Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lady Maedhros 01-29-06, 07:37 PM	One thing that's always kind of bothered me about core D&D is the wealth tables. Every class starts out with X gp at first level, period. Enough for some basic equipment and that's it. There's no mechanical way to simulate coming from nobility or inheriting an heirloom of great power, both of which are good hooks for both character RP and plot advancement. Now obviously this is for balance reasons; a level 1 character who can afford a full set of +4 acid resistant adamantium full plate and a pair of +5 vorpal shortswords before his BAB hits +2 is a little bit wrong. Some settings have tried to solve this with feats - take one at level one to be "wealthy" or whatever... but that's a bigger waste of a feat than Toughness, and that's saying something. I don't like my players having to waste feats in order to have roleplaying hooks. And then there's always the occasional screw-up where the BBEG your players were never supposed to touch gets flattened six levels too early, and your characters end up with a bunch of uber stuff they should never have been given access to. I also wanted a good way to mechanically curtail that. So i'm working on this houserule. Let me preface this by saying that i do not own Weapons of Legacy, i have never seen Weapons of Legacy, and i have no interest in ever purchasing Weapons of Legacy, so if this is similar to anything in said book, it's pure coincidence. So here's the houserule as it stands right now: Benefits from magic items are level-dependant – the maximum benefit you get from a magic item is a +1 bonus per three character levels. That is to say, if your boss gives you a +2 shield, at levels 1&2 you treat it as a +1 shield, and then at level 3 and up you get the whole bonus. Or if you have your dad’s +2 brilliant energy longsword (total +6), you treat it as a +1 weapon until level 3. You can’t “split” the brilliant energy bonus, so when you reach level 3, you must choose whether to wait until you hit level 9 to use it as a +1 brilliant, or consider it a +2 sword until level 11 when you can utilize the full bonus. Which plays out like this: Hytus was just a little boy when a bloody young man collapsed on the front porch, pleading for aid. His mother, a powerful paladin, kissed he and his father goodbye and left with a group of her old friends from the village to save a neighboring community from an incursion of undead. The town was saved, but it was a solemn group that returned three weeks later, sorrowfully bearing Hytus' only inheritance - Gravebane, his mother's mother's +2 holy halberd of undead bane. Hytus swore revenge on the foul creatures that had destroyed his family. He's now taken up Gravebane and begun his own adventuring career as a ranger, dedicated to hunting the undead. Obviously, Gravebane, as a +5 weapon worth 50,000 gp (and some change), is well out of Hytus' allowed wealth range as a level 1 character. But under this system, for his first two levels he merely has a +1 halberd - nice, but an effect he could just as easily achieve by playing half-orc. In many campaigns he'd have a +1 weapon already by 2nd level. Now, there are some kinks. In the Gravebane example, Hytus is finally able to use his halberd to full effect at 9th level, when 50,000 gp is still twice his suggested wealth-by-level. The use limit is only by bonus, so wondrous items are still in question (i'm considering some kind of caster level thing, but that's still very much in theory). And there's currently no mechanical hindrance to a level 1 character with seven different stacking +1 bonuses. But considering that weapons and armor only hit a maximum bonus of +10 pre-epic, you really can't make the progression slower than +1/2 levels, otherwise even a level 20 character can't use the best items in the core game. Anyway i think it's a good start. But i'm hardly objective, so, here i am. What do people think? I'm also considering sliding it up one level, because i like the thought of magic items being completely unusable by any level 1 creature, PC or NPC - it's got flavor.
Evangelos 01-29-06, 08:45 PM	I think there are better ways to handle this. First of all, as to your example where the BBEG gets nailed far too early...you should just let the PCs have his gear. Either they came up with some brilliant plan or you had him do something royally stupid. Either way, they deserve their reward. It's not like the game will suddenly become impossible to run just because the PCs have more wealth than the DMG suggests. As for nobility amongst starting PCs, I can think of two solutions. 1. If the character wants to be a noble, force him to write a character history and then say Yes or No based on what he writes. If you accept his history, give him his extra starting wealth but add some disadvantages. Perhaps his family disagrees with his choice of lifestyle and wants to force him to return home, or maybe they even want him dead so that he doesn't disgrace the family name. Or, give him no penalties; in the long run, his extra wealth shouldn't affect the game too much, anyway. In any case, this option assumes that you have a relatively mature group, with no one interested in being a noble just so that they can weasel an extra 500-1000 gp out of you at character creation. 2. Force the character to take some sort of feat, but allow him to rechoose the feat at 5th level. He suffers some drawbacks for a while, but by 5th level his extra starting money hopefully isn't making a big impact anymore (if it is, you probably gave him too much). Alternatively, the noble could just take one level in the Aristocrat class, which has pretty good starting money. If I remember correctly, it has good proficiencies and a 3/4 base attack progression. They're a level behind, but they start with hundreds more gp, which makes early levels easier. If your characters are starting with special items, such as the halberd in your example, then that one is easier. They don't have to start out at "full" power. Gravebane from your example could simply start out as a +1 halberd, but after Hytus wields it in a battle to defeat some undead foe, it grows in power (which could happen in many ways, including his mother's spirit infusing it with more power). This way is cooler than simply saying he can only wield it as a +1 halberd because he is level 1, in my opinion. One possible downside to this is the fact that one character will be starting with a significant wealth advantage, which will (for free) grow in power over the course of the character's career. This means that you may need to give everyone a similar item to balance things out -- unfortunately, this makes these items less unique. Another option is to simply allow the characters to find these items on their own at some point after 1st level. Gravebane could be in the hands of someone else, and Hytus could just happen to meet this person at 7th level or so.
olshanski_home 01-29-06, 08:52 PM	Weapons and armor aren't everything: there are also miscellaneous magical items: That wizard with a ring of wizardry can be quite a powerhouse. Also, you might consider that weapons cost 2x as much as armor or shields for each "plus", and that things like a deflection bonus to AC have a much lower price than say a luck bonus to AC. If you need to make a level-dependant benefit, I'd say you could simply use the expected wealth per level and say that the effectiveness of any item cannot exceed half of the expected wealth per level. This way you'll know when that +3 shield should become active, and when a ring of wizardry is an appropriate item. All that being said, I'd go with the rules as normal, and anyone who is ridiculously wealthy from birth would be "cut-off" by thier parents for going adventuring, or else for some reason an evil duke would have claimed thier family fortune and left them with only standard starting wealth.
tafkamhokie 01-29-06, 09:05 PM	Your real problem is giving a 1st level character access to a 50K gp magic item. That is incredibly easy to remedy...don't do it. But, I am also assuming that is not the answer you were looking for. Let's just say you have already decided to give a 1st level character a 50k gp magic item, and all you really want to know is how to do this without throwing the whole campaign out of whack. Your method is not unreasonable. It allows you to scale a magic item as the character goes up in levels, much like a Weapon of Legacy (even if you don't have the book). If you want to make it a little more interesting, you could tie unlocking the next power of the weapon to completing a quest or even tie it to feat/skill/class ability acquisition much like a prestige class. In your case, maybe something like this: +1 Halberd (no requirements) +2 Halberd (minimum wielder level 6) +2 undead bane halberd (wielder must use halberd to slay a greater undead creature, e.g. mummy lord, vampire, spectre, dread wraith, lich, mohrg, etc) +2 holy undead bane halberd (wielder must use halberd to slay an evil outsider with at least 10 hit dice) Or, if you want to tie it to character abilities instead of a quest, maybe have unlocking the undead bane power tied to a certain number of ranks in Knowledge (religion) and have the holy power require the True Believer feat from Complete Divine. In more general terms, I don't see any problem with scaling magic items so they are appropriate for the character level. The way the rules are written now, you either get rid of your magic items to buy more powerful ones later on, or you pay to have the enchantments on your stuff upgraded as you get more money. Your way, you can give someone a halberd at 1st level that they will likely hang on to for their entire career. It does help add some flavor. I also think you have a reasonably balanced system that should work fairly well. For wondrous items, you probably should tie the character's ability to use it to the creator level of the item. You could probably even introduce a houserule feat that allows characters to be treated as 4 levels higher with respect to the magic items they could use.
dungeonmasterblog 01-29-06, 09:26 PM	The old Unearthed Arcana (1E) had a random table on determining the social class of the character. However it later says it has no bearing on the money the character receives unless they're a paladin of cavalier (one of the new classes in the book). My attitude's always been, let the characters earn the good stuff. Dungeon Master http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com
Board_Rider 01-29-06, 09:39 PM	I noticed that you wrote that campaign settings tried to help remedy the problem that you have for characters. Have you looked at the way Forotten Realms does it? Basically whereevr the PCs hail from they get a couple of items. Minor potions, gold or MW weapons and armor. At first level thats plenty. I would start there. Even a well written background history should only garner so much in items and money in my opinion. I think that you will find that working withing the rules that the PCs will end up being fine with regards to money and equipment. Be :cool:, BR
Milandros 01-29-06, 09:54 PM	I think your approach is perfectly reasonable. Having equipment that improves per level is something I like , and I use it myself in my game. I don't like the idea of Aragorn throwing away Anduril just because he's found a sword with a +1 higher bonus on an orc captain. Something else to consider is applying the appropriate roleplaying penalty for increased resources properly. A noble who has lands and income has the responsibility of managing those lands - he can't usually just go off adventuring. If he's not the principle nobleman (i.e. not the earl or baron himself) then he's unlikely to have much control over the family wealth. He may simply get a small stipend. Also, he may be expected to do his part to help the family and work on their behalf, without expecting any reward. Historically, "gentlemen" often were in debt, often significantly, as it was socially necessary to maintain an expensive lifestyle in order to prove one's status. If you read one of the napoleonic-era novels (the Sharpe series, or Forrester's nabal books) you'll see that many noblement lived on the charity of others or the forebearance of moneylenders. I think a character who has to act the part of a wealthy nobleman, spending money obviously while desperately adventuring to keep the family finances out of bankruptcy makes quite an interesting plot hook. Add in some family debts to less than savoury lenders and things could get very interesting indeed.
rkr1970 01-29-06, 10:09 PM	Your house rule is very poorly balanced... But the idea behind it, a PC that comes from royalty, isn't too bad. The problem most people fail to take into account is that the one who would be in line to inherit such a powerful magic item, generally the first born, would also be the heir to the family title and would be forbidden to risk his life as an adventurer. Most of the younger children would be allowed to seek their fortunes in this manner, but never the heir! That being said, there is a way to do simulate a PC being the third or fourth son of a duke. Require the character to take so many ranks in certain appropriate skills at character creation in exchange for a stipend from his family, say between 50 or 1000 gp and maybe even a minor item or two, depending on who his family is. You may require Knowledge (royalty & nobility), (history), (geography), certain Craft or Profession skills and anything else that reasonably pertains to his family's position. (You might allow these initial skills to be purchased as class skills at first level only, since your average fighter wouldn't very many ranks to spend.) This simulates his having to go through the same lessons that all members of royal or wealthy families must endure. The number of ranks and the exact skills required would probably be based on the family's position in society, and the amount of cash they hand out might depend on how much faith they have in their child based on how well they learned the family business, as it were. Some examples: The son of a king might need 4 ranks in both Knowledge (royalty & nobility) & (history), 3 ranks in (geography), and 2 each in (religion) & (local) as well as a rank in no less than 3 different Perform skills, but could reasonably expect his folks to hand him 1000 gp and a couple of CLW potions to help him forge his name as something more than "Prince Harbeck, 4th in line to the throne". The same family might only give 300 gp and an everburning torch to the third son, since he obviously didn't study nearly as well, having only 2 ranks in Knowledge (royalty & nobility) and (religion) and a rank each in (local), (geography), & (history). They obviously don't expect nearly as much from this "slacker". The daughter of a wealthy merchant might have to have 4 ranks Profession (merchant) and 2 each in Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive before daddy hands over 50 gp seed money, and perhaps even his trusty old set of MW thieves' tools, so that she can make daddy proud by making her own way in the world. I wouldn't make any kind of chart or written set of rules regarding this idea, since this should be more of a gut feeling on your part, and because doing so encourages players to abuse your system. Instead, if a player has something in their background that would indicate that their family has a decent amount of ready cash, and that the PC is in good standing with said family, you could mention what kinds of skills his parents would have expected him to learn, how much study they might have expected, and how much faith his parents would need to have that he will succeed in his new profession in order for them to support his dreams of fame and fortune. The reason I would go this way is that you are "front-loading" both the cost and the benefit. Everything is paid for and received at character creation. By allowing the weapon to upgrade every level , you have all but guaranteed that the character will have access to a powerful magic item even before they might normally have earned it. BTW, you really should consider one plus/2 levels after level 1 if you do go with your system. That means that they couldn't have a +10 (max bonus) weapon until 19th level. It won't scale up too fast, this way.
Lady Maedhros 01-30-06, 11:09 AM	Well thanks for the responses, all. Some good thoughts bouncing around in here, and some valid criticisms. :doh: In your case, maybe something like this: +1 Halberd (no requirements) +2 Halberd (minimum wielder level 6) +2 undead bane halberd (wielder must use halberd to slay a greater undead creature, e.g. mummy lord, vampire, spectre, dread wraith, lich, mohrg, etc) +2 holy undead bane halberd (wielder must use halberd to slay an evil outsider with at least 10 hit dice) I like this. I've always been a fan of increased power being part of story rewards rather than just piles of loot. Something else to consider is applying the appropriate roleplaying penalty for increased resources properly. A noble who has lands and income has the responsibility of managing those lands - he can't usually just go off adventuring. If he's not the principle nobleman (i.e. not the earl or baron himself) then he's unlikely to have much control over the family wealth. He may simply get a small stipend. Also, he may be expected to do his part to help the family and work on their behalf, without expecting any reward. Certianly true. Anyone who wanted to be from a noble house who was still connected to that house in a campaign of mine would find himself embroiled in a lot of political intrigue. The problem most people fail to take into account is that the one who would be in line to inherit such a powerful magic item, generally the first born, would also be the heir to the family title and would be forbidden to risk his life as an adventurer. Most of the younger children would be allowed to seek their fortunes in this manner, but never the heir! Now this i can't totally agree with. Certianly from a real-world perspective this was generally true, but we're talking D&D. In the Hytus example, we have the son of a paladin, presumably semi-retired, living in not a castle but a small village. A paladin would certianly never value sloth and safety over courage and danger, and would never deny her son the right to put his own life on the line for Good. Hytus' father might not want him to go get himself killed, but he's not going to try to stop him. In an idealized world where a monarchy can be consistently a Good institution, there's no reason to think that the nobility wouldn't feel strongly the chivalric notion that such a powerful birthright must be earned or should only be given to one who will use it properly. Require the character to take so many ranks in certain appropriate skills at character creation in exchange for a stipend from his family, say between 50 or 1000 gp and maybe even a minor item or two, depending on who his family is. This has the same failing that feat expenditure has. Money granted can be spent, stolen, sundered, eaten by bags of devouring, melted, fail saving throws, vanish upon planar travel, and disappear in a hundred thousand ways. It can be granted in tombs, tunnels, dragon lairs, forest hideouts, castles, tithes, quest rewards, body looting, and regained in a hundred thousand ways. Skill points spent can never be recovered. Skill points spent on skills of little to no use to a character are a mechanical penalty that stays with that character for life. If those skills are made by the DM or circumstance to be of use, then the whole point of taking them has gone away, because it's no longer a tradeoff for more power in the form of money. Certianly if a player wanted to be from a noble house, i'd encourage that character to take ranks in Knowledge (Nobility), but i'd then make the usage of those ranks important to the plot as his responsibilities catch up with him and drag his party into political intrigue, see above. BTW, you really should consider one plus/2 levels after level 1 if you do go with your system. That means that they couldn't have a +10 (max bonus) weapon until 19th level. It won't scale up too fast, this way. On this one i'm thinking yeah. I like the idea that magic is just beyond the ability of the 1st level man to use, and it takes a little more of the punch out of powerful inheritance. So as it stands the rule now is: In order to benefit from a magic item, you must possess at least two character levels per +1 bonus in that item's value. In other words, a character with a +3 sword effectively has only a masterwork sword at first level, a +1 sword at 2 & 3, and only finally gains the full benefit of his weapon at level 6. Abilities such as animated that are valued as a bonus of +2 or greater cannot be "split" and you must wait until you can effectively use the whole bonus to benefit from it. If a magic item's cost is not measured in bonuses, you must have a character level equal to that item's caster level in order to use it. Which is not unreasonable, but considering that it's still kind of complicated and requires the DM to be paying more attention than usual to keep it fair anyway, if it were to come up, i'd probably just go with the tafkamhokie solution of simply regulating items on a case-by-case, quest-activated basis.
Ut-Napishtim 01-30-06, 11:21 AM	Alternatively, the noble could just take one level in the Aristocrat class, which has pretty good starting money. If I remember correctly, it has good proficiencies and a 3/4 base attack progression. They're a level behind, but they start with hundreds more gp, which makes early levels easier. This is what I do if a player wants a wealthy/noble character. Normally my games start out at ECL 3, which allows a variety of options for the players. How much extra wealth they get depends on how many levels of Aristocrat they take (representing more prestige within their relevant organization). Each level of Aristocrat adds a level of NPC gear value to their resources. For example, a Fighter 1/Aristocrat 2 gets 3rd level PC wealth/level, plus 1st level NPC gear value. A Aristocrat 3 would get 3rd level PC wealth/level, plus 3rd level NPC gear value. After initial creation it's up to the character to find their own loot, and at the lower ECL the little bit of extra wealth is easily offset by the NPC class making it fairly well balanced IME. :twocents: