Balancing a gestalted party [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing a gestalted party [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
aikimiller
01-28-08, 10:55 AM Hey everyone,

I just started DMing a gestalt game, homebrew world using Sandstorm, completes and races, spell compendium, PHB2, no TOB, current lvl5.

The party consists of a Duskblade/wizard, a Scout/Warlock, a Scout/Swashbucker3-Fighter2 planning for dervish, a Bard/Fighter, and a Cleric/ranger3-Fighter2 going for ashwurm dragoon.

The problem I'm having is that the duskblade has figured out some swift-action spell that basicly keens his weapon, which is a great falchion. He then uses his standard action to deliver shocking grasp or vampiric touch- which if he crits deals in the neighborhood of 50-75 damage. On top of this he has the conjuration specialist immediate teleport from PHB2, which he has argued for flat-footedness for.

Any ideas on how to deal with this other than throwing undead or constructs at them? The rest of the party is a little useless compared to this character. They're not complaining, but it just annoys me slightly (the player is a little arrogant, not to mention he's described his alignment as chaotic bat-sh** insane. Not a problem yet and I see that it might get a little bit tedius if I can't rein it in some).
Mistress_Alexis
01-28-08, 11:08 AM Allowing Gestalt is a mistake because it leads to things like this. One smart players will always end up out preforming the rest of the party. Balancing would have been easier allowing ToB classess in the same party as the classes they replace (Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage / Fighter, Paladin, Duskblade)

Now the Keen Great Falchion, nearly every melee character I've DMed since Standstorm came out has used that combo. The best way to deal with it is sending flying opponents or sundering opponents ageinst them.

Before anyone else who isnt familiar with the Duskblade jumps in, yes they can use touch attacks through their weapons and since it requires an attack roll it does crit.

(the player is a little arrogant, not to mention he's described his alignment as chaotic bat-sh** insane...)

I would tell him to not RP his character like that. A B.S. Insane person could not maintain the dicipline nessisary to be a Duskblade let alone Wizard/Duskblade, I know it isnt in the rules but if you read the flavor text it makes it extremely clear.
CaptainPicard
01-28-08, 01:24 PM OK, a couple of things from my (unfortunately usually failed) attempts at running gestalt games.

1) PrCs that combine multiple classes such as Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge are banned in gestalt. Therefore, it follows that a class such as Duskblade should also be excluded, as if the player wants to do this, he can create a Fighter/Wizard.

2) While this wasn't specifically brought up, do not allow combinations of multiple alternate systems in gestalt. I had a Duskblade//Incarnate in my first game who realized that the Incarnate's abilities did not require any actions to use and were unbelievably powerful on a character with full BAB. In the next game, a Rogue//Swordsage dominated every encounter thrown at him with Shadow Hand maneuvers coupled with sneak attack. I would allow a Warblade//Swordsage or an Incarnate//Totemist, but not these combos. And don't allow Binders at all; you don't even want to know what happened there.

3) Gestalt is not a game system. It is a suggestion of an alternate way to play the game with a few vague rules spread over about half a page. If you're going to do it, there needs to be an agreement amongst the players that you are using an unbalanced system that can easily be broken by abusive characters, such as the Duskblade you mentioned. And this does work; other game systems such as BESM are based entirely on this kind of agreement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aikimiller 01-28-08, 10:55 AM	Hey everyone, I just started DMing a gestalt game, homebrew world using Sandstorm, completes and races, spell compendium, PHB2, no TOB, current lvl5. The party consists of a Duskblade/wizard, a Scout/Warlock, a Scout/Swashbucker3-Fighter2 planning for dervish, a Bard/Fighter, and a Cleric/ranger3-Fighter2 going for ashwurm dragoon. The problem I'm having is that the duskblade has figured out some swift-action spell that basicly keens his weapon, which is a great falchion. He then uses his standard action to deliver shocking grasp or vampiric touch- which if he crits deals in the neighborhood of 50-75 damage. On top of this he has the conjuration specialist immediate teleport from PHB2, which he has argued for flat-footedness for. Any ideas on how to deal with this other than throwing undead or constructs at them? The rest of the party is a little useless compared to this character. They're not complaining, but it just annoys me slightly (the player is a little arrogant, not to mention he's described his alignment as chaotic bat-sh** insane. Not a problem yet and I see that it might get a little bit tedius if I can't rein it in some).
Mistress_Alexis 01-28-08, 11:08 AM	Allowing Gestalt is a mistake because it leads to things like this. One smart players will always end up out preforming the rest of the party. Balancing would have been easier allowing ToB classess in the same party as the classes they replace (Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage / Fighter, Paladin, Duskblade) Now the Keen Great Falchion, nearly every melee character I've DMed since Standstorm came out has used that combo. The best way to deal with it is sending flying opponents or sundering opponents ageinst them. Before anyone else who isnt familiar with the Duskblade jumps in, yes they can use touch attacks through their weapons and since it requires an attack roll it does crit. (the player is a little arrogant, not to mention he's described his alignment as chaotic bat-sh** insane...) I would tell him to not RP his character like that. A B.S. Insane person could not maintain the dicipline nessisary to be a Duskblade let alone Wizard/Duskblade, I know it isnt in the rules but if you read the flavor text it makes it extremely clear.
CaptainPicard 01-28-08, 01:24 PM	OK, a couple of things from my (unfortunately usually failed) attempts at running gestalt games. 1) PrCs that combine multiple classes such as Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge are banned in gestalt. Therefore, it follows that a class such as Duskblade should also be excluded, as if the player wants to do this, he can create a Fighter/Wizard. 2) While this wasn't specifically brought up, do not allow combinations of multiple alternate systems in gestalt. I had a Duskblade//Incarnate in my first game who realized that the Incarnate's abilities did not require any actions to use and were unbelievably powerful on a character with full BAB. In the next game, a Rogue//Swordsage dominated every encounter thrown at him with Shadow Hand maneuvers coupled with sneak attack. I would allow a Warblade//Swordsage or an Incarnate//Totemist, but not these combos. And don't allow Binders at all; you don't even want to know what happened there. 3) Gestalt is not a game system. It is a suggestion of an alternate way to play the game with a few vague rules spread over about half a page. If you're going to do it, there needs to be an agreement amongst the players that you are using an unbalanced system that can easily be broken by abusive characters, such as the Duskblade you mentioned. And this does work; other game systems such as BESM are based entirely on this kind of agreement.