| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| The_Dark_One09-15-04, 05:05 PM | I have no idea how the legendary Bag Of Rats (tm) trick is supposed to work. I can't imgagine a scenario where Cleave + rats = anything useful. Can you explain it? :confused: I feel like an idiot. :embarrass |
| eRaz0r09-15-04, 05:10 PM | The way I understand it, you take a bag of rats and Great Cleave and Whirlwind attack. You dump out the rats and use Whirlwind attack. Since you attack everything in 5' with your WWA, you kill all the rats. Each time you kill a rat, you get a free attack on an adjacent enemy. This is your real target. So each dead rat = a free attack on the enemy. WWA doesn't have a limit on the number of enemies you attack in a turn. Great Cleave doesn't limit you to the number of Cleave attempts in a round. It's cheesy because it means the only limit to the number of attacks in a turn is the number of rats in your bag. (actually, If you have Combat Reflexes, you don't need WWA, since each rat could provoke an AoO when trying to run away, meaning a free dead rat and a free attack on your target.... But this requires a high Dex bonus and CR to make the most of... Same effect, different way of getting it.) |
| Captain Obvious09-15-04, 05:20 PM | Sure, a stilted reading of the rules could lead one to believe this is a real tactic, but c'mon folks... this is why Odin gave DM's common sense. The idea that a whirling fighter could hit a large number of rats with one long sword swing is just silly. That they could then, in each instance, exploit their strike to gain advantage on an opponent is something that deserves Alturik's shovel-to-the-head response. *Wham!* Dig, dig, dig. Great Cleave was created in the belief that the number of adjacent opponents is limited, because only so many creatures can surround a character. Bringing in a bag of rats/snakes/insects/war hampsters into a fight in my campaign is likely to result in the PC getting swarmed by his intended targets. |
| Finarin Panjoro09-15-04, 05:21 PM | It doesn't work anymore because in 3.5 you can't cleave off of a whirlwind attack. In 3.0 you could. The combat reflexes thing would work, but the DM is always free to say that the rats just freeze up, unsure what to do, so that they don't provoke any AoOs. |
| The_Dark_One09-15-04, 06:23 PM | I can't think of any response to that tactic, except "My God, that's stupid." Even if you could Cleave from a Whirlwind attack, it should only generate a single Cleave opportunity. If this worked in 3.5 I'd let it happen. I'd let the bfighter ill all the rats, then allow him to take make a single Cleave. Why? Well, everyone knows that a Rat Swarm is one creature. Wouldn't this have been the way it worked in 3.0 as well? |
| Burgundy Lotus09-15-04, 06:30 PM | THere were no swarms in 3.0 when it came out so each rat was it's own creature. |
| Aerunation09-15-04, 06:51 PM | Jesus! why not just take the whirlwind attack on the enemies and use the cleave to kill the ones you didn't. Either way you're doing the same thing. Bag of rats is useless. |
| trapspringer09-15-04, 06:56 PM | Because I know I can cram 16 dragons around me, and then kill all but a few of them in a single hit. |
| Burgundy Lotus09-15-04, 07:03 PM | Jesus! why not just take the whirlwind attack on the enemies and use the cleave to kill the ones you didn't. Either way you're doing the same thing. Bag of rats is useless. Not if there is only one strong enemy, and WWA and Cleave no longer work together, so it's Com Ref (high Dex) and great cleave do it almost as well though. |
| Aerunation09-15-04, 07:06 PM | Not if there is only one strong enemy, and WWA and Cleave no longer work together, so it's Com Ref (high Dex) and great cleave do it almost as well though. ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ..............................? :) |
| Burgundy Lotus09-15-04, 07:26 PM | ???? |
| Aerunation09-15-04, 07:54 PM | ???? .....I understood not :mymy: |
| Burgundy Lotus09-15-04, 08:26 PM | I mean if there is only one strong enemy instead of many weaker ones like you suggest then WWA will not work. Using the BoR would give you the extra easy kills you need to get numerous attacks against that one strong foe. Also since WWA and Cleave no longer work together you'll need to use Combat Reflexes with Great cleave to do this. Hope that was clearer. |
| shift24409-15-04, 08:54 PM | to further elaborate: hypothetical situation #1: XXX X = enemy XAX A = said PC XXX now, WWA + Great Cleave + 20 rats = 1 attack at each enemy (8) + 20 from klling rats = 28 attacks hypothetical situation #2: B B = BBEG A A = said PC now, WWA + Great Cleave + 20 rats = 1 attack at BBEG + 20 from klling rats = 21 attacks at BBEG. otherwise, the average fighter, with TWF and hasted would at most get 8, prior to epic levels. and this does not factor in the damage possiblity that said PC is using a great sword or something. another note on Combat Reflexes, it is still limited by Dex, of which most Fighters tend to be low on. edit: as a note, i suddenly thought that maybe the trick should be allowed. it would make a good RP experience to carry the rats, and prevent them from dying by suffocation, lack of food, attacking each other, getting away etc etc. not to mention finding and catching the numbers, though that would likely be less of a problem. i can just feel an evil, sadistic laughter comming as you announce that you allow the trick to their glee, and then say that only 5 rats are alive when the bag is dropped. the rest being bitten to death etc etc... |
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target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=xxx">XXX</a></a></a></a></a> now, WWA + Great Cleave + 20 rats = 1 attack at each enemy (8) + 20 from klling rats = 28 attacks hypothetical situation #2: B B = BBEG A A = said PC now, WWA + Great Cleave + 20 rats = 1 attack at BBEG + 20 from klling rats = 21 attacks at BBEG. otherwise, the average fighter, with TWF and hasted would at most get 8, prior to epic levels. and this does not factor in the damage possiblity that said PC is using a great sword or something. another note on Co<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MBA">MBA</a>"><a target="_blank" 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href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MBA">MBA</a>"><a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MBA">MBA</a></a>"><a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MBA">MBA</a>"><a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MBA">MBA</a></a></a>"><a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MBA">MBA</a>"><a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MBA">MBA</a></a>"><a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MBA">MBA</a>"><a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MBA">mba</a></a></a></a></a>t Reflexes, it is still limited by Dex, of which most Fighters tend to be low on. edit: as a note, i suddenly thought that maybe the trick should be allowed. it would make a good RP experience to carry the rats, and prevent them from dying by suffocation, lack of food, attacking each other, getting away etc etc. not to mention finding and catching the numbers, though that would likely be less of a problem. i can just feel an evil, sadistic laughter comming as you announce that you allow the trick to their glee, and then say that only 5 rats are alive when the bag is dropped. the rest being bitten to death etc etc...but you cannot use cleave with whirlwind attack, so my elaborate? EDIT: this is not annallivvie, just forgot to log off her screen name again:) -Aerunation |
| Naeron09-16-04, 07:38 AM | which was what was pointed out Aerunation. Under 3.0 Bag of Rats, Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave was a way of generating a huge number of attacks on a BBEG. In 3.5 Whirlwind Attack forces you to give up additional attacks such as those from Great Cleave. Therefore the only way that it could be made to work is by dropping a number of creatures that then run away from the fighter. With combat reflexes all the AoO's that killing the fleeing creatures can be used with great cleave to hit the BBEG. Rats don't work in 3.5 as they are now a swarm but other creatures would if they do not form a swarm (or they dont just freeze in place). |
| Nurgan_the_drunked09-16-04, 08:03 AM | Only 20 rats??? What have you got in your bag of holding that's so important? :D |
| ksbsnowowl09-16-04, 10:38 AM | You know, I think I just thought of another way to 'duplicate' the bag of rats trick (for 3.0), and it is a method that doesn't allow the DM to state that all the rats killed each other in the bag. Get a ring or some type of command word item that duplicates Mirror Image at 8th caster level, I dunno, 3 times a day. Activate said item, walk up to the BBEG, then proceed to WWA your own images, gaining a cleave attack for each one that you strike. Hmm...to bad you can't force your images to walk away from you... |
| crazysamaritan09-16-04, 11:48 AM | The Bag of Rats is like Shroedinger's cat. a hypothetical situation that shares a principal through metaphor. The BoR probem is an extrapolation of the fact a single BBEG with flunkies was an easier encounter than the BBEG by themselves. for example, a Devil and kobolds. You WWA the kobolds, getting an additional attack against the Devil. Under the current rules, the ComRflx might allow an attack, but only as the kobolds do something stupid (3 stooges style!) Anyway, Combat Reflexes is limited enough, I wouldn't mind too much. However, if your fighter is killing too many like that, then the next dragon you face, as soon as it gets close, will whip out it's Bag of Commoners...... :devil: (shamelessly ripped from another thread) |