Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TelinArtho 12-16-04, 05:28 PM	I've never particularly paid attention to the "expected" money limits that WotC put in the DMG. I currently play in one campaign as a 10th level character and I DM another where I've got 2 players who are almost 12th (all the way from first), a third who started at 6th-7th (and is now 11th), a fourth who started around 8-9th (and is now 10th-11th). I've got a new player about to start who will be 10th. For this player, I used the "suggested" wealth of 49,000gp without much thought. I had a heavy hand in helping him build his character (as I said he is a new player) - so that he could remain focused on what his idea for his character is rather than try to optimize it to the best possible combination. However, in the next few days it occured to me that I didn't do this with either of the other 2 new players when they came in. For the most part, the players have received what treasure they do according to what I feel is necessary for the game - rather than the set limits that are suggested. This led me to wonder how I'm doing in the grand scheme of things. Before I start though - I realize that I don't know all of the magic items off the top of my head - so I could be missing some pretty important things here. Also, bear in mind that the players divvy things up in agreement with themselves. The New Player - 10th level, Elf Fighter 4/Rogue 6 32,500gp Frost Mighty Composite Long Bow (+1 Str) +3 2,315gp Long Sword +1 5,100gp Mithril Chain Shirt +2 2,500gp Boots of Striding and Springing 2,000gp Amulet of Natural Armor +1 2,500gp Bag of Holding Type I 1,800gp 2 Potions of Displacement 48,715gp 11th level, Human Ranger 9/Cleric 2 8,335gp Flaming Bastard Sword +1 8,310gp Shocking Short Sword +1 18,335gp Bane (evil outsiders) Bastard Sword +1 2,000gp Ring of Protection +1 16,000gp Gloves of Dexterity +4 Bow? (I believe it is a +1 bow of some +1 enhancement (so +2 overall)) Armor? (no clue - probably +1, maybe +2) 52,980gp 10-11th level, Elf 7-8th Sorcerer/3-4th Fighter 8,320gp Keen Rapier +1 5,100gp Bracers of Archery 4,000gp Bracers of Armor +2 (not on at the same time obviously) Bow? (again, it is a +1 bow of some +1 enhancement (so +2 overall)) 17,420gp ~12th level human cleric 16,650gp Plate of the Deep 4,000gp Pearl of Power (2nd Level spell) 27,500gp Manual of Clear Thought +1 (Wis) Trident? (his god's favored weapon - but I think it is only +1) Mace? (or some other bludgeon that is +2 - the only reason he keeps it around) 48,150gp ~12th level, Fighter 4/Paladin 5-6 2,650gp Full Plate +1 1,170gp Lg. Steel Shield +1 8,335gp Keen Bastard Sword +1 4,000gp Cloak of Charisma +2 ? 12,335gp So - I realize before I say anything more that I may have missed a few items here and there. However, given the balance of things so far - the paladin is severely behind the rest of the party. Its not that he's suffering because of it - but I didn't realize just how bad the balance was. What's worse is I can't think of a single other item that he has - but I can for the others - so the difference is even more dramatic. However, as I usually believe, the players are having fun - so I am not going to go to great lengths to "fixing" it. The players are very resourceful and the paladin has been getting by on just the long buffs from the cleric (magic vestment, greater magic weapon for his equipment; bull's strength for himself). So I'm not really worried about balance - which I suppose is a counterpoint to what most people are talking about when referencing their players' equipment. /d
olshanski_home 12-16-04, 05:53 PM	If your paladin had a nice +3 ring of deflection, and gloves +4 Strength, that would probably make up for the buffs that the cleric is providing... allowing the cleric to save a few spell slots and take more of an active role in combat instead of a "buffing" role. Certainly, people survive just fine... especially if your challenges are tailored to the characters, or if the characters use outstanding tactics. Balance is sometimes about "breaking" the game... making the CR system ineffective... (if you make low level characters with no magic weapons fight against a creature that has DR 10/magic... they are going to be in trouble). Sometimes, balance has a more subtle impact on the game... take the Warforged race in Eberron. One of the alleged "drawbacks" of the warforged is that it only receives 1/2 of the benefit from healing spells. If the warforged is your front line fighter, then that means a cleric has to burn twice as many healing spells to keep the fighter up... as a party, it balances out... but the cleric player is getting forced even more to play a "just the healer" while the player of the warforged really doesn't suffer... it is a drawback that gets passed on to another character.
eudas 12-16-04, 06:16 PM	if you wanted to help the paladin out, you could just have someone upgrade the enchantments on his equipment a bit as well. you could also give the elf sor/fighter a nice mithral chain shirt, too, if you wanted. eudas
deadDMwalking 12-16-04, 06:25 PM	If it ain't broke... You know that your players are having fun. The Paladin is getting by on his equipment. He doesn't really need anything more. Eventually, he should get some nicer equipment, but if he isn't being outshined by the others it means they're working well as a group. To make him more powerful will reduce the dependency they have on each other. You can do that, but why would you? They're happy. Don't worry about it too much. If they want the Paladin to have more equipment, they can give it to him out of future shares. Good luck with your game.
MortalPlague 12-16-04, 06:41 PM	If your game is going fine, then keep it how it is. Maybe give the paladin and the fighter/sorc a couple more magic items, but not from loot, rather from NPCs. Maybe the paladin's order provides him with a new blade, or an added enchantment on his existing one? Personally, I hate the wealth levels suggested in the DMG, as I think they're far too high. But that's just me.
ManinDarkness 12-16-04, 10:38 PM	You could always tailor the next treasure to fix the gap, but... I hate the wealth levels suggested in the DMG, as I think they're far too high.
H-D 12-16-04, 10:54 PM	I don't know what the avergae gold levels are in our campaign, but we all do well and have a good time. The Monk has some really cool flavor items like the clear Iuon Stone and a Ring of Sustenance (no need for food, little sleep and no need for air, pretty cool for a Monk), the Fighter has the big axe, etc. It all works out very well, even though I'm sure that some of them have more items/gold value than the others. I think it really depends (as I thinkw as said before) on how the characters depend on one another and how they are balanced in comparison to one another, rather than what the DMG says. Rock on. :cool:
R-man 12-17-04, 03:55 AM	The wealth levels in the DMG are just a guideline, you can adjust your campaign however you see fit. However if run with massively different numbers it may effect your game balance, and not necessarily in a bad way. With very experienced players you will want to adjust the wealth levels down to keep play balance. Also one of the ways to keep a larger or smaller party balanced with the CR system, which is balanced on the four person party is to keep the total party wealth balanced for the party level. i.e. if a 5th level character is supposed to have 2500gp wealth (I have no idea) then the party should have roughly 10000gp wealth divided by the number of Pc's. This will tend to reduce the advantage of large parties 6+ and help mitigate the disadvantage of very small parties 3 or less. Also the party wealth can be used to extend the playability of your campaign at high levels. Every DM has a "too much power" level that once the party reaches that point they are either not interested or unable to run effectively. By substantially lowering the wealth and with that the magic in the campaign you reduce the options and with it the power of the Pc's. :) :) :) :) :)
TelinArtho 12-17-04, 11:46 AM	Well, as I said, this was just something I was thinking of - as I wasn't sure of the level of equipment the rest of the party has in comparison to the new player. I didn't want to artificially handle things for the party - as I said they work fine together - but I don't necessarily want to change the new character either. When it comes down to it, with the exception of the new player, the rest of the party is well below the "suggested amounts" - and that is something I've done in all of my campaigns back to 1st ed. In this campaign it was a lot of fun putting the players up against devils in the early levels because they were a significant and real threat that had to be overcome because they didn't always have the weapons to take care of damage reduction. The paladin really shone through though, as he defeated an osyluth on his own with a non-magical bastard sword with the prudent use of smite and power attack and one very lucky critical. In regards to putting out items that he could use - +3 ring of protection or +4 girdle of giant strength - these are items he would likely first give to other members who could make use of them as well (even if it wasn't better use) because of his nature. His character is much more about the rest of the world being safe before he is. So the ring of protection would probably be given to the fighter/sorceress or the cleric; the girdle to the ranger/cleric or the new fighter/rogue. All in all though, I suspect it will work out. In terms of things going on in the campaign, there will be the opportunity for him to receive a holy avenger (later on - much later on). By not having other equipment it will make my job easier to hand this out to him. Its such a powerful item though that it will be a while before he does in fact get it. Back to the reason WHY I was thinking about this - man do I get distracted... The new player is the only one with a +3 weapon (actually it is a +4 with the frost). Every one else has +1 at best (with the exception of the +1 Bane v. Evil Outsiders). Many of the creatures they fight have DR 10/+1. Some have 20/+2 or 30/+3. Now, the cleric does memorize a few Greater Magic Weapon spells and they also have a variant on the Scarab of Golembane (Scarab of DevilBane - same effects just in application for devils instead of golems). The paladin on his own is capable of doing 30 damage or more - but only with smite and a significant power attack. My thought at first is that the +3 bow from the Fighter/Rogue will be able to outshine the rest - but after discussing it with others from the campaign - it just means that the new player won't be adding further spell-stress on the cleric (by needing to memorize an extra Greater Magic Weapon). All in all, I agree it does work out - and as I said - the players are very resourceful. I'm truly interested in seeing how the rest of the campaign will flow (as they've made some major errors that have slowed them down by weeks and they haven't set some people into motion who could have helped in other parts of the world...). Such will be unfolded in the coming months... Thanks all /d
Elendur 12-17-04, 12:21 PM	The mistake was allowing the new character an item worth 3/4 his entire wealth. I'd have set a cap of say 20k, to reflect that the character has been aquiring items over the course of his career, and didn't just show up at the magic store with 40k. That said, it's always better to balance it back out gradually than take stuff away. In your game, I think the humble Paladin is well deserving to have a kick ass holy sword come his way. Perhaps an intelligent one that only will work with him.
TelinArtho 12-17-04, 01:32 PM	Well, while his bow is an expensive piece - I don't look at it necessarily that it started out that way. This guy is an archer through and through - and so he has spent most of his money improving the tools of his trade - namely his bow. In game mechanics, this was an artificial method to make sure that the character had a weapon that would be effective against the main opponents of the campaign. Unlike the paladin, who can pump up his damage significantly enough to sometimes breach DR - the bowman has to have a better weapon overall to compensate. This was also a tool for me to control the amount of items the character could have. If I let him reduce it down just one level, there's going to be another 14k gp for him to spend - and while they might all be minor magic items, it does afford him much more flexibility than I wanted to give him. As I said - he's a new player - and sometimes it is better to do a bit of hand holding in the first few games. I had actually talked with the Fighter/Rogue last night and discussed the possibility of removing the frost or lowering the +3 to +2 - and he wasn't sure what to do with it. Other than improving his relatively poor AC - he really wasn't sure what direction to go. In the end, he decided to leave it as is. And ultimately, I'm fine with that as well.
TelinArtho 12-17-04, 01:37 PM	Forgot to address the major weapon for him. Actually, given that the player is looking for a bastard sword (which I am inclined to give him) - it might be better as a custom magic item anyway - and intelligence isn't out of the question. He is certainly due to have something special come his way, but at this moment, I'm not sure when I'm going to put it in place. If I don't address it before they leave town, they likely won't be among friendly people for a while. Any thoughts on the item? He is a paladin, but he's come from a family of farmers (so his methods usually have roots in agriculture...). Sheild other is an ability I think would be reasonable for it - but I'm open to ideas. /d
TelinArtho 12-17-04, 04:46 PM	So I've put some thought into a major magic weapon to give to the paladin. I haven't worked out the thematics behind it yet, and I may introduce a special purpose behind it as well - I'm not sure. In any case: Name? Bastard Sword +3 Holy; I 15 (+2) W 10 Ch 15 (+2); Ego 12; LG; Speech (common, celestial, draconic); Abilities: Shield Other (1/day, 3 hours, 35 ft range), Healing Circle (1/day, 1d8+9 healing w/in 20ft radius). Story behind the weapon? Obviously, I have plenty more to think of behind it. The shield other, I think, is the big point of the weapon (as this particular paladin strives to protect the weak from harm and to aid his allies by preventing them from receiving harm). The healing circle I'm not sold on - but it at least works with the protecting theme. I'm open to options on this area.
TelinArtho 12-17-04, 05:20 PM	Artor the Blessed Bastard Sword +3 Holy (67,835gp) I 15 (+2) W 10 Ch 15 (+2); Ego 12; Lawful Good, Speech (Common, Celestial, Draconic) Shield Other 1/day (3 hours, range up to 35 ft) Healing Circle 1/day (1d8+9 damage healed to all allies (1d8+9 damage to undead) within 20 ft) Artor was crafted in its original form 700 years ago by the smith Jondor HammerHelm deep in the Grey Peaks of the Northern Dwarven Kingdom. Jondor was both a master craftsman and a devout follower of Grantis, the dwarven god of Justice. When he finished crafting the sword of masterwork quality, he asked for help from the high priest of StoneKeep to bless it. It was at this time that Artor made his presence known. Jondor considered himself blessed to have been council from the sword which he crafted from his own toil and kept it safe at all possible means. Although he spent some of his life among the adventurous crowd, himself felling a dragon that was beseiging his lands, he retired early in life to return to his forge, and to raise a family. He intended for it to pass down through the generations in his family, but after he was left without a son or daughter, his name was not continued. He donated it to the High Priest who had enchanted it, a dwarf by the name of Dunbar GoodStone, and it was kept safe through the rest of his natural life. Amazingly, Artor stayed undiscovered for another 100 years, until recently. Two months ago, a young, impetuous dwarf found the sword laying among the discarded remnants of an abandoned church. Grantis's followers had moved on to a bigger church, closer to the king's footsteps, but had left behind this one sword. Ragmund SteelThrone took the sword up and held it safe for several weeks. The sword controlled him, but only so that it would not fall into the wrong hands - as it could feel the powers of good waning in the present world. Artor waited for those weeks, knowing that someone would come along and bear it to arms against the evil that would show itself. Its purpose as protector and healer would be finally earned. Artor could also be called compassionate of the weak, healer of the wounded and the blessed. Artor prefers to be simply called "Artor," as he does not prefer to be exalted with surnames and epithets. Above all, Artor desires to lead people to goodness and to keep lawfulness. Any indiscretions on the part of the wielder will be met with the sword's will. Although it will never willingly harm a lawful and good being, the sword will strike down evil without compunction and chaos when it behaves in such a way as to disrupt law. Artor prefers to speak in celestial when given the opportunity, and any wielder would benefit from learning the language just to make the connection between them stronger. When celestial is not an option, Artor will use common and then draconic as a last resort.
Ualaa 12-17-04, 05:55 PM	The CR system is designed around a group of 4 characters, who between them cover the roles of Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric. It assumes an average amount of wealth for the characters. It assumes no character has more then 50% of their wealth into a single item. If your game is going good, there is no reason for change. At the same time, you will have to continue to tailor your encounters to the abilities of your group. If you just assume the party is 5th level and a CR 5 bad guy will use 20% of their resources, the wealth deficient party might not fare too well, unless you fudge rolls in their favor. It is your game, and as long as you and your players are all enjoying yourselves, that is what counts.
eRaz0r 12-17-04, 06:48 PM	Sometimes, balance has a more subtle impact on the game... take the Warforged race in Eberron. One of the alleged "drawbacks" of the warforged is that it only receives 1/2 of the benefit from healing spells. If the warforged is your front line fighter, then that means a cleric has to burn twice as many healing spells to keep the fighter up... as a party, it balances out... but the cleric player is getting forced even more to play a "just the healer" while the player of the warforged really doesn't suffer... it is a drawback that gets passed on to another character. Well that's not necessarily the case. I know this is off topic, but the Repair spells (cure spells for Constructs) are almost as readily available as Healing spells. Healing spells are only available to Clerics, Druids, and to a lesser extend Bards (and artificers if they're willing to make them into items). The Repairs spells are on the Arcane casters list and are available as Infusions to Artificers. IIRC, they're also part of the Artifice Domain for Clerics (but I could easily be wrong about that). So a party with a Cleric, Warforged Tank, Rogue and Arcane caster, the cleric can buff and the Arcane caster can be the healer for the tank. The Cleric then becomes emergency healer if the enemy gets past the tank. If one of the caster roles is an Artificer instead, then he becomes the primary healer for the tank. It's a disadvantage, but not one that can't be easily circumvented by a clever party.