Balance vs Equal Chance: [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balance vs Equal Chance: [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LCD2YOU
02-01-07, 02:32 PM Which do you choose?

Example:

I believe at 32 points everything is balanced for 1st level characters. That is Balance.

However if everyone rolled 4d6, with the same dice, dropped the lowest, in front of everyone else, etc., that has everyone having an Equal Chance.

There are more examples but I'm interested in hearing what other DMs do.

Personally, I beleive in Equal Chance.
Ace_of_Diamonds
02-01-07, 02:44 PM For something that is permanent, and can never, ever be altered, such as ability scores, I believe in balance, hence I use 28 point buy. To roll for ability scores, as an analogy, would also be somewhat akin to rolling to see how many skill points you get per level (more skilled classes getting a bigger die, i.e. a d4 for clerics and a d12 for rogues).
Andorxor
02-01-07, 02:45 PM Balance,because equal chance make all following chances unequal.
Puca
02-01-07, 02:46 PM Balance and all that doesnt factor much into my thinking.

When it comes to character creation, I like a point-buy when I already have a concept and rolling for stats when I dont.
CharlieRock
02-01-07, 02:46 PM Roll 'em! It's where the fun is. :D
pres_man
02-01-07, 02:54 PM Group concensus generally. Point buy for people that like to "build" characters with a certain concept in mind. Random rolling is nice for people that like a more "natural" feel for characters. The problem arises when people in a group can't come to a concensus.

From my experience characters that are rolled and come out exceptionly high in abilities (two 18's and the lowest is a 13 for example), tend to less interesting when played, than ones with some weaknesses. On the other hand, for point buy, characters that are min-maxed tend to more shallow than those with a more balanced approach. This probable has something to do with moderation in all things and such.
DarkNick
02-01-07, 03:01 PM One way is about being able to craft a predictable character using balance and knowing that you can face a certain power level and be on par with the other characters, the other is seeing what you get and making something out of it, being envious when someone gets a truly powerful character yet rejoicing when you get some primo rolls.

I find balance a bit mundane. I think there is a risk that it can rob some of the color out of your characters. You rarely end up with the idiot fighter, the terribly ugly cleric, the smelly gnome, the totally weak bard... It also robs the chance of having something truly unique. Of course the flip side is you can have stats that suck arse but I think it is worth the risk. Sometimes the most enjoyable characters are those that you make something of despite their weaknesses. My group will always remember the mage with 13hps at 8th level....he survived where others perished.

For me, the characters that stand out are those that came about through chance. I think if they were all 'balanced' then I don't think they would be as special because I could always create the exact same character again.

Though saying that there are times when balance is really good. Like when your fighters roll less than half for 4 levels in a row, or starting with a new group of people that don't know each other, or you have players that throw hissy fits when they are not at least as powerful as everyone else. But my personal preference is for equal chance..
Ace_of_Diamonds
02-01-07, 03:12 PM For me, also, it depends on whether the characters will be used short term or long term. For short term games, I'd be more okay with rolling, though I haven't played any short term games for years. For long term games, I'm less okay with rolling. Note that these opinions come from both my perspective as a DM and as a player. It also depends whether I will be supervising character creation or not. If I am not, I will use a point buy with no exception. But here's a summary of how I approached my annual campaigns (my group ended up starting a campaign in January or February, and the shortest one we had didn't end until September, the 2006 campaign).

1999: Standard rolling. We were all new, and didn't know any better.
2000: 25 point buy. Still semi-new, and didn't realize I could alter the points.
2001: 28 point buy. Realized I could alter the points, and gave them 3 extra.
2002: Option to roll or use 28 points. If they rolled, they were stuck with it.
2003: Option to roll or use 32 points. If their rolls were not to their liking, they could choose to point buy instead.
2004: Option to roll or use 32 points. If they rolled, they were stuck with it.
2005: 28 point buy.
2006: 28 point buy.
2007: No campaign started yet, but I intend on 28 point buy again. It seems to work best for us.

That's just for my annual campaigns with my great group of players that I always know will be successful. I've DMed for other groups, groups including my group plus some others, part of my group plus some others, or groups involving no people from my group. For them, I used so many different ability score generation methods I've lost track.
LCD2YOU
02-01-07, 03:13 PM It's not just rolls or PB for characters.

If you as DM roll that a treasure trove has item X which is best used by Class A, on the next item, do you "balance out" the find by making sure there's an item Y which is best used by Class B? Of course you have a Class A and B in the party.
Ace_of_Diamonds
02-01-07, 03:21 PM It's not just rolls or PB for characters.

If you as DM roll that a treasure trove has item X which is best used by Class A, on the next item, do you "balance out" the find by making sure there's an item Y which is best used by Class B? Of course you have a Class A and B in the party.

I will balance out treasure awards, per se. I've also lately (in the past few years) had a habit of letting them know beforehand what they'll be getting, to a certain extent. Let's say the fighter levels and wants a new sword. He'll consult a sage, and based on bribery, diplomacy, or whatever tactic the fighter and the rest of the party might use to get somethong out of him like "In the hills past the purple sea lies the abandoned keep or a hero of old. He wielded a longsword of great repute, that burned his enemies with every strike. It is rumored to be buried with him in his tomb underneath what remains of the structure." (Okay, that was a really bad example; I thought it up on the spot, but you get an idea). So the party would seek out this sword however they wanted to do so.

Also, I always tailored all the treasure. Treasure wasn't automatic, i.e. "You killed X monster! Here's your pretty sword now!" Sometimes it was hidden, and if it was an important item, it was usually one they'd heard of, learned about, and were after. So if they explored most of the place and hadn't found something yet, they had an IC reason to keep searching, i.e. Wizard: "But the wand was last heard of to be here! We've got to keep looking!"

I hope that semi-relevant post helped.
wrecan
02-01-07, 03:26 PM Balance

It's not just rolls or PB for characters.

If you as DM roll that a treasure trove has item X which is best used by Class A, on the next item, do you "balance out" the find by making sure there's an item Y which is best used by Class B? Of course you have a Class A and B in the party.

For me, treasure evens out because stuff can be sold for cash. So if the bard wants that keen rapier +1, he pays for it out of his share of the treasure. I don't like the idea that if the DM sticks in a ring of wizardry that everybody just gives it to the party wizard as a freebie.
Sereno
02-01-07, 03:26 PM I'd always go for balance.

It's not fun playing the statistically weakest PC, especially in a group that includes a couple of optimizers.

Characters that are "about" the same level of power will provide a game in which each character makes a difference, rather than everyone hiding behind one "shining star" or one guy being "left behind."

Balance is what makes it hard to have games with both optimizers and organics.
Sereno
02-01-07, 03:29 PM For me, treasure evens out because stuff can be sold for cash. So if the bard wants that keen rapier +1, he pays for it out of his share of the treasure. I don't like the idea that if the DM sticks in a ring of wizardry that everybody just gives it to the party wizard as a freebie.

I agree, treasures should be more suited to the creature that it comes from rather than the party it's going to.

Unless the creatures are stupid, or just attracted to shiny things, the "treasure" really ought to be gear that the NPC/monster actually makes use of.
pres_man
02-01-07, 03:31 PM For treasure, do I allow the chips (or dice) fall as they may or do I take a more active role in deciding?
Yes. :)

Seriously, I don't think one approach is always the best. For some big monster clutches (say a dragon's horde), random makes kind of sense since it will grab any and everything that it finds of value. On the other hand, some beings will only keep what they can use and trade/abandon/sell what they can't. Sometimes you just have to say, no more randoms, after you've had to say about the third scroll, "Again based on the condition the scroll is in, what is on it, and what it smells like, you can probably guess what the troll was using it for."
LCD2YOU
02-01-07, 03:34 PM Balance

For me, treasure evens out because stuff can be sold for cash. So if the bard wants that keen rapier +1, he pays for it out of his share of the treasure. I don't like the idea that if the DM sticks in a ring of wizardry that everybody just gives it to the party wizard as a freebie.I'm confused.

Are you into Balance or letting things roll as they may?

You say Balance at the beginning but it seems you let things roll where they may in your example. Heck, I could be reading it wrong.

As far as "rolling for random treasure" I also have it that you'll find a Ring of Wizardry on a Mage but a +3 sword on a fighting type. Still there are times when a NPC bad guy has something they can't use either......
DarkNick
02-01-07, 03:39 PM I found it hard to learn to like the idea of players buying magic items. Coming form earlier additions and other systems players usually just get what the DM provides.

I currenty compromise. If they really want something they can find a way to buy it. Depending on the power level they can buy it off the shelf or pay someone to make what they want. They just have to make the effort. So far my players have not done this (they probably are not used to the idea either).

Generally magic items all come from me. A roll some, but often just pick out items I think are appropriate (often appropriate for the foe they are fighting). I try to make it so everyone ends up with something good for their class. I like that I can control the players weaknesses in this way. Also I can equip them for future challenges. My players seem to like it - its one of the rewards of adventuring. It's like opening presents. They never know what they will get. I also think it is more heoric to find a powerful sword as part of a Dragons hord than go down to the shop and pay a mage to make it..
Anaxander
02-01-07, 03:47 PM Organical balanced equal chance...

Every player rolls three rows of stats in strict order. 4d6, drop lowest.
A player can choose any of the rows he rolled himself OR any of the rows rolled by another player (unless this player has picked the row for himself).
It is fun, mildly balanced and it often ends in hilarious bartering among players. In addition, nobody fills tricked because the had the pleasure of rolling AND the opportunity to choose.
CharlieRock
02-01-07, 03:53 PM It's not just rolls or PB for characters.

If you as DM roll that a treasure trove has item X which is best used by Class A, on the next item, do you "balance out" the find by making sure there's an item Y which is best used by Class B? Of course you have a Class A and B in the party.
Usually just roll there. The balance of the rest of the treasure evens it out mostly. If I grab the Sword of Swinging Death then I pretty much gave up all rights to any gems, artwork, or piles of coinage. By the time somebody feels left out in the magic item department they also realize they are the wealthiest PC (by the 10s of 1,000s last time this actually happened) and just buy whatever they want.
_zx75
02-01-07, 04:07 PM Equal Chance - for stat generation and most things. I personally prefer to roll for stats and my player's don't have an issue because whenever I use point buy my characters pretty much have an optimal 'cookie-cutter' set of stats that get created.

Then again, when I roll, often I'll reduce one or more of the stats voluntarily if I think it'll make a more interesting character.

Equal Chance/Balance - for treasure. I stock some treasure if I know of something that I want to be there for the players, other treasure I'll roll for to get ideas, and then modify by hand if I feel it needs tweaking.
In some cases though it just won't happen. When you have a player who decides to custom-make their own unique weaponry (that was a modification on something exotic to begin with) it isn't something that will ever show up in a treasure pile.
CharlieRock
02-01-07, 04:12 PM for treasure. I stock some treasure if I know of something that I want to be there for the players,
I call these 'keys'. They are not what I consider treasure. It's just something they would need (most likely) to get past a level. Like, a necklace of fireballs down the hall from a crypt of mummies.
Now, if they miss (or skip past) a 'key' encounter and hit the 'locked' encounter, things get fun ... :evillaugh
wrecan
02-01-07, 04:12 PM Are you into Balance or letting things roll as they may?
Balance.

I then went on to explain why I think your class-specific treasure example isn't a matter of Balance v. Rolling because I don't think class-specific treasure is unbalancing if the PC has to buy specific items out of the treasure.

As far as "rolling for random treasure" I also have it that you'll find a Ring of Wizardry on a Mage but a +3 sword on a fighting type. Still there are times when a NPC bad guy has something they can't use either......
I write the treasure for the story and try to keep the players at the appropriate wealth by level charts. I don't roll random encounters for adventures. Why should I roll random treasure?
LCD2YOU
02-01-07, 04:47 PM I don't roll random encounters for adventures.Same here but that means, if you're like me, you keep everything documented on what's where.Why should I roll random treasure?Preference:

Low level, aka, Minor Items I roll randomly as i don't want to always pick the "best item". So of course it comes out mostly as potions and stuff.

Medium powered items, unless I "built the NPC", they generally are random rolls. Now as for Major items, I pick most of them but I also roll, for randomness, for a few.

Looks like preferences again. I find that my picks seem to follow the same path so I use the dice to randomize what the encounters have.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LCD2YOU 02-01-07, 02:32 PM	Which do you choose? Example: I believe at 32 points everything is balanced for 1st level characters. That is Balance. However if everyone rolled 4d6, with the same dice, dropped the lowest, in front of everyone else, etc., that has everyone having an Equal Chance. There are more examples but I'm interested in hearing what other DMs do. Personally, I beleive in Equal Chance.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-01-07, 02:44 PM	For something that is permanent, and can never, ever be altered, such as ability scores, I believe in balance, hence I use 28 point buy. To roll for ability scores, as an analogy, would also be somewhat akin to rolling to see how many skill points you get per level (more skilled classes getting a bigger die, i.e. a d4 for clerics and a d12 for rogues).
Andorxor 02-01-07, 02:45 PM	Balance,because equal chance make all following chances unequal.
Puca 02-01-07, 02:46 PM	Balance and all that doesnt factor much into my thinking. When it comes to character creation, I like a point-buy when I already have a concept and rolling for stats when I dont.
CharlieRock 02-01-07, 02:46 PM	Roll 'em! It's where the fun is. :D
pres_man 02-01-07, 02:54 PM	Group concensus generally. Point buy for people that like to "build" characters with a certain concept in mind. Random rolling is nice for people that like a more "natural" feel for characters. The problem arises when people in a group can't come to a concensus. From my experience characters that are rolled and come out exceptionly high in abilities (two 18's and the lowest is a 13 for example), tend to less interesting when played, than ones with some weaknesses. On the other hand, for point buy, characters that are min-maxed tend to more shallow than those with a more balanced approach. This probable has something to do with moderation in all things and such.
DarkNick 02-01-07, 03:01 PM	One way is about being able to craft a predictable character using balance and knowing that you can face a certain power level and be on par with the other characters, the other is seeing what you get and making something out of it, being envious when someone gets a truly powerful character yet rejoicing when you get some primo rolls. I find balance a bit mundane. I think there is a risk that it can rob some of the color out of your characters. You rarely end up with the idiot fighter, the terribly ugly cleric, the smelly gnome, the totally weak bard... It also robs the chance of having something truly unique. Of course the flip side is you can have stats that suck arse but I think it is worth the risk. Sometimes the most enjoyable characters are those that you make something of despite their weaknesses. My group will always remember the mage with 13hps at 8th level....he survived where others perished. For me, the characters that stand out are those that came about through chance. I think if they were all 'balanced' then I don't think they would be as special because I could always create the exact same character again. Though saying that there are times when balance is really good. Like when your fighters roll less than half for 4 levels in a row, or starting with a new group of people that don't know each other, or you have players that throw hissy fits when they are not at least as powerful as everyone else. But my personal preference is for equal chance..
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-01-07, 03:12 PM	For me, also, it depends on whether the characters will be used short term or long term. For short term games, I'd be more okay with rolling, though I haven't played any short term games for years. For long term games, I'm less okay with rolling. Note that these opinions come from both my perspective as a DM and as a player. It also depends whether I will be supervising character creation or not. If I am not, I will use a point buy with no exception. But here's a summary of how I approached my annual campaigns (my group ended up starting a campaign in January or February, and the shortest one we had didn't end until September, the 2006 campaign). 1999: Standard rolling. We were all new, and didn't know any better. 2000: 25 point buy. Still semi-new, and didn't realize I could alter the points. 2001: 28 point buy. Realized I could alter the points, and gave them 3 extra. 2002: Option to roll or use 28 points. If they rolled, they were stuck with it. 2003: Option to roll or use 32 points. If their rolls were not to their liking, they could choose to point buy instead. 2004: Option to roll or use 32 points. If they rolled, they were stuck with it. 2005: 28 point buy. 2006: 28 point buy. 2007: No campaign started yet, but I intend on 28 point buy again. It seems to work best for us. That's just for my annual campaigns with my great group of players that I always know will be successful. I've DMed for other groups, groups including my group plus some others, part of my group plus some others, or groups involving no people from my group. For them, I used so many different ability score generation methods I've lost track.
LCD2YOU 02-01-07, 03:13 PM	It's not just rolls or PB for characters. If you as DM roll that a treasure trove has item X which is best used by Class A, on the next item, do you "balance out" the find by making sure there's an item Y which is best used by Class B? Of course you have a Class A and B in the party.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-01-07, 03:21 PM	It's not just rolls or PB for characters. If you as DM roll that a treasure trove has item X which is best used by Class A, on the next item, do you "balance out" the find by making sure there's an item Y which is best used by Class B? Of course you have a Class A and B in the party. I will balance out treasure awards, per se. I've also lately (in the past few years) had a habit of letting them know beforehand what they'll be getting, to a certain extent. Let's say the fighter levels and wants a new sword. He'll consult a sage, and based on bribery, diplomacy, or whatever tactic the fighter and the rest of the party might use to get somethong out of him like "In the hills past the purple sea lies the abandoned keep or a hero of old. He wielded a longsword of great repute, that burned his enemies with every strike. It is rumored to be buried with him in his tomb underneath what remains of the structure." (Okay, that was a really bad example; I thought it up on the spot, but you get an idea). So the party would seek out this sword however they wanted to do so. Also, I always tailored all the treasure. Treasure wasn't automatic, i.e. "You killed X monster! Here's your pretty sword now!" Sometimes it was hidden, and if it was an important item, it was usually one they'd heard of, learned about, and were after. So if they explored most of the place and hadn't found something yet, they had an IC reason to keep searching, i.e. Wizard: "But the wand was last heard of to be here! We've got to keep looking!" I hope that semi-relevant post helped.
wrecan 02-01-07, 03:26 PM	Balance It's not just rolls or PB for characters. If you as DM roll that a treasure trove has item X which is best used by Class A, on the next item, do you "balance out" the find by making sure there's an item Y which is best used by Class B? Of course you have a Class A and B in the party. For me, treasure evens out because stuff can be sold for cash. So if the bard wants that keen rapier +1, he pays for it out of his share of the treasure. I don't like the idea that if the DM sticks in a ring of wizardry that everybody just gives it to the party wizard as a freebie.
Sereno 02-01-07, 03:26 PM	I'd always go for balance. It's not fun playing the statistically weakest PC, especially in a group that includes a couple of optimizers. Characters that are "about" the same level of power will provide a game in which each character makes a difference, rather than everyone hiding behind one "shining star" or one guy being "left behind." Balance is what makes it hard to have games with both optimizers and organics.
Sereno 02-01-07, 03:29 PM	For me, treasure evens out because stuff can be sold for cash. So if the bard wants that keen rapier +1, he pays for it out of his share of the treasure. I don't like the idea that if the DM sticks in a ring of wizardry that everybody just gives it to the party wizard as a freebie. I agree, treasures should be more suited to the creature that it comes from rather than the party it's going to. Unless the creatures are stupid, or just attracted to shiny things, the "treasure" really ought to be gear that the NPC/monster actually makes use of.
pres_man 02-01-07, 03:31 PM	For treasure, do I allow the chips (or dice) fall as they may or do I take a more active role in deciding? Yes. :) Seriously, I don't think one approach is always the best. For some big monster clutches (say a dragon's horde), random makes kind of sense since it will grab any and everything that it finds of value. On the other hand, some beings will only keep what they can use and trade/abandon/sell what they can't. Sometimes you just have to say, no more randoms, after you've had to say about the third scroll, "Again based on the condition the scroll is in, what is on it, and what it smells like, you can probably guess what the troll was using it for."
LCD2YOU 02-01-07, 03:34 PM	Balance For me, treasure evens out because stuff can be sold for cash. So if the bard wants that keen rapier +1, he pays for it out of his share of the treasure. I don't like the idea that if the DM sticks in a ring of wizardry that everybody just gives it to the party wizard as a freebie.I'm confused. Are you into Balance or letting things roll as they may? You say Balance at the beginning but it seems you let things roll where they may in your example. Heck, I could be reading it wrong. As far as "rolling for random treasure" I also have it that you'll find a Ring of Wizardry on a Mage but a +3 sword on a fighting type. Still there are times when a NPC bad guy has something they can't use either......
DarkNick 02-01-07, 03:39 PM	I found it hard to learn to like the idea of players buying magic items. Coming form earlier additions and other systems players usually just get what the DM provides. I currenty compromise. If they really want something they can find a way to buy it. Depending on the power level they can buy it off the shelf or pay someone to make what they want. They just have to make the effort. So far my players have not done this (they probably are not used to the idea either). Generally magic items all come from me. A roll some, but often just pick out items I think are appropriate (often appropriate for the foe they are fighting). I try to make it so everyone ends up with something good for their class. I like that I can control the players weaknesses in this way. Also I can equip them for future challenges. My players seem to like it - its one of the rewards of adventuring. It's like opening presents. They never know what they will get. I also think it is more heoric to find a powerful sword as part of a Dragons hord than go down to the shop and pay a mage to make it..
Anaxander 02-01-07, 03:47 PM	Organical balanced equal chance... Every player rolls three rows of stats in strict order. 4d6, drop lowest. A player can choose any of the rows he rolled himself OR any of the rows rolled by another player (unless this player has picked the row for himself). It is fun, mildly balanced and it often ends in hilarious bartering among players. In addition, nobody fills tricked because the had the pleasure of rolling AND the opportunity to choose.
CharlieRock 02-01-07, 03:53 PM	It's not just rolls or PB for characters. If you as DM roll that a treasure trove has item X which is best used by Class A, on the next item, do you "balance out" the find by making sure there's an item Y which is best used by Class B? Of course you have a Class A and B in the party. Usually just roll there. The balance of the rest of the treasure evens it out mostly. If I grab the Sword of Swinging Death then I pretty much gave up all rights to any gems, artwork, or piles of coinage. By the time somebody feels left out in the magic item department they also realize they are the wealthiest PC (by the 10s of 1,000s last time this actually happened) and just buy whatever they want.
_zx75 02-01-07, 04:07 PM	Equal Chance - for stat generation and most things. I personally prefer to roll for stats and my player's don't have an issue because whenever I use point buy my characters pretty much have an optimal 'cookie-cutter' set of stats that get created. Then again, when I roll, often I'll reduce one or more of the stats voluntarily if I think it'll make a more interesting character. Equal Chance/Balance - for treasure. I stock some treasure if I know of something that I want to be there for the players, other treasure I'll roll for to get ideas, and then modify by hand if I feel it needs tweaking. In some cases though it just won't happen. When you have a player who decides to custom-make their own unique weaponry (that was a modification on something exotic to begin with) it isn't something that will ever show up in a treasure pile.
CharlieRock 02-01-07, 04:12 PM	for treasure. I stock some treasure if I know of something that I want to be there for the players, I call these 'keys'. They are not what I consider treasure. It's just something they would need (most likely) to get past a level. Like, a necklace of fireballs down the hall from a crypt of mummies. Now, if they miss (or skip past) a 'key' encounter and hit the 'locked' encounter, things get fun ... :evillaugh
wrecan 02-01-07, 04:12 PM	Are you into Balance or letting things roll as they may? Balance. I then went on to explain why I think your class-specific treasure example isn't a matter of Balance v. Rolling because I don't think class-specific treasure is unbalancing if the PC has to buy specific items out of the treasure. As far as "rolling for random treasure" I also have it that you'll find a Ring of Wizardry on a Mage but a +3 sword on a fighting type. Still there are times when a NPC bad guy has something they can't use either...... I write the treasure for the story and try to keep the players at the appropriate wealth by level charts. I don't roll random encounters for adventures. Why should I roll random treasure?
LCD2YOU 02-01-07, 04:47 PM	I don't roll random encounters for adventures.Same here but that means, if you're like me, you keep everything documented on what's where.Why should I roll random treasure?Preference: Low level, aka, Minor Items I roll randomly as i don't want to always pick the "best item". So of course it comes out mostly as potions and stuff. Medium powered items, unless I "built the NPC", they generally are random rolls. Now as for Major items, I pick most of them but I also roll, for randomness, for a few. Looks like preferences again. I find that my picks seem to follow the same path so I use the dice to randomize what the encounters have.