in command, a beholder, was there to meet the group. Now, they ended up killing the beholder, but because the beholder took them by surprise, it was a more challenging encounter than I had antisipated. They fought valiantly and used great tactics, but after the third round the evoker lay dead (finger of death), the Cleric of Boccob was a statue (flesh to stone on which he rolled a one), and since the beholder was 20ft above the ground, the barbarian and rogue were taking it to the beast bow and arrow style. The egoist (and where the trouble begins) had used Overchannel to shapeshift into a wyrmling Gold Dragon with breath weapon (thanks to Metamorphic Transfer). He was taking the beholder on in arial battle when the creature turned its central eye on him. He reverted to his natural form, taking falling damage from his trip to the floor. The real problem started when I ruled that since psionic feats were supernatural in nature that he also lost all his hp from the Psionic Body feat. (For those of you who don't know, the feat gives you +2 hp for every psionic feat you have.) Soon after, the psion died due to telekineticly thrown object. The egoist's player was so ****** that he left the table and went home, but not before saying that I was wrong in my interpretation of the rules. Unfortunately, two other players are friends of his and, while they had the manners to stay until the session was over, said they would not be back until he was. As I said, they ended up winning the encounter, at a price, but in the end, everyone was alive and rolling in GP and XP. I put it too you: Could I have handled this better? Do I talk to the others and explain I was just following the rules as I understood them? Try to smooth things over? Or do I do keep to my plan and continue with the remaining players? (The barbarian and evoker still want to play.) Thanks for your advice.
Salla 06-06-04, 01:29 PM	I can't recall if Psionic feats are Supernatural in nature or not ... I believe they are, and if so, then you made the correct call. If this player was so immature as to throw a tantrum because his character died in a game, then you're better off without him.
Epicuris 06-06-04, 01:30 PM	Originally posted by Salla I can't recall if Psionic feats are Supernatural in nature or not ... I believe they are, and if so, then you made the correct call. p. 39 of the XPH.
Ehlana 06-06-04, 03:04 PM	From the 3.5 SRD: Supernatural Abilities: Some creatures have psionic abilities that are considered supernatural. Psionic feats are also supernatural abilities. These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as powers can be, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity (except as noted in their descriptions). Supernatural abilities are not subject to power resistance and cannot be negated or dispelled; however, they do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed.
Iron Chef Vastrox 06-06-04, 05:28 PM	It's not really that important that the Psionic feats are supernatural, but rather that everybody just left a previously fun campaign. I don't like to pass judgment on 'you're a bad DM/player', but I'd try to point out a few of the emotional instances that could have led to this event: A Beholder is a CR 13. Your party is slightly larger than normal, but the average level is 7. They certainly shouldn't have been going against a CR 13, especially one like the Beholder whose special abilities involve flight, antimagic, and juicy save-or-dies. In general, 7th level characters just aren't equipped to operate against that sort of foe. As a player, I've been in more than a few PCstomps where the encounter seemed engineered to kill us. A Beholder getting a jump on a party 5-6 ECLs its lesser sounds like that sort of situation. Plus, if these characters had been enjoyed to the point where they had become personally meaningful to experienced gamers, watching a Beloved PC try and die against a monster that they KNOW they can't beat without DM Godlightning would be rather emotionally trying. My guess is that taking his HP away was simply the straw that broke the camel's back; not really dependent on rules interpretations but rather the culmination of the previous factors. You were following the rules with regards to Psionic Feats, but not quite so much with reasonable Encounter CR.
Epicuris 06-06-04, 05:38 PM	Originally posted by Iron Chef Vastrox A Beholder is a CR 13. Your party is slightly larger than normal, but the average level is 7. OK... my face is red. That was a misprint on my part. The level of the characters were 17. That's why I didn't expect it to be that difficult.
Rasmus 06-06-04, 05:48 PM	OH 17! Now that's another ballgame! I was thinking the same thing (with the CR and all). I don't use psionics, so I can't really help you with the rules part, but since you state "some of the best players I've ever played with" I think you should do what you can to get the group back together. I've tried the same thing with a good friend of mine. He walked out and was furious the rest of the night, but after cooling down for a couple of days he was ok. Try talking to him after a couple of days. Smooth things over. I mean, why let something silly as a dead character and some rules, get between you and a good game of D&D?
Topolla 06-06-04, 05:54 PM	Most (50% of) encounters are meant to be challenging which should expend 20% of the party's resources. Given the size of the group (5 players rather than 4), I'd think that the encounter only rated at "very difficult." The surprise *might* have shifted that to "overpowering," but given that the party overcame the encounter indicates to me that it was not "overpowering." Many times DMs forget an option at the PC's disposal: to run away. Now, since I don't think that the EL was too high necessarily, I'll comment on the psionics. In the XPH, it gives a couple of variants on how psionics operates. The answer to your query can be found by how you define psionics: psionics uses the same power as magic, or psionics is different from magic. If you rule that psionics is the same as magic, then the character would lose his supernatural powers (i.e. psionic feats) inside the beholder's antimagic cone. If you rule that psionics harnesses a different power from magic, the anti-magic cone would have no effect on the psionic abilities or psionic feats; that would require a "null psionic cone." It seems you rule that magic and psionics are the same in respect to the energy they harness. Show your players this stance from the XPH (pg. 65), and try to be rational with them. Just remember to maintain this stance in the future.
Linthar 06-06-04, 07:40 PM	First of all this might just be a case that the player of the psion needs time to cool down. Sometimes people get so caught up in the heat of the moment that they don't act rationaly. Try talking to the player a few days after the session and see if he's still so upset. However if you have less reasoniable players I can't really help because I have been blessed with a good group and haven't had to deal with problems like this.
Fixxxer 06-06-04, 07:44 PM	Just point him to page 39 of the XPH and show him that your "inturpetation" of the rules was correct. Hopefully, that will solve the problem. If he still wants to be a baby about it, then let him stay gone for good. He seemed perfectly willing to accept your "interpretation" of the rules until his PC died, so it stands to reason that if he doesn't accept your ruling, even when it's backed up by the rulebooks, that his tantrum is just sour grapes. Trust me, you don't need that kind of aggrivation.
Iron Chef Vastrox 06-07-04, 12:46 AM	Originally posted by Epicuris OK... my face is red. That was a misprint on my part. The level of the characters were 17. That's why I didn't expect it to be that difficult. Whoa. Maybe it was just embarrassment, then. That's like watching your 4th-level party fall to an Orc with a Heavy Crossbow.
Epicuris 06-07-04, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by Iron Chef Vastrox Whoa. Maybe it was just embarrassment, then. That's like watching your 4th-level party fall to an Orc with a Heavy Crossbow. That very well could be. Mind you, the beholder did get the drop on them and they did tend to roll subpar, but that's the chance you take as an adventurer.
primemover003 06-07-04, 04:42 PM	Hey sometimes the good guys lose! You got the drop on them with an encounter that should have been pretty easy. Bad rolls vs. an intelligently played, genius creature = dead PC's... Stick to your guns. You were right, they'll get over it.
bitnine 06-07-04, 05:26 PM	Yeah, you might consider letting them stay gone. I mean, if you want to play a game where you put players up against challenges which they can either succeed or fail by their own merits and methods, maybe that runs against the grain of some folk who don't ever want to see their characters fail or fall. If the player is going to try to control things by throwing a hissyfit when things don't go his way, you really can't stop him from doing that. Sometimes the best you can do is let him be gone and move on with things. I've seen folk toss this about to varying degrees. The worst I ever saw a player act was that I saw someone tell the DM that he demanded that he be allowed to play a strength 18/00 character. When the DM told him no, that he should just roll stats, he went ahead and gave the DM the ultimatum that he either got the 18/00 or he would get in his car and go home. To which the DM folded. That's not something that I'd want to see in any of my games - actually, I'd wager that it's not really something anyone wants to see, but some DMs will let themselves be cowed over a desire to retain players. Not playing may be in some ways the player's veto, but going home and the threat thereof can be used in a very negative faction by players who want to have more control over the game. Maybe you might consider pointing the player in question towards this thread. All things considered, it's possible that he might have other concerns about the game which lead up to this, and hearing his viewpoint might be helpful in resolving things. Also reading the manner in which you presented your concerns might help to defuse things. From the sounds of it, you weren't out to screw the players, you just ran an encounter and pulled no punches. Hopefully you can try to communicate that to you players, even if it feels to them that it might be a bit of the former. There is one other thing, though. If you do get the matter resolved and reintegrate the player into the game, personally, I'd make one thing clear: if he leaves mid-session again, he stays gone. It's just not a constructive or appropriate way to resolve issues, it's disruptive and petty, and you shouldn't have to stand for it.
Fixxxer 06-07-04, 10:02 PM	Originally posted by bitnine The worst I ever saw a player act was that I saw someone tell the DM that he demanded that he be allowed to play a strength 18/00 character. When the DM told him no, that he should just roll stats, he went ahead and gave the DM the ultimatum that he either got the 18/00 or he would get in his car and go home. To which the DM folded. Hmph! Sissy. I've always figured that DMing for a new group of players is a lot like going to prison. The first day, you should flip out and beat someone to death with a chair so that everyone else knows you're serious.
bitnine 06-08-04, 05:52 AM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Hmph! Sissy.Yeah, I was shocked that that worked. I didn't stand up and say anything, but that definately was the only session I attended run by the DM.
vassalich 06-08-04, 08:11 AM	Well, the thing is, thr DM in question here didn't just lose one player, he lost half of his total group in this exchange, so letting them stay gone is probably not a viable option as we don't know the relative availability of players in his particular region. sometimes just saying 'find new players' or 'find a new DM' just isn't a possibility for quite a few people.
Epicuris 06-08-04, 11:30 AM	Originally posted by Fixxxer I've always figured that DMing for a new group of players is a lot like going to prison. The first day, you should flip out and beat someone to death with a chair so that everyone else knows you're serious. Touche', Fixxxer. Touche'. :D
Bedevere 06-08-04, 01:47 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer I've always figured that DMing for a new group of players is a lot like going to prison. The first day, you should flip out and beat someone to death with a chair so that everyone else knows you're serious. Yeah? Well I am harsher than that by far. I actually enforced encumbrance rules once. :devil: