Balance Issues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balance Issues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xguild
11-28-04, 01:40 PM I've been running a forgotten realms campaign for my group for about a year now, they have recently hit what I would call the problem level game reaching level 6-7. They have managed to scrounge up a few magical items and scrape together some gold, but more importantly they have delved deep into the heart of the campaigns storyline and begun to take advantage of the many flaws of the D20 system.

The problem I'm having is that once again like all D&D campaigns I've gotten to this point, the issues with the D20 mechanic are becoming very evident.

The way I see it, the D20 D&D system is the single most unbalanced gaming system ever created. In fact I don't think there is a single rule in the entire system that has any sembrence of balance. Take for example simple things like Magic Missle. In the hands of a first level character its not a big deal, but when you hit level 7 for example your rolling a hand full of dice every round. I have a 7th level sorcerer who uses this spell 5-6 times per combat. This spell has no save, no miss chance.. hell short of having magic resistance its basically automatic damage. This simple spell makes creating a balanced encounter almost impossible. I have the reverse problem as well because if I stick in a 7th level sorcerer who does the same thing to the players, somebody is going to die.

I'm a GM that believes that the players have a right to know the rules and use them to their best advantage, and that I have the responsibility to do the same when running villians. The problem with the D20 system however is that as a GM if you run it "straight" without fudging dice or using "GM Cheats", its unlikely that the players can get through more then a couple of sessions without loosing a character.

With that said I have to admit that I don't believe in killing Characters off on random encounters to the roll of the dice. My players put a lot of work into their characters and I want to make sure they are challenged and placed at risk, but only die when they are doing something that is worth dying for. I don't believe having me roll a critical hit at a critical moment when the group is fighting some random non-story related orc is an error by the player, its just dumb bad luck. But I also don't believe that I should have to fluff the dice.

The way I see it there are really three key problems with the system.

1. Hitpoints - A very unrealistic and unbalanced way to keep track of players health

2. Levels - It doesn't make sense to have players level up, gain powers when they reach X amount of Experiance Points. Advancement should be very gradual and very focused.

3. Feats - Just can't seem to find a balance with the feat system. Feats are always either completetly useless or over bearing, exposing flaws in the game mechanic.

I'm not posting this to complain, but rather I want to see how many people have this problem and what they have done to sort of balance things out. Ultimatly we play D&D because its really the only system we've ever used in the last 15 years that our group has been gaming together. It is becoming however harder and harder to focus on the storyline with so many flaws in the basic game mechanic.
shadowflamedancer
11-28-04, 02:06 PM Inital Response: Well, if you don't like it at all then we're not forcing you to play it.

Actually there are other gaming systems out there that are not D20. There is the 2nd E of DnD, shadowrun, and several others. The type of game I would love would be just interactive storytelling, but thats pretty hard to find nowdays. Why back in my time we had to walk ten miles to school in blizzards up hill both ways!
Board_Rider
11-28-04, 03:04 PM I can see your argument Xguild. I am sure almost anyone that has played 3.x has come across game mechanic issues...think spiked chain and the Improved Trip feat.
I can agree on your views of the feats and hit point system but the leveling system can be augmented by training, training cost and downtime. In no way a fix-all but ya gotta start somewhere. You could look at some of the variants in Unearthed Arcana. May help.
As I wrote earlier, everyone has problems with the system (hence these boards), and really the onlyway to circumvent it is to play another game, house rule it or dissalow it.
Friiguy
11-28-04, 03:05 PM Use a brooch of shielding? They absorb up to Onehundred points of Magic Missile damage. It may work the first couple of times your caster enters combat but once he realizes that his Magic Missile isnt working he will resort to other spells and be more wary of what he casts in combat.

Also, if you are having issues with Magic Missile never missing you might want to try a 20% miss chance to the spell.
Best of luck to you.
Aeromus
11-28-04, 03:58 PM The worst exploits come at epic level.

Expecially rogues with very high dex, combat reflexes, improved trip, sneak attack of oppertunity ect...

Yeah, nothing like having reach, ajacent strike, trip+attack +4, and added sneak attack dice to all of that when they provke.

Or swarm of arrows, improved innitaive, suprume inniative...

Nothing like using a standard action to hit everyone within 30 feet, that you beat initiave on with a sneak attack.
Fraser1986
11-28-04, 06:15 PM I've had trouble with the mechanics as well. I'm used to WW games and i find it very difficult to adapt the system to unusual situations. For example, say a pc wanted to make a diving charge off the roof off a small building or something. In WW i'd rule dex+athletics to pull of the dive, and if successful recieve +2 strength due to the weight. In D20 terms i've no idea what to rule. The other problem i've noticed is the bonus for high attributes seem quite low. Say for example someone with strength 18 bullrushes someone with strength 10. Thats like a big american footballer shoulder-barging some avarage joe. In real life the poor guy would probably be unconscious, in D&D he has a reasonable chance of beating the big guy. Having said that, i like the simplicity of combat in D&D and am a fan of the FR setting.
Aeromus
11-28-04, 06:45 PM WW is a far better system then d20. Every gamer knows this.

Have you tried running D&D style games with d10 system? They are very fun, until your players realize maxxing dodge/melee and physicial stats make them awesome.

But, if you have a group of awesome roleplayers, that don't min/max or "power game" WW is > all.

========

Running, dive off a building. Let's say 20' drop, 10' run...would be30' of movement.

+2 to hit, -2 to AC, +2d6 damage to both diver, and enemy. Treat as a trip attempt, if unsuccessful on the trip, diver is prone, if succesful have diver make a reflex save dc 15 or be prone as well.

That's off the top of my head for kicks = P
primemover003
11-28-04, 07:32 PM This spell has no save, no miss chance.. hell short of having magic resistance its basically automatic damage.
While the Brooch of Shielding has been mentioned, you have overlooked the basic 1st level spell that should be part of every Wizard's spell selection... Shield. Protects against magic missle in it's entirety.

I'm a GM that believes that the players have a right to know the rules and use them to their best advantage, and that I have the responsibility to do the same when running villians.
Stick around these boards for a while and you WILL learn enough tricks to mess up any party of PC's... HOWEVER that's not the DM's job. Read the quote in my Signiture and you'll see the reason why.

if you run it "straight" without fudging dice or using "GM Cheats", its unlikely that the players can get through more then a couple of sessions without loosing a character... ...I don't believe having me roll a critical hit at a critical moment when the group is fighting some random non-story related orc is an error by the player, its just dumb bad luck. But I also don't believe that I should have to fluff the dice.
See here's your first mistake. A DM is under no constraint to play it straight. Our job is to make the game fun. We're allowed to fudge rolls. If you roll a lucky Crit on a player and you feel the time isn't right for a character death.... don't confirm the Crit. It's that easy. The flip side of this "assumed" privledge is that the Players ultimately decide how much you can fudge. If the game is a TPK everytime and you're sitting behind the screen gloating over ever failed save by the PC's... you'll be sitting behind that screen BY YOURSELF in no time flat.

1. Hit points... I don't see a problem

2. Levels: Slow down advancement. As/is you need 13.3 encounters = to the Party average level to gain a level. 13 encounters is a lot. If you run 4 or five good combats in a session you should be golden. The key is to vary how hard those 5 encounters are. Two should be easy (EL=PL), one should be Cake (EL-1 or 2). One should be tough (EL+3 or 4), and the last should be moderately hard (EL+1 or 2). A fairly balanced party should NEED to rest after this... of course you know your group, how the play, strength/weaknesses, etc. Flavor these to suit. It'll take practice! It's taken me since 3rd Ed came out to really start to grasp how the mechanics click.

3. Feats: Yes, feats are specific. The more powerful they seem, the less often they'll be used. Which happens more? Using your Dodge bonus or being able to use Great Cleave?

They're supposed to be good, fantastic even! In fact you should be including encounters where the PC's feats will truly shine! (Hell, all of their class abilities)... Fighter just get Whirlwind attack? Throw a horde of low CR creatures at them! (Remember... one of those EL-1 or 2 encounters).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xguild 11-28-04, 01:40 PM	I've been running a forgotten realms campaign for my group for about a year now, they have recently hit what I would call the problem level game reaching level 6-7. They have managed to scrounge up a few magical items and scrape together some gold, but more importantly they have delved deep into the heart of the campaigns storyline and begun to take advantage of the many flaws of the D20 system. The problem I'm having is that once again like all D&D campaigns I've gotten to this point, the issues with the D20 mechanic are becoming very evident. The way I see it, the D20 D&D system is the single most unbalanced gaming system ever created. In fact I don't think there is a single rule in the entire system that has any sembrence of balance. Take for example simple things like Magic Missle. In the hands of a first level character its not a big deal, but when you hit level 7 for example your rolling a hand full of dice every round. I have a 7th level sorcerer who uses this spell 5-6 times per combat. This spell has no save, no miss chance.. hell short of having magic resistance its basically automatic damage. This simple spell makes creating a balanced encounter almost impossible. I have the reverse problem as well because if I stick in a 7th level sorcerer who does the same thing to the players, somebody is going to die. I'm a GM that believes that the players have a right to know the rules and use them to their best advantage, and that I have the responsibility to do the same when running villians. The problem with the D20 system however is that as a GM if you run it "straight" without fudging dice or using "GM Cheats", its unlikely that the players can get through more then a couple of sessions without loosing a character. With that said I have to admit that I don't believe in killing Characters off on random encounters to the roll of the dice. My players put a lot of work into their characters and I want to make sure they are challenged and placed at risk, but only die when they are doing something that is worth dying for. I don't believe having me roll a critical hit at a critical moment when the group is fighting some random non-story related orc is an error by the player, its just dumb bad luck. But I also don't believe that I should have to fluff the dice. The way I see it there are really three key problems with the system. 1. Hitpoints - A very unrealistic and unbalanced way to keep track of players health 2. Levels - It doesn't make sense to have players level up, gain powers when they reach X amount of Experiance Points. Advancement should be very gradual and very focused. 3. Feats - Just can't seem to find a balance with the feat system. Feats are always either completetly useless or over bearing, exposing flaws in the game mechanic. I'm not posting this to complain, but rather I want to see how many people have this problem and what they have done to sort of balance things out. Ultimatly we play D&D because its really the only system we've ever used in the last 15 years that our group has been gaming together. It is becoming however harder and harder to focus on the storyline with so many flaws in the basic game mechanic.
shadowflamedancer 11-28-04, 02:06 PM	Inital Response: Well, if you don't like it at all then we're not forcing you to play it. Actually there are other gaming systems out there that are not D20. There is the 2nd E of DnD, shadowrun, and several others. The type of game I would love would be just interactive storytelling, but thats pretty hard to find nowdays. Why back in my time we had to walk ten miles to school in blizzards up hill both ways!
Board_Rider 11-28-04, 03:04 PM	I can see your argument Xguild. I am sure almost anyone that has played 3.x has come across game mechanic issues...think spiked chain and the Improved Trip feat. I can agree on your views of the feats and hit point system but the leveling system can be augmented by training, training cost and downtime. In no way a fix-all but ya gotta start somewhere. You could look at some of the variants in Unearthed Arcana. May help. As I wrote earlier, everyone has problems with the system (hence these boards), and really the onlyway to circumvent it is to play another game, house rule it or dissalow it.
Friiguy 11-28-04, 03:05 PM	Use a brooch of shielding? They absorb up to Onehundred points of Magic Missile damage. It may work the first couple of times your caster enters combat but once he realizes that his Magic Missile isnt working he will resort to other spells and be more wary of what he casts in combat. Also, if you are having issues with Magic Missile never missing you might want to try a 20% miss chance to the spell. Best of luck to you.
Aeromus 11-28-04, 03:58 PM	The worst exploits come at epic level. Expecially rogues with very high dex, combat reflexes, improved trip, sneak attack of oppertunity ect... Yeah, nothing like having reach, ajacent strike, trip+attack +4, and added sneak attack dice to all of that when they provke. Or swarm of arrows, improved innitaive, suprume inniative... Nothing like using a standard action to hit everyone within 30 feet, that you beat initiave on with a sneak attack.
Fraser1986 11-28-04, 06:15 PM	I've had trouble with the mechanics as well. I'm used to WW games and i find it very difficult to adapt the system to unusual situations. For example, say a pc wanted to make a diving charge off the roof off a small building or something. In WW i'd rule dex+athletics to pull of the dive, and if successful recieve +2 strength due to the weight. In D20 terms i've no idea what to rule. The other problem i've noticed is the bonus for high attributes seem quite low. Say for example someone with strength 18 bullrushes someone with strength 10. Thats like a big american footballer shoulder-barging some avarage joe. In real life the poor guy would probably be unconscious, in D&D he has a reasonable chance of beating the big guy. Having said that, i like the simplicity of combat in D&D and am a fan of the FR setting.
Aeromus 11-28-04, 06:45 PM	WW is a far better system then d20. Every gamer knows this. Have you tried running D&D style games with d10 system? They are very fun, until your players realize maxxing dodge/melee and physicial stats make them awesome. But, if you have a group of awesome roleplayers, that don't min/max or "power game" WW is > all. ======== Running, dive off a building. Let's say 20' drop, 10' run...would be30' of movement. +2 to hit, -2 to AC, +2d6 damage to both diver, and enemy. Treat as a trip attempt, if unsuccessful on the trip, diver is prone, if succesful have diver make a reflex save dc 15 or be prone as well. That's off the top of my head for kicks = P
primemover003 11-28-04, 07:32 PM	This spell has no save, no miss chance.. hell short of having magic resistance its basically automatic damage. While the Brooch of Shielding has been mentioned, you have overlooked the basic 1st level spell that should be part of every Wizard's spell selection... Shield. Protects against magic missle in it's entirety. I'm a GM that believes that the players have a right to know the rules and use them to their best advantage, and that I have the responsibility to do the same when running villians. Stick around these boards for a while and you WILL learn enough tricks to mess up any party of PC's... HOWEVER that's not the DM's job. Read the quote in my Signiture and you'll see the reason why. if you run it "straight" without fudging dice or using "GM Cheats", its unlikely that the players can get through more then a couple of sessions without loosing a character... ...I don't believe having me roll a critical hit at a critical moment when the group is fighting some random non-story related orc is an error by the player, its just dumb bad luck. But I also don't believe that I should have to fluff the dice. See here's your first mistake. A DM is under no constraint to play it straight. Our job is to make the game fun. We're allowed to fudge rolls. If you roll a lucky Crit on a player and you feel the time isn't right for a character death.... don't confirm the Crit. It's that easy. The flip side of this "assumed" privledge is that the Players ultimately decide how much you can fudge. If the game is a TPK everytime and you're sitting behind the screen gloating over ever failed save by the PC's... you'll be sitting behind that screen BY YOURSELF in no time flat. 1. Hit points... I don't see a problem 2. Levels: Slow down advancement. As/is you need 13.3 encounters = to the Party average level to gain a level. 13 encounters is a lot. If you run 4 or five good combats in a session you should be golden. The key is to vary how hard those 5 encounters are. Two should be easy (EL=PL), one should be Cake (EL-1 or 2). One should be tough (EL+3 or 4), and the last should be moderately hard (EL+1 or 2). A fairly balanced party should NEED to rest after this... of course you know your group, how the play, strength/weaknesses, etc. Flavor these to suit. It'll take practice! It's taken me since 3rd Ed came out to really start to grasp how the mechanics click. 3. Feats: Yes, feats are specific. The more powerful they seem, the less often they'll be used. Which happens more? Using your Dodge bonus or being able to use Great Cleave? They're supposed to be good, fantastic even! In fact you should be including encounters where the PC's feats will truly shine! (Hell, all of their class abilities)... Fighter just get Whirlwind attack? Throw a horde of low CR creatures at them! (Remember... one of those EL-1 or 2 encounters).