Bailing Them Out.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bailing Them Out.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Firelighter
04-20-08, 07:10 PM I'm going to keep this short and to the point....

In your opinion...is it okay for a DM to bail his players out of a situation that, after he thinks about it, they probably could not win? In my case, putting the party against enemies that were too high level for them in the first place. Would bailing them out in a creative way be too much like holding their hands...especially when I don't plan on such bailouts as a regular thing?
Watsyurname529
04-20-08, 07:22 PM Well, if it a legitiment screw up on your (the DM) part, then it is okay to bail them out not to kill them, but try not to be so "An angel comes down and smites the demons and saves you." Try to be subtile, even if it is fudging a few rolls or something.

Now, if the players create the deadly situation for themselves, hold no punches. If the players decide to go and kill a Dragon with they are level 4 and find them selves in the Dragon's stomach, let them face the penalties.

So yea, if it was a pure accident, like underestimating mosnters, then it is okay to "bail them out" so not to kill them. Just don't let it happen too often.
geekling
04-20-08, 07:33 PM Depends very much on your players.

Some hate it with a fire or a thousand suns. Well nearly at least.

Others are more reasonable about it and does understand that the DM can make misstakes and that a TPK because the DM screwed up on an encounter is no fun for anyone. Apart for maybe type 1 players. So the occational ooops! don't spoil the game.

While some others are all for the bailing out even if not so subtly when it starts looking hairy for the party, because they hate it when characters die when they shouldn't (for example when a character decides to make a heroic sacrifice, or similar 'planned' or at least volontary death) as that disrupts the bits of the game they enjoy the most.

So, as with all things. Talk to your players, communication is a good thing.
UndeadMouse
04-20-08, 07:55 PM Usually, at least in the games I run, it is easy to change things behind the scenes to make them easier.
Puzzles are the only thing I can't change easily without putting something in game, like a note with hints or something.

You should definitly try to avoid the Angel Saves and gives you +20 to something scenario, because that almost always damages you player's belief in the reality of your world.
Zuggster
04-20-08, 08:18 PM Depending on how it happened, the NPCs could end up taking the party prisoner, and then you have to have the PCs figure out a way to escape and gather their possessed gear or some such. Any "Survivors" who fled could try to help them escape.

As was said above, if they bit off more than they could chew, let them be eaten instead. I've seen many a DM (including myself) who thought something would be easier for the party, and they missed a detail or two that would have made it easier.

I remember going out of our way to find an artifact to render the "Guardian" useless, and then completely not linking the fact the Purple Worm in the "Protected Chamber" was the Guardian. We didn't lose anyone (almost did), but we were in bad shape for the encounter(s) that followed (which featured 3 PC deaths and 3 PC run NPC deaths). That was the finally of the campaign, but it was close.
weasel2007
04-20-08, 08:58 PM I say pretty much the same as everyone else, it's okay if it is the dms fault and can be fixed with sutblety but if the pcs brought it on themselves then pull no punches
Dash Branaghan
04-20-08, 09:10 PM Bailing out the PCs?

If the mistake is mine, sure.

If the mistake is theirs, never.
pigknight
04-20-08, 10:33 PM Well cosigning is dangerous because if they skip bail...

Oh, that bailing. Sure if it's you're fault.
AntiDjinn
04-20-08, 11:22 PM If you have made an error, or the dice were just unkind and through no fault of their own the are being pwned by two blind zero-level kobolds, then go ahead and bail them out. Just try not to be too obvious.

If they have screwed up then maybe once in a blue moon the favorable DM fiat is OK, but really taking away the consequences of bad choices is railroading just as is overruling their smart choices. Do it too often and you get kamikaze PC syndrome: The characters who appear downright suicidal because they realize you won't let them die not matter what they do and whose sole joy in an otherwise unchallenging game is seeing how far you will stretch the credibility of your game to save them from certain death.
Etarnon
04-21-08, 12:14 AM If I'm playing in your game, and you bail my PC out, I'll take it once, especially if I know with my experience, it was too tough.

But if it becomes a regular thing, your game has no teeth, or you have not enough experience, and I'll give you some tips out of game.

If you don't seem to be picking it up, if you are otherwise easy to deal with, I'll remain for the sake of the game.

But if you get all huffy, or it's a problem, I'm done.

Fixing your own mistakes in an in game believable non Deus Ex is part of your job description as a DM.

But it should be tough, and challenging, and sometimes deadly.
Dash Branaghan
04-21-08, 02:11 AM But if it becomes a regular thing, your game has no teeth, or you have not enough experience, and I'll give you some tips out of game.

You should play in my game if you get the chance...it's almost entirely teeth with no gums and just a little tongue when you least expect it. :P
Etarnon
04-21-08, 02:31 AM Hilarious.

Masterwork +1

Best post all night.

Is your game online?
Dash Branaghan
04-21-08, 02:41 AM No, unfortunately it's not...but if you're ever in Vancouver British Columbia post August this year, let me know...you're welcome to game with us. :D

Though I could always start an online game...*ponders*
Etarnon
04-21-08, 06:25 AM I was there in 1989, when our ship visited. Club Orange? was rocking.

And there was a tiny shop in a tourist district that sold D&D.
Dash Branaghan
04-21-08, 08:55 AM I was there in 1989, when our ship visited. Club Orange? was rocking.

And there was a tiny shop in a tourist district that sold D&D.

You're talking about Gastown from the sounds of it and it was either the Games Workshop (for all your Warhammer needs) or the Games People (across the street, run by my Uncle of all people).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Firelighter 04-20-08, 07:10 PM	I'm going to keep this short and to the point.... In your opinion...is it okay for a DM to bail his players out of a situation that, after he thinks about it, they probably could not win? In my case, putting the party against enemies that were too high level for them in the first place. Would bailing them out in a creative way be too much like holding their hands...especially when I don't plan on such bailouts as a regular thing?
Watsyurname529 04-20-08, 07:22 PM	Well, if it a legitiment screw up on your (the DM) part, then it is okay to bail them out not to kill them, but try not to be so "An angel comes down and smites the demons and saves you." Try to be subtile, even if it is fudging a few rolls or something. Now, if the players create the deadly situation for themselves, hold no punches. If the players decide to go and kill a Dragon with they are level 4 and find them selves in the Dragon's stomach, let them face the penalties. So yea, if it was a pure accident, like underestimating mosnters, then it is okay to "bail them out" so not to kill them. Just don't let it happen too often.
geekling 04-20-08, 07:33 PM	Depends very much on your players. Some hate it with a fire or a thousand suns. Well nearly at least. Others are more reasonable about it and does understand that the DM can make misstakes and that a TPK because the DM screwed up on an encounter is no fun for anyone. Apart for maybe type 1 players. So the occational ooops! don't spoil the game. While some others are all for the bailing out even if not so subtly when it starts looking hairy for the party, because they hate it when characters die when they shouldn't (for example when a character decides to make a heroic sacrifice, or similar 'planned' or at least volontary death) as that disrupts the bits of the game they enjoy the most. So, as with all things. Talk to your players, communication is a good thing.
UndeadMouse 04-20-08, 07:55 PM	Usually, at least in the games I run, it is easy to change things behind the scenes to make them easier. Puzzles are the only thing I can't change easily without putting something in game, like a note with hints or something. You should definitly try to avoid the Angel Saves and gives you +20 to something scenario, because that almost always damages you player's belief in the reality of your world.
Zuggster 04-20-08, 08:18 PM	Depending on how it happened, the NPCs could end up taking the party prisoner, and then you have to have the PCs figure out a way to escape and gather their possessed gear or some such. Any "Survivors" who fled could try to help them escape. As was said above, if they bit off more than they could chew, let them be eaten instead. I've seen many a DM (including myself) who thought something would be easier for the party, and they missed a detail or two that would have made it easier. I remember going out of our way to find an artifact to render the "Guardian" useless, and then completely not linking the fact the Purple Worm in the "Protected Chamber" was the Guardian. We didn't lose anyone (almost did), but we were in bad shape for the encounter(s) that followed (which featured 3 PC deaths and 3 PC run NPC deaths). That was the finally of the campaign, but it was close.
weasel2007 04-20-08, 08:58 PM	I say pretty much the same as everyone else, it's okay if it is the dms fault and can be fixed with sutblety but if the pcs brought it on themselves then pull no punches
Dash Branaghan 04-20-08, 09:10 PM	Bailing out the PCs? If the mistake is mine, sure. If the mistake is theirs, never.
pigknight 04-20-08, 10:33 PM	Well cosigning is dangerous because if they skip bail... Oh, that bailing. Sure if it's you're fault.
AntiDjinn 04-20-08, 11:22 PM	If you have made an error, or the dice were just unkind and through no fault of their own the are being pwned by two blind zero-level kobolds, then go ahead and bail them out. Just try not to be too obvious. If they have screwed up then maybe once in a blue moon the favorable DM fiat is OK, but really taking away the consequences of bad choices is railroading just as is overruling their smart choices. Do it too often and you get kamikaze PC syndrome: The characters who appear downright suicidal because they realize you won't let them die not matter what they do and whose sole joy in an otherwise unchallenging game is seeing how far you will stretch the credibility of your game to save them from certain death.
Etarnon 04-21-08, 12:14 AM	If I'm playing in your game, and you bail my PC out, I'll take it once, especially if I know with my experience, it was too tough. But if it becomes a regular thing, your game has no teeth, or you have not enough experience, and I'll give you some tips out of game. If you don't seem to be picking it up, if you are otherwise easy to deal with, I'll remain for the sake of the game. But if you get all huffy, or it's a problem, I'm done. Fixing your own mistakes in an in game believable non Deus Ex is part of your job description as a DM. But it should be tough, and challenging, and sometimes deadly.
Dash Branaghan 04-21-08, 02:11 AM	But if it becomes a regular thing, your game has no teeth, or you have not enough experience, and I'll give you some tips out of game. You should play in my game if you get the chance...it's almost entirely teeth with no gums and just a little tongue when you least expect it. :P
Etarnon 04-21-08, 02:31 AM	Hilarious. Masterwork +1 Best post all night. Is your game online?
Dash Branaghan 04-21-08, 02:41 AM	No, unfortunately it's not...but if you're ever in Vancouver British Columbia post August this year, let me know...you're welcome to game with us. :D Though I could always start an online game...ponders
Etarnon 04-21-08, 06:25 AM	I was there in 1989, when our ship visited. Club Orange? was rocking. And there was a tiny shop in a tourist district that sold D&D.
Dash Branaghan 04-21-08, 08:55 AM	I was there in 1989, when our ship visited. Club Orange? was rocking. And there was a tiny shop in a tourist district that sold D&D. You're talking about Gastown from the sounds of it and it was either the Games Workshop (for all your Warhammer needs) or the Games People (across the street, run by my Uncle of all people).