bag + bead of forces + fly = bomb the enemy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

bag + bead of forces + fly = bomb the enemy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
johniemi
09-02-04, 09:11 AM How would you handle a situation like this;

A sorcerer buys 10 beads of force and a sturdy bag. Then when the party is facing an enemy too good for them to handle, he decides to fly 50ft above the enemy and as a full-round action, dump all the beads of force on the enemy's head. (Note that you don't have to hit the enemy, the beads have a 10-foot radius spread!)

Now optimally this SHOULD result in 50d6 points of damage, and ten reflex saves to negate the "resilient sphere" effect (see below):

Bead of Force from SRD:
This small black sphere appears to be a lusterless pearl. You can throw it up to 60 feet with no range penalties. Upon sharp impact, the bead explodes, sending forth a burst that deals 5d6 points of force damage to all creatures within a 10-foot radius. It functions like a resilient sphere spell (Reflex DC 16 negates) with a radius of 10 feet and a duration of 10 minutes. A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the latter is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere

But what would you DM's say to counter this? I already see a few points;

Is it an auto-hit, surely not? Somehow one should resolve each bead separately, I came up with the following options:

(EDIT: Although, remember it's a 10ft radius spread, so it will operate at full potency even if the target is missed by 10 ft.)

1) Dropping 10 beads is a ranged attack with -4 to hit (improvised weapon), and also there should be range increment penalties due to wind etc... but how much? Maybe 30ft range increment penalty, as it is 60ft when thrown normally?

2) I drop the beads, I don't roll anything, but the opponent can make a very simple reflex save (like DC15) for what... half damage?

I see option 1) as better because it is more realistic?

Also an another problem is that quote from the SRD "Upon sharp impact, the bead explodes". Now what is a sharp impact? Can anyone calculate how fast a small bead, a size of a pearl, accelerates into a speed that can deliver a "sharp impact"? My math is lousy... Also, if the bead is dropped, how many ft/round is it going to travel (approximately), I mean, if I drop it from 100ft, it could mean that the opponent moves out of the square before the beads hit him. And if I drop the beads from far far above, maybe the opponent is entitled to a spot check, and if it succeeds, it sees something is dropped and may make a reflex save for half damage?

Anyway, I see this as a realistic and nasty strategy, and as the player has just spent 30,000gp to buy those beads, it damn better should work very well :D

And to clarify, I am the player who came up with this idea, I am not going to say anything to my DM about this but I will buy some beads slowly and if I encounter a life-or-death situation (aren't all fights like that... :rolleyes: ), I will use this strategy... if it looks ok after you guys have commented on it.

I am just hoping to get some feedback from other DM's whether this is a valid strategy YOU would accept. All I have to say to defend my view (which is that this is a nasty and very effective strategy and should be allowed), is the fact that the beads are very expensive and there are easier ways to skin a dragon than this... but this would just be such a funny method. :D

EDIT2: Even more good ideas... What if you attach f.ex. 5 beads together to make a large bead of force and throw that on your enemy...? -4 to hit for being an improvised weapon, but that's about it?

-John
jasper
09-02-04, 09:22 AM treat as a splash attack and scatter each one in individual directions with wind, flying direction and other stuff taken into effect.

So now there is a chance of you hitting your party if they in close combat with the critter.

After the party hoses a few monsters with this tactic use it on them.

Monsters can learn, gods can whisper in npc ears etc.

Or I could limit you to the number of attacks you have. Ex +6+1 you get two beads off. Or using +6+1 you attacks are +2 -4 -9 -14 -19

Or treat as 1 attack but critter gets +2 circumstance bonuse for every bead after the first attack.
Phrennzy
09-02-04, 09:45 AM Here's what you'd get from me:

The bead is a magic item, and must be thrown (per item description) to be effective. If not, should you ever fall into a pit there is a chance of the bag and it's contents suffering a sharp impact and now you've screwed yourself.

This ruling is for your PC's safety and my game balance.

You would be allowed to fly up and throw one bead per round.

It's an inventive idea, but IMO the rules don't allow it. (Thank God).

Also, by not telling the DM about your plan, you are ensuring that it gets Nerfed in a knee jerk reaction, rather than him being rational. Let him know what is going on.
EatFlan
09-02-04, 09:51 AM FYI everything falls on earth @ the speed of 9.8 meters per second per second. Which means that even from 100 feet up that bead will hit the ground in less than 2 seconds. And about the moving out of the way, if the bbeg just happens to move that is fine, not that he can move far in 2 seconds on a round not his turn anyways.

And about the reflex save for 1/2 damage (option 2) that is crap, the beads allow no save for damage. Perhaps a save to avoid individual beads, although this should be very hard as 10 beads falling from 100 feet up will be very hard to see/estimate.
Gray Eminence
09-02-04, 10:19 AM Only one bead of force/attack, so even with a full attack, you can not make more than you are allowed to.

Also, you need a touch attack to hit your tartget. Missing it means you use the grenade like scatter attack.

After the first bead of force, Otiluke's resilient sphere will protect the target from the other bead of forces. (As long as I know how the spell functions.)
EatFlan
09-02-04, 10:47 AM i would allow the drop of multiple beads, b/c of the fact that he is dumping the bag entirely, not selecting them individually and aiming them.

About the sphere protecting, i agree. If the enemy fails the save to be encapsulated the other beads probably just go *bang boom* and i dunno encapsulate any unfortunate animals in the area.

Either way, 10 mins in a sphere of force surrounded by guys waiting for it to stop so they can kill you might be a fate worse than just being blown up.
mythandra
09-02-04, 11:48 AM Here's what you'd get from me:

The bead is a magic item, and must be thrown (per item description) to be effective. If not, <b>should you ever fall into a pit there is a chance of the bag and it's contents suffering a sharp impact</b> and now you've screwed yourself.

This ruling is for your PC's safety and my game balance.

emphasis mine. bolded text is the show stopper. If the text does not <i>specifically mention</i> throwing, you can do this.
Sapper2219
09-02-04, 02:04 PM Beautiful Idea..... the problem that I see with this (I'll have to use a modern example) is that like a fighter/bomber you'll be moving forward as you empty the sack. You end up with a line of beads that strike one at a time. As the other posters mentioned you would only end up with the BBEG trapped as well as a line of effect where the PC's would not be able to move into. Think of carpet bombing. The other thing is that this attack would not be very accurate, at least with out a lot of practice, for hitting one individual target..however on the swarm of orcs pouring down the mountain side.....now that's another story...nothing like trapping half the force before it gets to you.

Also tell the DM what you plan to do, OCC, before it occurs so your DM is prepared and has a method of determining how the attack should be resolved.

IMHO against a single target = waste of time and energy
against mulitple targets = great strategy
EatFlan
09-02-04, 02:08 PM does not have to be carpet bombingesque...the fly spell will allow him to hover correct?

But i must agree, this spell would be far more useful vs. massed enemies rather than 1. Unless that enemy is so scarey that you feel justified w/the expense.
Grayson
09-02-04, 06:22 PM One big problem - the beads won't hit simultaneously (unless the enemy is on absolutely flat ground), so the first beads to hit are going to protect him from the later beads.

I'd allow it to be pretty damn effective - tossing 3k per bead away is not a fun sacrifice to make for a one-shot attack ;)
johniemi
09-03-04, 05:42 AM Thanks for all replies! I see the resilient sphere effect cancelling out all the other beads' damage, so that now becomes the major problem. Oh well, I'm off to look for other magic items that could be used like that ;)

And like I said, this would really be a one-time strategy so my DM wouldn't get too upset. I was thinking that the conditions I would be trying a trick like this would be when I was the only good guy standing and I have run out of spells... well except for the fly spell of course :)

PS. I think I'll inform my DM and print out this thread for him so he can see how other people think about this kind of stuff.

-John

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johniemi 09-02-04, 09:11 AM	How would you handle a situation like this; A sorcerer buys 10 beads of force and a sturdy bag. Then when the party is facing an enemy too good for them to handle, he decides to fly 50ft above the enemy and as a full-round action, dump all the beads of force on the enemy's head. (Note that you don't have to hit the enemy, the beads have a 10-foot radius spread!) Now optimally this SHOULD result in 50d6 points of damage, and ten reflex saves to negate the "resilient sphere" effect (see below): Bead of Force from SRD: This small black sphere appears to be a lusterless pearl. You can throw it up to 60 feet with no range penalties. Upon sharp impact, the bead explodes, sending forth a burst that deals 5d6 points of force damage to all creatures within a 10-foot radius. It functions like a resilient sphere spell (Reflex DC 16 negates) with a radius of 10 feet and a duration of 10 minutes. A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the latter is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere But what would you DM's say to counter this? I already see a few points; Is it an auto-hit, surely not? Somehow one should resolve each bead separately, I came up with the following options: (EDIT: Although, remember it's a 10ft radius spread, so it will operate at full potency even if the target is missed by 10 ft.) 1) Dropping 10 beads is a ranged attack with -4 to hit (improvised weapon), and also there should be range increment penalties due to wind etc... but how much? Maybe 30ft range increment penalty, as it is 60ft when thrown normally? 2) I drop the beads, I don't roll anything, but the opponent can make a very simple reflex save (like DC15) for what... half damage? I see option 1) as better because it is more realistic? Also an another problem is that quote from the SRD "Upon sharp impact, the bead explodes". Now what is a sharp impact? Can anyone calculate how fast a small bead, a size of a pearl, accelerates into a speed that can deliver a "sharp impact"? My math is lousy... Also, if the bead is dropped, how many ft/round is it going to travel (approximately), I mean, if I drop it from 100ft, it could mean that the opponent moves out of the square before the beads hit him. And if I drop the beads from far far above, maybe the opponent is entitled to a spot check, and if it succeeds, it sees something is dropped and may make a reflex save for half damage? Anyway, I see this as a realistic and nasty strategy, and as the player has just spent 30,000gp to buy those beads, it damn better should work very well :D And to clarify, I am the player who came up with this idea, I am not going to say anything to my DM about this but I will buy some beads slowly and if I encounter a life-or-death situation (aren't all fights like that... :rolleyes: ), I will use this strategy... if it looks ok after you guys have commented on it. I am just hoping to get some feedback from other DM's whether this is a valid strategy YOU would accept. All I have to say to defend my view (which is that this is a nasty and very effective strategy and should be allowed), is the fact that the beads are very expensive and there are easier ways to skin a dragon than this... but this would just be such a funny method. :D EDIT2: Even more good ideas... What if you attach f.ex. 5 beads together to make a large bead of force and throw that on your enemy...? -4 to hit for being an improvised weapon, but that's about it? -John
jasper 09-02-04, 09:22 AM	treat as a splash attack and scatter each one in individual directions with wind, flying direction and other stuff taken into effect. So now there is a chance of you hitting your party if they in close combat with the critter. After the party hoses a few monsters with this tactic use it on them. Monsters can learn, gods can whisper in npc ears etc. Or I could limit you to the number of attacks you have. Ex +6+1 you get two beads off. Or using +6+1 you attacks are +2 -4 -9 -14 -19 Or treat as 1 attack but critter gets +2 circumstance bonuse for every bead after the first attack.
Phrennzy 09-02-04, 09:45 AM	Here's what you'd get from me: The bead is a magic item, and must be thrown (per item description) to be effective. If not, should you ever fall into a pit there is a chance of the bag and it's contents suffering a sharp impact and now you've screwed yourself. This ruling is for your PC's safety and my game balance. You would be allowed to fly up and throw one bead per round. It's an inventive idea, but IMO the rules don't allow it. (Thank God). Also, by not telling the DM about your plan, you are ensuring that it gets Nerfed in a knee jerk reaction, rather than him being rational. Let him know what is going on.
EatFlan 09-02-04, 09:51 AM	FYI everything falls on earth @ the speed of 9.8 meters per second per second. Which means that even from 100 feet up that bead will hit the ground in less than 2 seconds. And about the moving out of the way, if the bbeg just happens to move that is fine, not that he can move far in 2 seconds on a round not his turn anyways. And about the reflex save for 1/2 damage (option 2) that is crap, the beads allow no save for damage. Perhaps a save to avoid individual beads, although this should be very hard as 10 beads falling from 100 feet up will be very hard to see/estimate.
Gray Eminence 09-02-04, 10:19 AM	Only one bead of force/attack, so even with a full attack, you can not make more than you are allowed to. Also, you need a touch attack to hit your tartget. Missing it means you use the grenade like scatter attack. After the first bead of force, Otiluke's resilient sphere will protect the target from the other bead of forces. (As long as I know how the spell functions.)
EatFlan 09-02-04, 10:47 AM	i would allow the drop of multiple beads, b/c of the fact that he is dumping the bag entirely, not selecting them individually and aiming them. About the sphere protecting, i agree. If the enemy fails the save to be encapsulated the other beads probably just go bang boom and i dunno encapsulate any unfortunate animals in the area. Either way, 10 mins in a sphere of force surrounded by guys waiting for it to stop so they can kill you might be a fate worse than just being blown up.
mythandra 09-02-04, 11:48 AM	Here's what you'd get from me: The bead is a magic item, and must be thrown (per item description) to be effective. If not, <b>should you ever fall into a pit there is a chance of the bag and it's contents suffering a sharp impact</b> and now you've screwed yourself. This ruling is for your PC's safety and my game balance. emphasis mine. bolded text is the show stopper. If the text does not <i>specifically mention</i> throwing, you can do this.
Sapper2219 09-02-04, 02:04 PM	Beautiful Idea..... the problem that I see with this (I'll have to use a modern example) is that like a fighter/bomber you'll be moving forward as you empty the sack. You end up with a line of beads that strike one at a time. As the other posters mentioned you would only end up with the BBEG trapped as well as a line of effect where the PC's would not be able to move into. Think of carpet bombing. The other thing is that this attack would not be very accurate, at least with out a lot of practice, for hitting one individual target..however on the swarm of orcs pouring down the mountain side.....now that's another story...nothing like trapping half the force before it gets to you. Also tell the DM what you plan to do, OCC, before it occurs so your DM is prepared and has a method of determining how the attack should be resolved. IMHO against a single target = waste of time and energy against mulitple targets = great strategy
EatFlan 09-02-04, 02:08 PM	does not have to be carpet bombingesque...the fly spell will allow him to hover correct? But i must agree, this spell would be far more useful vs. massed enemies rather than 1. Unless that enemy is so scarey that you feel justified w/the expense.
Grayson 09-02-04, 06:22 PM	One big problem - the beads won't hit simultaneously (unless the enemy is on absolutely flat ground), so the first beads to hit are going to protect him from the later beads. I'd allow it to be pretty damn effective - tossing 3k per bead away is not a fun sacrifice to make for a one-shot attack ;)
johniemi 09-03-04, 05:42 AM	Thanks for all replies! I see the resilient sphere effect cancelling out all the other beads' damage, so that now becomes the major problem. Oh well, I'm off to look for other magic items that could be used like that ;) And like I said, this would really be a one-time strategy so my DM wouldn't get too upset. I was thinking that the conditions I would be trying a trick like this would be when I was the only good guy standing and I have run out of spells... well except for the fly spell of course :) PS. I think I'll inform my DM and print out this thread for him so he can see how other people think about this kind of stuff. -John