Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arthur_Pendragon 02-17-07, 01:02 AM	I've heard this has been hashed over in the past by others, but I can't seem to find where, so I set about doing this myself. I'm working on a planar campaign, and want to use a balanced Succubus Monster class, converted from 3.0 to 3.5 with some minor changes. Before I engage in that, I should first clairify my group situation. If you have no desire to understand this, I've conviently placed it in a block section for you to skip it if you wish. Despite living in a college town, I've never had much luck with getting new players (often when I try they either have their own groups already, or I make the mistake of picking up players that later . . . unsettle me, to put in nicely. Like the time I got the guy that had vast numbers of body peircings and explained he occasionally had psychotic episodes). I use to have a nice group of friends back when I was in undergrad, but as I've gone back to Master's work, and married, my old friends have moved on. So now, it is basically just myself and my wife playing D&D together. She enjoys the game a great deal, but doesn't care for solo-gaming. As for myself, in nearly the entire time I've played D&D I've been a DM. Often this is because no one else wants to DM or there is simply no one around to DM. Additionally, when I once did have a guest DM (the above mentioned well peirced guy) and he made up results to a situation, and in other cases ignored the rules in mid-combat. Afterwards when I contronted him about it he complained I was keeping too much to the rules, and should remember the DM can do what he wants rule. :( So, as both my wife dislikes solo-games, and honestly I like an oppourtunity to play myself, even as I DM. I effectively run what most would call (I think) a DMPC. I've had a long break from the game for a while now due to work demands, and lack of being engaged in a character. As I began work on the planar setting, I became excited about playing a succubus character in my 3.5 game. It gives me a chance to something fun for myself and DM at the same time. However, as a DM, I'm very concerned with balance, especially to be fair to my wife (my other player) so as to not have an overly powerful character (something I wish to avoid). This is where I need help. So here is my attempt to make a useable succubus class in 3.5 with modifications. The following differences are: That there is no summoning ability (I dropped it simply because I didn't want to mess with it). I use "Alternate Form" instead of the polymorph spell-like ability because I keep getting confused with all the errata on such spells, so to keep it simple, in this case "Alternate Form" ability basically means, the succubus changes appearance and/or gender among the options of the standard races they would tempt (standard medium to small sized player races). No stat changes occur (I just keep using what is written on the character sheet), however flight and claw attacks are not usable in alternate form as said forms lack claws or wings. No other particular abilities are gained or lost. Level drain abilities and spell-like abilties remain while in alternate form. At first Alternate forms are limited to a few pre-set selected forms (ie: a specific red head elf, or blonde human, etc.) chosen by player, and eventually the restriction to a limited number of forms is dropped. I give the full Intellegence bonus at the begining of the class because otherwise the skill distribution is all wacked (in relation to the 3.5 succbus in the monster manual) because skill points aren't gained retroactively like hitpoints are with Con increase. All spell-like abilities use DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha Mod instead of the figures in the Monster Manual (as those numbers are off a bit), again for simplicity throughout. Level Drain ability is something I'm sorting out. In the rules as written, you can ONLY level drain with a kiss or embrace, or a grapple. As succubi have lesser HP, and relatively lower str on average I don't see it as logical to attempt a grapple in mid-melee with the risk of enemy allies assualting you while you grapple. :( Hence, as written, you can't just attack with your claws and level drain (as vampires can for example). So your much more limited. I'm struggling as to whether or not to remove the kiss restriction, and allow it to both be used as a melee attack, and a kiss effect (suggestion effect only kicks in during a kiss regardless, and only then when it is gained in the succubus class). Resistances are to Cold, Fire, and Acid. Minor powers are: Detect Good, and Detect Thoughts Lesser Powers are: Charm Monster, Suggestion Greater powers are: Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport (Self-only and 50lbs. of equipment). At start you have Proficency in all simple and martial weapons. Skills at 8+Intellegence Mod (and x4 at first level) Class skills are: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot Base Attack Bonus increase as fighter BAB, when actual HD is gained, similarly saves increase, all saves are good (no poor save) as per Outsiders. Spell resistence is gained at a rate of 12 + 1/HD (so in only increase when actual HD increase happens). Similarly, the natural armor bonus is 3 + 1/HD (so +4 at first level, and +9 by the end). Feats are marked at the appropriate HD, there is a +6 Level Adjustment, as per the 3.5 Monster Manual. Everyone is starting at 4th level. Level 1 - 1d8 +2 Cha, +6 Int Immunity to Electricity and Poison, Alternate Form (1), 2 claws (1d6 damage), Tongues Ability, Darkvision 60ft, Outsider (Chaotic, Evil), +8 racial bonus to Spot and Listen, +10 Circ. Bonus to Disguise when using Alternate Form, Feat Level 2 - 2d8 +2 Cha Minor Powers 1/day Level 3 - 3d8 +2 Cha Resistances 5, Minor Powers 3/day, Alternate Form (3) Level 4 - No HD +2 Cha Telepathy 100ft., Minor Powers at will, Lesser Powers 1/day Level 5 - No HD +2 Wis Alternate Form (Unlimited), Lesser Powers 3/day, Fly 50ft. (Average) Level 6 - 4d8 +2 Cha, +2 Dex Resistances 10, Lesser Powers at will, Greater powers 1/day Level 7 - No HD +2 Wis Greater Powers 3/day, Energy Drain 1/day Level 8 - No HD +2 Cha Greater Powers 5/day, DR 5/Cold Iron or Good Level 9 - 5d8 +2 Con Greater Powers at Will, Energy Drain 3/day Level 10 - No HD +2 Cha Energy Drain 5/day Level 11 - 6d8 +2 Cha Energy Drain at Will, Feat Level 12 - No HD +2 Str Energy Drain at will (with Suggestion power), DR 10/Cold Iron or Good
Arthur_Pendragon 02-17-07, 01:10 AM	Additionally, as a player and DM, I decided I'm not really interested in pursuing a class after reaching the last level of the succubus class. I toyed with playing a socrerer (with such a high charisma and all), but it really didn't interest me that much. I realize I really just wanted to continue the who succubus concept. So after I get some feedback on the class so far, I was toying with posting up an extension of it, that continues to gain Outsider HD (but no stat increases, except those usually granted by HD increases, just as feats are) along with some abilties that advance the concept of the succubus. Perhaps something like a Mass Charm Monster at higher levels and other abilties that create a sense of an advanced Succubus. But I'll deal with that after I've gotten feed back on what I have so far.
Arthur_Pendragon 02-17-07, 12:27 PM	Also are there any questions or things that need to be clairified?
Arthur_Pendragon 02-17-07, 08:42 PM	Huh, so I guess from the general lack of response nobody finds this particuarly uber then?
MichaelSomething 02-17-07, 09:47 PM	Well generally it takes a few days to get replys. As for your question, you could look in the Monster Manual section under advancing monsters for info on advancing monsters past their normal hit die. There is also a book specially written for this situation. I forget what its called though...
Arthur_Pendragon 02-18-07, 12:36 AM	Well generally it takes a few days to get replys. Really? Huh, I didn't know that. (Seriously) I usually post stuff on the mature boards, but as this board seemed to push posts down to the second page faster, I figured it must likewise have more regular responses than, say the slower mature boards I usually post on. Thanks for the info. I'll wait patiently. Though should I worry about bumping? Or do people regularly check the 2nd or 3rd pages on these boards? As for your question, you could look in the Monster Manual section under advancing monsters for info on advancing monsters past their normal hit die. I'm familiar with that part though (though thanks for bringing it up), I know how to continue an advancement of HD (its just like a normal class in a lot of ways, just increase HD, BAB, saves, (in my case SR too) accordingly, etc.) What I'm more interested in is what specially abilities to add at higher levels (just to give something more interesting to look foward too, and also to represent a more advance above average succubus (assuming what you see in the MM is an average succubus). There is also a book specially written for this situation. I forget what its called though... Your not thinking of "Savage Species" are you? That's where I started from to some degree, but the problem is, is that it was written in 3.0, and 3.5 has made some big changes to both a number of monster abilties (DR for one) and altered a number of monsters (the succubus lost some spells, etc.) So I feel I really need to try to adjust accordingly as best I can, as Wizards hasn't (to my knowledge) produced an updated version for 3.5. Thanks for replying. I'm interested in what everyone has to say.
Evil Succubus Evaligan 02-21-07, 04:15 PM	It's your first time using a succubus?:rolleyes: I see that you have little "problems" because you don't know how use your energy drain kiss ability. First... you always be in shape change/alternate form/polymorph. Never show your true form. Two. Always use charm monster and suggestion spell-like abilities in all... ally or foe. You always need use detect thoughts in all for know if someone want kill you. Tree. With etereal jaunt you can use your possession ability and take a body. Why? If someone attacks you, they don't harm you. They need first know that you are a fiend possessor. Four. Your energy drains is easy to use. Only use charm monster and suggestion in your victim. Vampires need use brute force in their energy drain but the succubi not. So you don't need fight with you victim... only draing levels with your lips. Attack with claws? Never do that. If someone are protected by circle against evil or similar spells... use greater teleport and wait. You can meet later with your enemy. Remeber... they only have these spell with a limit of use per day... but you have spell-like abilities at will. Try to take a leadership feat. With that you can attract some followers and cohort. After you finish your succubus monster class... Try to find or create some prestige class that use many Charisma. Dark Blessing, some ablity that add your Charisma to you Armor Class, undetectable align, and others supernaltural or special abilities of other class for improve your succubus. You don't need use the normal character prestige class. Succubus characters are ver good. I really like more than standard races.
Arthur_Pendragon 02-21-07, 04:43 PM	Thank you for your reply, Evil Succubus Evaligan, and I'll keep in mind your comments about the kiss ability and how to put it too good use. Do you think the class as written is balanced? Not too powerful, nor too weak? Do you have any suggestion about how to play such a character to make best use of his/her abilities? Or suggestions about ways in which to corrupt others? Any suggested powers (and more specifically) where they should go at what level if I'm extending the succubus to higher levels. Dark blessing may make sense in terms of power, but I wasn't so sure how it fit in with the overarching feel the succubus, as you said they tend to avoid combat. I'll definately keep the leadership feat in mind, for reference I had also pondered the Improved Level Drain feat (its in Libris Mortis, but there is no reason a succubus can't take it). Said feat gives more benefits per level drained from someone. I was thinking about some sort of mass charm monster spell-like ability at higher levels, but I'm unsure at what level it should be available. Any suggestions there? What about Mass Suggestion spell-like ability at will and at what level should it be gained?
Evil Succubus Evaligan 03-23-07, 04:17 PM	Some feats for you succubus... ABILITY FOCUS [GENERAL] (From Savage Species) Choose one of the creature's special attacks. Prerequisite: Special attack. Benefit: Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses. Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time the creature takes the feat it applies to a different special attack. BOOST SPELL-LIKE ABILITY [GENERAL] (From Vile of Darkness) One of the creatures spell-like abilities is harder to resist than it otherwise would be. Benefit: The saving throws Difficult Class (DC) of a boosted spell-like ability is increase by +2. Each of a creature's spell-like abilities can be boosted three times per day, though the feat does not allow the creature to exceed its normal usage limit for any ability. Thus if a succubus chooses to boost its suggestion ability, it can use boosted suggestion up to three times that day. Thereafter, it could use its suggestion ability again normally (since it can use suggestion at will), or it could boost another of its spell-like abilities, such as charm monster. Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each tome it is take, the creature can apply it to each of its spell-like abilities three additional times per day. (If you have boost spell-like ability and ability focus you have +4 in that spell-like ability) better DC. SUPERNATURAL TRANSFORMATION [GENERAL] (From Savage Species) You covert a spell-like ability to a supernatural ability. Prerequisites: Innate spell-like ability. Benefit: One of you innate spell-like ability becomes a supernatural ability. It is no longer subject to spell resistance, though it can still be supresed in an antimagic field. Using this ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The numer of uses if limited, does not change. The effective caster level is equal to you total Hit Dice or the effective caster level of the original ability, whichever is higher. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do no stack. Each time you take it, it applies to a new spell-like ability. IMPROVED ENERGY DRAIN [MONSTROUS] (From Libris Mortis) You draw extra power from you energy-drained victims. Prerequisites: Cha 15, energy drain supernatural ability. Benefit: Whenever you bestow a negative level upon a creature, you gain a +1 bonus on skills checks, ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws for 1 hour. (Only use this feat is the creature has low Hit Dice) LIFE DRAIN [MONSTROUS] (From Libris Mortis) You drain additional life energy from you foes. Prerequisites: Cha 13, energy drain supernatural ability. Benefit: Whenever you bestow a negative level upon a creature add your Charisma modifier to the hit points lost by the creature due to that negative level, You then gain temporaly hit poits equal to the amount lost by the creature due to the negative level. These temporaly hit points last for up to 1 hour. Special: Without this feat, a target loses 5 hit points each time it gain a negative level, and the creature delivering the negative level gain 5 temporary hit points that last for up to 1 hour. DAUTING PRESENCE [MONSTROUS] (From Libris Mortis) You are skilled at indicing fear in your opponents. Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +1. Benefit: You may take a standard action to awe an opponent. The opponent must be within 30 feet, have line of sight to you, and have an Intelligence socre. If the opponent fails a Will saving throw (DC 10 +1/2 you character level + you Cha modifier), it is shaken for 10 minutes. This feat has not effect on a creature that is already shaken. Special: A figher may select Dauting Presence as one of his fighter bonus feats. They aren't official but... if you DM say that you can use... (If you are suicide...) FINAL DEMON STRIKE [DEMONIC] Your death throes are destructive. Prerequisites: Outsider with evil subtype, Cha 16+. Benefit: When you are defeated (that is, when your hit point drop to -10 or lower), your body explodes in a final demon strike wave of crackling energy flashes outward in a 60 foor radious. All nondemons within the radius take 2d6 point of damage per Hit Die, up to maximum 20d6 half Reflex (DC 10 + 1/2 demon's Hit Dice + demon's Cha modifier). Special: Only true resurrection, miracle, or wish spells can restore life. LONG-RANGE TELEPATHY [GENERAL] Your telepathic powers can reach greater distances. Prerequisites: Telepathy ability granted by psionic power, spell-like or supernatural abilities. Benefit: The range of the creature's telepathic powers is doubled. Special: Characters with a mind link to a familiar, special mount or animal companion benefit from this feat by having their link with their companion tripled, but only works between the character and his companion. PLANAR TELEPATHY [GENERAL] Your telepathic powers extend beyond the planar barriers. Prerequisites: Charisma +18, Knowledge (the plannes) 8 ranks, telepathy ability grnted by psionic powers, spell-like or supernatural abilities. Benefit: The creature's telepathic powers can reach targets on another plane in the case of adjacent planes. The creature can key its telepathic ability on one target per Intelligence or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher) previous the target's departure from the plane where they are. The creature can maintain telepathic contact with those targets regardless of which plane they plane they travel to. Any effect that dispels, disrupts or block magic will sever the bond, which cannot be reforged unless the character and the target are again in the same plane. Special: Characters with a mind link to a familiar, special mount or animal companion benefit from this feat by having their link remain even if they are separated in different planes, but it only works between the character and his companion. TRASPASSER [DEMONIC] The demon scoffs at magical protections. Prerequisites: Charima +19. Benefit: The demon gain extra Will saving throw against spells or effect that keep it from moving inside or outside an area or interacting with a protecte creature. Even if the demon is not allowed a saving throw against the effect, it can make one by means of this feat against the DC the spell would have if it allowed the demon to save. Such effects include, but are not limited to protection from evil and magic circle against evil. (If you succubus focused more in fight than in charms...) IMPROVED SUMMONING [DEMONIC] The demon's calls are stronger in other demon's ears. Prerequisites: Summon demon ability. Benefit: The demon's chance of success for his summon ability increases by +15%. This works for all groups of demons it can summon. FAVOUR [DEMONIC] The demon has previously answered other demon's summoning ability and therefore has many favours to cash in. Prerequisites: Must appear in a demon's summon demon ability description. Benefit: The demon can summon the double number of creatures he rolls. Special: This feat does not increase the chance of the demon arriving, only their numbers, which must all belong to the same species as was called. EXTRA SUMMONS [DEMONIC] The demon may call for more reinforcements. Prerequisites: Summon demon ability, Favour. Benefit: The demon can use its summon ability an extra time per day. EXTENDED SUMMONING [DEMONIC] A demon's allies can remain in the etheral plane or material plane for an extended period. Prerequisites: Summon demon ability, Improved Summoning, Favour. Benefit: Other demons that the creature summons with his ability can remain for an extra hour. Special: Demons that arrive througth the call of a demon with this feat may use their own summon ability after one hour has passed. EXPERT SUMMONER [DEMONIC] The demon know how to call other demons apart from the those he normally calls. Prerequisites: Summon demon ability, Favour. Benefit: The demon chooses another race of demons whose CR does not exceed its own. The demon can now summon 1d4 members of that new race with a 35% chance of success. Fiend of Corruption, Fiend of Possession and Soul Eater are good for a succubus. But I prefer more a prestige class that focused more in Charisma and charms.
DeWayne 03-24-07, 11:41 PM	Do you think the class as written is balanced? Not too powerful, nor too weak? <snip> Or suggestions about ways in which to corrupt others? Personally I think the class is fairly well balanced as written. I've been playing an incubus in the Eberron setting and it seems more or less on par with the other characters. The lack of feats has been annoying, but it hasn't really hurt the character. A method for corrupting others: Start with joking about which of the seven deadly sins each of the characters would be. Then encourage the other characters to 'live up' to their chosen sin. I was amazed how well it worked. It became so central to the characters that one of the other players went out & bought us some of those little plastic bracelets with the names of the sins on them (Lust for me, Greed for the woman playing our cleric, Vanity for the woman playing the druid, Pride for the guy playing the wizard...)
Someone 03-25-07, 01:18 AM	A couple of points: I think it would be better if the HD were spread more evenly- every other level, rather than clumped. The spell-like DCs are based on 10 +spell level +Cha. Hence Charm Monster, a 4th level spell is a DC 22, and Suggestion, a 3rd level spell, is a DC 21. There was an errata that did something similar to what you did- replacing a succubi's polymorph with a "change shape" ability, which is pretty similar to the alternate form ability, only more flexible (you are allowed a small range of forms, not just one). I forget where you could find it, though... The all Int to start is an okay fix, but it might be better to just give more skill points, while having Int go up with levels only for the purpose of modifiers. That is, you always get 11 skills per HD, but anything else Int-based wouldn't benefit until later. As for advancement- definitely go by character class- extra outsider HD would be good for a fighting type, but sorcerer or bard are a succubi's calling.