Bag of holding in a bag of holding. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bag of holding in a bag of holding. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Martinez
06-06-05, 02:18 AM The rogue in my the party found a nice quiver. Thinking he could probably use it later on he put it in his handy haversack. He then found out it was a efficient quiver (the hard way) :P .
Luckily for me (the DM) this happened at the end of the playing session, because I could not find what would happen exactly.

So what happens to this unfortunate rogue and what happens to all the stuff he carried for the rest of the party?

Thanks,
Martinez.
runestar
06-06-05, 02:30 AM If a bag of holding is placed in a bag of holding, the transdimensional spaces will collapse on each other. The effect is a black hole which will suck in anything within 10ft radius of the point of origin. This means the loss of all items in the bag of holding and probably the bearer of the bag as well.
Daeger
06-06-05, 02:46 AM Nope, you're thinking of nondimensional space in extradimensional space.

What I've heard is Extradimensional space can be put in extradimensional space SOMEWHAT safely.. read rope trick, extra dimensional space, and multiple rope tricks can be used inside each other. It's just not the safest thing in the world.

I'd give the player a warning and next time start rolling percentiles, a 5% chance should do it.
Venom of the Yuan Ti
06-06-05, 02:52 AM I am pretty sure taking an extradimentional space into another extradimentional space is also pretty dangerous, maybe they end up sealing each other. Perminantly.
Szat
06-06-05, 02:55 AM I'm pretty sure both the extradimensional spaces are destroyed as is everything in it.
Daeger
06-06-05, 02:57 AM From the Rope Trick description..

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

It is indeed hazardous, that's some bad mojo right there, but I disagree with the fact that they'd seal each other off. I mean, it's definitely a possibility, but it's not a certainty. I'd roll percentiles for it. And keeping it in there for extended ammounts of time would also provoke more rolls.
Szat
06-06-05, 02:59 AM What exactly is an efficient quiver. Is it that same as a Quiver of Ehlonna? It's just like a portable hole but for arrows and such right?
Daeger
06-06-05, 03:02 AM What exactly is an efficient quiver. Is it that same as a Quiver of Ehlonna? It's just like a portable hole but for arrows and such right?

Portable hole creates nondimensional space. My understanding of the difference between them is that one is a gateway to sort of a blank plane to hold stuff (extradimensional), and the other creates a space that isn't really there (nondimensional). When the two get mixed up, bad stuff happens.
Szat
06-06-05, 03:08 AM Any way you slice it bad stuff happens. There are just two different effects. If a extradimensional enters a nondimensional then they're both destroyed. If a nondimensional enters an extradimensional then they're both destroyed and everything within 10 feet is sucked into the Astral Plane.
Martinez
06-06-05, 03:49 AM So there is no other rule than:
It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

I already ruled that all his stuff is probably gone. But if there is actually only 5% change that would happen I will let him roll that change
Daeger
06-06-05, 04:05 AM So there is no other rule than:
It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

I already ruled that all his stuff is probably gone. But if there is actually only 5% change that would happen I will let him roll that change

No, no, I was saying that's what I would do. It's open to your interpretation, but honestly I wouldn't make it completely certain. Just have him roll some percentiles and judge from there.
Szat
06-06-05, 04:15 AM No no. But it IS certain. Read what happens between a portable hole and a bag of holding. Same rule applies. Both items are gone, as is everything in them. The only difference is if everything within 10 feet of the item also goes with it. This would include the bearer of the item.
Sargon
06-06-05, 04:25 AM yeah, A Bag of Holding inside a Bag of holding inside a bag of holding it creates a black hole thats sucks everything in it and around it to the Astral.
Zweanslord
06-06-05, 04:47 AM I don't think so.

A Bag of Holding opens into a nondimensional space. A Portable Hole causes an extradimensional space to exist. A rope trick says that it is hazardous to bring extradimensional spaces in extradimensional spaces or to create one in it. A Bag of Holding + a Portable Hole = Disaster.
Since putting a Bag of Holding in a Bag of Holding is not putting an extradimensional space in another extradimensional space, nor putting a Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole, so nothing disastrous happens.
Also, technicly, because in the description of a Bag of Holding and a Portable Hole only says that something bad happens if a Bag of Holding and a Portable Hole are brought together, but not referring to extradimensional space in nondimensional and vica versa, it can be argued that a Bag of Holding can be safely brought in a Rope Trick extradimensional space.
Oh and a Quiver of Ehlonna is a nondimensional space.

Bag of Holding: This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. Regardless of what is put into the bag, it weighs a fixed amount. This weight, and the limits in weight and volume of the bag’s contents, depend on the bag’s type, as shown on the table below.
If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever. If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate. Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.
If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.
Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest.

Portable Hole: A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains.
The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.
Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, plane shift; Price 20,000 gp.

Hmm.. Quiver of Ehlonna is not in SRD, anyway it has three nondimensional spaces.
Szat
06-06-05, 05:15 AM I agree with the extradimensional space in extradimensional space thing. However since a definiton of what types of space both bags of holding and portable holes is given it's logical to assume that the samer rules apply to other extradimensional items.
Martinez
06-06-05, 05:17 AM Hmm.. Quiver of Ehlonna is not in SRD, anyway it has three nondimensional spaces.

It is called an efficient quiver now.

So far:
So nondimensional space in extradimensional space is bad
and an extradimensional in a nondimensional space is bad
And an extradimensional space in extradimensional space hazardous

And a nondimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere.

Martinez
Zweanslord
06-06-05, 05:23 AM It is called an efficient quiver now.

Ah, thanks.

So far:
So nondimensional space in extradimensional space is bad
and an extradimensional in a nondimensional space is bad
And an extradimensional space in extradimensional space hazardous

And a nondimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere.

Martinez

Well, I'd actually argue it's so far:

A Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole is bad.
A Portable Hole in a a Bag of Holding is bad.
An extradimensional space in another extradimensional space hazardous.

A nondimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere.
An extradimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere, with the exception of the case of a Portable Hole in a Bag of Holding.
A nondimensional space in an extradimensional space is not described anywhere, with the exception of the case of a Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole.
Venom of the Yuan Ti
06-06-05, 05:45 AM It is called an efficient quiver now.

So far:
So nondimensional space in extradimensional space is bad
and an extradimensional in a nondimensional space is bad
And an extradimensional space in extradimensional space hazardous

And a nondimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere.

Martinez
Trust me, it will be bad. BTW I had fun one sesion when a party carring Hawards handy havesack (non-dimentional) went into Mordiekens maginificnet mansion (extrdimentional). PING!
Sir Todd
06-06-05, 06:04 AM I find it amusing that in the SRD quote for Portable Hole they call it an extradimensional space then later in the same description say it opens to a nondimensional space.

If you want to follow what it appears the designers intended (I see very little difference in the two effects a rift to the astral or gate to the same place). Clearly the two containers and everything inside are lost. I guess its up to you as a GM whether you want to have a split up party and the additional disruption to the campaign by having everything in 10 feet sucked to the astral.

For trivia sake in previous editions putting a bag of devouring into a portable hole created a monster known as the wandering pit. :) Although don't ask me what book the wandering pit was in... I simply don't remember anymore.
Martinez
06-06-05, 06:29 AM If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

let say this happens.
how long will the gate to the astral plane stay open.
Santrilla
06-06-05, 06:39 AM It's been addressed in the FAQ, I believe. Give me a few minutes and I'll find a reference...
Sailor V
06-06-05, 07:01 AM Im pretty sure I read about this In Legacy of the Drow Quadroligy. A chest of holding was getting siezed my another holding spell and so the very fabric of magic was destroyed. This resulted in a whirlpool (This took place in the ocean) So according to R.A Salvatore's interpretation, this is what will happen!
Daeger
06-06-05, 07:43 AM Oops, looks like I got my terms mixed up.

I could have SWORN a bag of holding was extradimensional.
SnowbearK
06-06-05, 09:13 AM Im pretty sure I read about this In Legacy of the Drow Quadroligy. A chest of holding was getting siezed my another holding spell and so the very fabric of magic was destroyed. This resulted in a whirlpool (This took place in the ocean) So according to R.A Salvatore's interpretation, this is what will happen!

:rofl:

Using fiction to back up rules, especially Salvatore, is pretty close to sending a gold-engraved invite to the thread to a torch-wielding mob, y'know.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Martinez 06-06-05, 02:18 AM	The rogue in my the party found a nice quiver. Thinking he could probably use it later on he put it in his handy haversack. He then found out it was a efficient quiver (the hard way) :P . Luckily for me (the DM) this happened at the end of the playing session, because I could not find what would happen exactly. So what happens to this unfortunate rogue and what happens to all the stuff he carried for the rest of the party? Thanks, Martinez.
runestar 06-06-05, 02:30 AM	If a bag of holding is placed in a bag of holding, the transdimensional spaces will collapse on each other. The effect is a black hole which will suck in anything within 10ft radius of the point of origin. This means the loss of all items in the bag of holding and probably the bearer of the bag as well.
Daeger 06-06-05, 02:46 AM	Nope, you're thinking of nondimensional space in extradimensional space. What I've heard is Extradimensional space can be put in extradimensional space SOMEWHAT safely.. read rope trick, extra dimensional space, and multiple rope tricks can be used inside each other. It's just not the safest thing in the world. I'd give the player a warning and next time start rolling percentiles, a 5% chance should do it.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 06-06-05, 02:52 AM	I am pretty sure taking an extradimentional space into another extradimentional space is also pretty dangerous, maybe they end up sealing each other. Perminantly.
Szat 06-06-05, 02:55 AM	I'm pretty sure both the extradimensional spaces are destroyed as is everything in it.
Daeger 06-06-05, 02:57 AM	From the Rope Trick description.. Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. It is indeed hazardous, that's some bad mojo right there, but I disagree with the fact that they'd seal each other off. I mean, it's definitely a possibility, but it's not a certainty. I'd roll percentiles for it. And keeping it in there for extended ammounts of time would also provoke more rolls.
Szat 06-06-05, 02:59 AM	What exactly is an efficient quiver. Is it that same as a Quiver of Ehlonna? It's just like a portable hole but for arrows and such right?
Daeger 06-06-05, 03:02 AM	What exactly is an efficient quiver. Is it that same as a Quiver of Ehlonna? It's just like a portable hole but for arrows and such right? Portable hole creates nondimensional space. My understanding of the difference between them is that one is a gateway to sort of a blank plane to hold stuff (extradimensional), and the other creates a space that isn't really there (nondimensional). When the two get mixed up, bad stuff happens.
Szat 06-06-05, 03:08 AM	Any way you slice it bad stuff happens. There are just two different effects. If a extradimensional enters a nondimensional then they're both destroyed. If a nondimensional enters an extradimensional then they're both destroyed and everything within 10 feet is sucked into the Astral Plane.
Martinez 06-06-05, 03:49 AM	So there is no other rule than: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. I already ruled that all his stuff is probably gone. But if there is actually only 5% change that would happen I will let him roll that change
Daeger 06-06-05, 04:05 AM	So there is no other rule than: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. I already ruled that all his stuff is probably gone. But if there is actually only 5% change that would happen I will let him roll that change No, no, I was saying that's what I would do. It's open to your interpretation, but honestly I wouldn't make it completely certain. Just have him roll some percentiles and judge from there.
Szat 06-06-05, 04:15 AM	No no. But it IS certain. Read what happens between a portable hole and a bag of holding. Same rule applies. Both items are gone, as is everything in them. The only difference is if everything within 10 feet of the item also goes with it. This would include the bearer of the item.
Sargon 06-06-05, 04:25 AM	yeah, A Bag of Holding inside a Bag of holding inside a bag of holding it creates a black hole thats sucks everything in it and around it to the Astral.
Zweanslord 06-06-05, 04:47 AM	I don't think so. A Bag of Holding opens into a nondimensional space. A Portable Hole causes an extradimensional space to exist. A rope trick says that it is hazardous to bring extradimensional spaces in extradimensional spaces or to create one in it. A Bag of Holding + a Portable Hole = Disaster. Since putting a Bag of Holding in a Bag of Holding is not putting an extradimensional space in another extradimensional space, nor putting a Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole, so nothing disastrous happens. Also, technicly, because in the description of a Bag of Holding and a Portable Hole only says that something bad happens if a Bag of Holding and a Portable Hole are brought together, but not referring to extradimensional space in nondimensional and vica versa, it can be argued that a Bag of Holding can be safely brought in a Rope Trick extradimensional space. Oh and a Quiver of Ehlonna is a nondimensional space. Bag of Holding: This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. Regardless of what is put into the bag, it weighs a fixed amount. This weight, and the limits in weight and volume of the bag’s contents, depend on the bag’s type, as shown on the table below. If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever. If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate. Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest. Portable Hole: A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains. The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process. Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, plane shift; Price 20,000 gp. Hmm.. Quiver of Ehlonna is not in SRD, anyway it has three nondimensional spaces.
Szat 06-06-05, 05:15 AM	I agree with the extradimensional space in extradimensional space thing. However since a definiton of what types of space both bags of holding and portable holes is given it's logical to assume that the samer rules apply to other extradimensional items.
Martinez 06-06-05, 05:17 AM	Hmm.. Quiver of Ehlonna is not in SRD, anyway it has three nondimensional spaces. It is called an efficient quiver now. So far: So nondimensional space in extradimensional space is bad and an extradimensional in a nondimensional space is bad And an extradimensional space in extradimensional space hazardous And a nondimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere. Martinez
Zweanslord 06-06-05, 05:23 AM	It is called an efficient quiver now. Ah, thanks. So far: So nondimensional space in extradimensional space is bad and an extradimensional in a nondimensional space is bad And an extradimensional space in extradimensional space hazardous And a nondimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere. Martinez Well, I'd actually argue it's so far: A Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole is bad. A Portable Hole in a a Bag of Holding is bad. An extradimensional space in another extradimensional space hazardous. A nondimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere. An extradimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere, with the exception of the case of a Portable Hole in a Bag of Holding. A nondimensional space in an extradimensional space is not described anywhere, with the exception of the case of a Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 06-06-05, 05:45 AM	It is called an efficient quiver now. So far: So nondimensional space in extradimensional space is bad and an extradimensional in a nondimensional space is bad And an extradimensional space in extradimensional space hazardous And a nondimensional space in a nondimensional space is not described anywhere. Martinez Trust me, it will be bad. BTW I had fun one sesion when a party carring Hawards handy havesack (non-dimentional) went into Mordiekens maginificnet mansion (extrdimentional). PING!
Sir Todd 06-06-05, 06:04 AM	I find it amusing that in the SRD quote for Portable Hole they call it an extradimensional space then later in the same description say it opens to a nondimensional space. If you want to follow what it appears the designers intended (I see very little difference in the two effects a rift to the astral or gate to the same place). Clearly the two containers and everything inside are lost. I guess its up to you as a GM whether you want to have a split up party and the additional disruption to the campaign by having everything in 10 feet sucked to the astral. For trivia sake in previous editions putting a bag of devouring into a portable hole created a monster known as the wandering pit. :) Although don't ask me what book the wandering pit was in... I simply don't remember anymore.
Martinez 06-06-05, 06:29 AM	If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process. let say this happens. how long will the gate to the astral plane stay open.
Santrilla 06-06-05, 06:39 AM	It's been addressed in the FAQ, I believe. Give me a few minutes and I'll find a reference...
Sailor V 06-06-05, 07:01 AM	Im pretty sure I read about this In Legacy of the Drow Quadroligy. A chest of holding was getting siezed my another holding spell and so the very fabric of magic was destroyed. This resulted in a whirlpool (This took place in the ocean) So according to R.A Salvatore's interpretation, this is what will happen!
Daeger 06-06-05, 07:43 AM	Oops, looks like I got my terms mixed up. I could have SWORN a bag of holding was extradimensional.
SnowbearK 06-06-05, 09:13 AM	Im pretty sure I read about this In Legacy of the Drow Quadroligy. A chest of holding was getting siezed my another holding spell and so the very fabric of magic was destroyed. This resulted in a whirlpool (This took place in the ocean) So according to R.A Salvatore's interpretation, this is what will happen! :rofl: Using fiction to back up rules, especially Salvatore, is pretty close to sending a gold-engraved invite to the thread to a torch-wielding mob, y'know.