Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aryxbez 06-11-07, 12:27 AM	I have always heard that the high levels become very unbalancing, with creatures that have too low or too high CRs. That the Spellcasters rule the game, warriors become lame, and any other things I can't think to mention. This all sounds true, and I do believe this is for fact as well. However what is to be done to balance it out? What have you done to balance it out? Tell me why? Also if it depends on campaign, tell me of any situation/campaign that these would apply. I post this because I have never actually got an answer to this subject, so surely you will be able to answer this for me?
Kaldric 06-11-07, 12:54 AM	I don't have a problem with high-level play. I play a 4 hour per week game, doing probably an average of 3 encounters per week. Takes more than a year and a half to get to level 20. And in my games I don't baby the players, so it usually takes longer due to having to make up lost levels from raise dead, resurrection, level-draining creatures, etc.
Aryxbez 06-11-07, 02:25 AM	This however does not really help to actually answer the question. So then how do you keep it perfect?
OneWinged4ngel 06-11-07, 06:13 AM	This however does not really help to actually answer the question. So then how do you keep it perfect? Perfect balance is IMPOSSIBLE in a game as complex as D&D. However... This is my response to another recent post... but I think it's relevant here. Sorry I'm too lazy to post in more detail at the moment. It's a no-brainer change in the right direction, but it by no means solves the myriad problems in core balance. Anyways, it's a big subject, and I could go on forever and ever, but I'll try to sum up some basic concepts. If you want more advice, I have more to give, so feel free to ask questions :) To get a few ideas... 1) Problematic Spells: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=86768 This useful thread points out some problematic spells, and suggestions on how to adjust them. 2) Problematic Powers: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=657631 Same as for 1, but it's for psionics. I know it's not core, but psionics is a great system and it's something you should consider looking into. While you're at it, learning the Tome of Battle system would also more than likely be beneficial. 3) My house rules (might give a few ideas): http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690601 4) The obvious stuff to ban: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=587555 Basically, anything here is scary even for optimizers. Banning this cheese should be a no-brainer. Heck, if you let a PC get any of this past you, you're probably not very good in the capacity of DM as referee. Anything on this list should immediately jump out as broken. 5) Classes worth looking at, in no particular order: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=310984 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=738077 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=506284 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728493 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=752414 6) Estimated power level of classes by rough category (by no means absolute, but it's close to the general consensus on various threads on the issue): Top tier: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Artificer (Most early generation full spellcasting) Middle Tier: Beguiler, Duskblade, Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, Warmage, Rogue, Bard, Sorceror, Psychic Warrior, Psion, Warlock Low Tier: Soulknife, Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Samurai, Hexblade (Most early generation melee) 7) Many of the low tier classes are there because they lack versatility and power. Versatility in play is probably the more important of the issues, as it makes a class less fun to play. "I trip again" or "I hit him with my sword again" typically isn't as cool as, say, playing a swordsage and pulling off a maneuver combo, or a spellcaster pulling off a series of spells that make reality his ***** in 20 different ways at once. A few general comments: -The Fighter is limited by the nature of feats as compared to real class abilities. Specialization is rewarded with Fighters, so you're unlikely to get much versatility out of them (in game, as opposed to in build). So they're often found doing "charge charge charge" or "trip trip trip" or "attack attack attack." Additionally they contribute next to nothing outside of battle... so at the very least could stand to have a few skill points or utilitarian skills. The Warblade actually can make a good replacement for the Fighter. Anyways, there's a lot to talk about on this subject, but Tony does a fairly good summation here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10758100&postcount=23 -The Paladin is very nova based, and many of his spells are irrelevant at the level he gets them, with a few obvious "Best" choices (Compare healing 2d8 + 10 hp with a 3rd level paladin spell vs gaining 25 temporary hp for an hour and +4 strength with Righteous Fury. The choice should be obvious). Basically, a paladin can whoop out his abilities for one encounter or two (laying out all his smites at once, using his limited buffs, and maybe his single Lay on Hands "charge" which won't fully heal a tank with the whole pool and is only really useful for saving a few CLW wand charges and novaing some poor undead sap with no save). Essentially, the paladin needs some more staying power, and could use some addition options. I would personally recommend my Rebalanced Paladin, not only because it's mine, but because it comes very highly acclaimed. ^^ -The full spellcasters have access to an extremely powerful system, and some spells are obviously better than others (Silent Image vs Erase. Seriously? Darkness vs Web. You kidding me?). They can pull off extremely potent combos and prepare for just about any situation. 8) Casting PrCs and Sorcerors: Don't fall into the trap that Sorcerors are underpowered. They have limitations, and are inferior to the Wizard, but they are still full arcane casters with an unrestricted spell list. That is not to say that sorcerors are without problems: They could use more skill points (Even with 4+int they'll average significantly less skill points than a wizard, due to the stat focus), as well as more class skills (Seriously, they have the smallest list in the game. Consider adding charisma-skills, at the very least). They could also use some more flavorful goodies, such as signature cantrips or at least eschew materials to play up that "natural caster" element. Additionally, they have no incentive to PrC... however, this brings me to another point: in this case, the "+1 spellcasting level" paradigm for PrCs is broken, particularly when it goes for the entire progression. Essentially, spellcasting IS a sorceror/wizard/cleric's class features, and heck, it's a really big array of class features. Additionally, nothing stops you from taking 1 level dip in a Cleric before taking a Paladin PrC to get significantly better casting abilities out of it (for example). Full spellcasting progression PrCs with many other abilities are unbalanced by general principle, and the general system of +1 spellcasting level is just flawed in general. It might as well say "+1 level of class features" for many full spellcasters! 9) LA is broken. Really. Something needs to be done about it. 10) How to go about it (IMO): The main thing to be feared is not classes in and of themselves, but certain spells and abilities. For example, there's nothing scary about Fireball, but it's a different ballgame when we start talking about Celerity or the dragonslaying Shivering Touch. A good place to start balancing the game would be to curb the obviously powerful *abilities* of powerful classes, and boosting up the weaker ones some. Many of the weaker classes have much more trouble at *higher* levels than lower ones. At low levels, melee classes aren't so bad because having a martial weapon proficiency and a decent hit die is good enough to make you contribute at low level, where a whack from a greatsword is effectively a save or die =P Basically... curb some problematic feats, items, and spells, and boost up the underpowered classes to a more favorable level so that they can be competitive at any level. ___ So... good luck with that :) :king:
Aryxbez 06-11-07, 08:50 AM	Yes I do thank you, I will be glad to hear more from you OneWinged4ngel, as it seems your wisdom is that the same of Seerow. Anyway, I am not worried about the whole optimization board builds, as some things like that will never be thought of in my games, and if it does occur, I will stop it before it happens. Besides my players don't really hide their characters from me. So OneWinged4ngel is there anything else you have done to balance your games, come to high levels?
OneWinged4ngel 06-11-07, 02:19 PM	Yes I do thank you, I will be glad to hear more from you OneWinged4ngel, as it seems your wisdom is that the same of Seerow. Anyway, I am not worried about the whole optimization board builds, as some things like that will never be thought of in my games, and if it does occur, I will stop it before it happens. Besides my players don't really hide their characters from me. So OneWinged4ngel is there anything else you have done to balance your games, come to high levels? Nothing more than my current house rules and variant classes and such I use. However, I'm still adding to those house rules (and one thing I definitely need to do at some point is get around to tweaking spells) Anyways, here's a post from one of my friends in my old Caster Discussion thread. No, they Polymorph Errata *said* it did that, and then didn't actually change the spell at all, unfortunately. It basically said 'ignore it', but it didn't actually change it or the fact that it's a viable option in everything bar RPGA. Spells I can think of off the top of my head that are probably 'too good' for their level or simply problematic: Web Solid Fog Phantom Steed (can't stress this enough - it should be fourth or fifth level) Command Undead Rope Trick Shrink Item Explosive Runes? Suggestion? Black Tentacles Minor Creation Telekenisis (Sort of - it's either weak (single combat manuever, shooting two medium-sized weapons) or far too good (15 colossal bolts, Alchemist's (X), Acid, Master of Unseen Hand 35x combat manuever cheese) ]Fabricate Geas/Quest Charm Monster Wind Wall ... Magnificent Mansion. Plane Shift (for Clerics moreso than Wizards. As a "get-away" button, it can be even worse than Teleport.) (Interestingly, almost all of these are conjuration spells. Geas/Quest is somewhat unique here - it's not all that 'great', per-se, but incredibly prone to abuse, considering it has no save, is incredibly vague, and lasts practically forever. Charm Monster is incredibly problematic because it lasts a day per caster level - you can keep one or five guys on your leash for... well, forever by the time you get access to it.) That should help you identify some of the issues that need to be tweaked. The full thread can be found here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773813&page=3
danielinthewolvesden 06-11-07, 02:38 PM	ToB/BoNS present warriors who are fine at high level. And altho straigh 20 level fighters are underpowered (well, with allowing all the feats from all the books they are not so bad) Fighters really shoul dbe in a cool PrC by the Mid-levels. A few simple ideas: No Timestop stuff. No Divine Metamagic. Becuase they take so long to play out: Web, Evards Tentacles, etc You could also rule that full Spellcasters get an empty level right before they get 9th level spells, delaying those spells by one level- the empty level has no new spells or new slots.
OneWinged4ngel 06-11-07, 03:07 PM	Becuase they take so long to play out: Web, Evards Tentacles, etc WHY do they take long to play out? It's never taken longer than pretty much anything else in my games... and Tellan sure did like to use Web.
Kaldric 06-11-07, 04:50 PM	My advice for balancing high levels is to DM the characters all the way from 1st level through high levels. By the time the character gets to 15th level, you should know exactly what the character is capable of, as well as what the other characters in the party are capable of. The players will be fully aware of what kind of threats they should stand up to, and what they should run from. Balance isn't really a problem at that point. In most of the threads I see that have problems with high-level balance, the DM decided to START at high levels, with optimized characters designed in such a way that they would never have survived long enough to GET to the high levels if they had actually been played. Then the players simply purchase the ideal set of items to increase their power out of all proportion, which serves to unbalance the game even further. It has been my experience that if the game is played from the beginning, balance problems that might show up at higher levels get taken care of before they ever become a problem.
Aryxbez 06-12-07, 12:02 AM	OneWinged4ngel, interesting Link, So otherwise High levels are pretty much unplayable? If the spells be bad, what of the monsters? the magic items?(I own the Magic Item Compendium). CR system to go with the monsters? The only problems I can see of a high level game are the: 1. Spellcasters and their super spells they rely on. 2. These other supplement spells from other books 3. Supposely the High CR monsters are out of whack, and making a high CR monster is second to impossible? 4. Fights become one-sided, and end in mere 1-3 rounds always? 5. Warriors are left in the background to be useless Here is what I think is an alternate solution or comment 1. Rid of some super spells like Polymorph, That evards tentacles, 2. I don't usually allow any other non-core spells since I am so unfamiliar with spells in general, especially non-core ones. Exceptions of course are the Orb spells for the Warmage and such. 3. This is the main one I fear out of all, If I can't rely on the CR system to work, then why bother making one for high levels in the first place? Also I think they need a way to calculate CR that works from low-high levels. 4. I don't really think this is stoppable except for ensuring the challenge doesn't make it oneo-sided so. 5. Well, I Incorporate a good amount of fixes from others on these boards, as you know: Seerow Fighter,OneWinged4ngel Paladin, The Barbarian and swashbuckler of Otto the Bugbear. I am still wondering on the Ranger, whether or not to use the Sublime ranger, since it has no spells, which means on awesome shooting everyone in the area spell, which is the only major ability I want as an maneuver for the Falling star style. Also the Monk I have some fix ideas, but otherwise got nothing. Also another thing is, that since my games are so warrior oriented. Due to the players liking to be warrior types, I don't force it upon anyone. The whole warrior types being useless is something that has not seem to came up yet.
OneWinged4ngel 06-12-07, 12:54 AM	Also the Monk I have some fix ideas, but otherwise got nothing. Swordsage. I also replace the Fighter with Warblade. OneWinged4ngel, interesting Link, So otherwise High levels are pretty much unplayable? I don't think it's unplayable at all...
Ulthain 06-12-07, 03:39 AM	Personally I think the system is fine as it is. If you only have one big encounter which lets the casters unleash everything in a short time span, then you have an adventure design problem. If your fighters are bringing the casters to the BBEG without them having to cast their spells, the fighters have likely had their fair share of fun getting there, and correctly built can still play a role in the final battle. Fighters and their equivalents shine in resource management, casters do not. Also, don't forget to demand focuses and material components. Consider taking this one step further, several high power spells require exotic focuses, demand that players actually find the parts through their adventures. This last option works better if you start your adventures on 1st level, since it will allow them to plan ahead for what they need to take with them from their enemies.
OneWinged4ngel 06-12-07, 04:02 AM	Personally I think the system is fine as it is. If you only have one big encounter which lets the casters unleash everything in a short time span, then you have an adventure design problem. At high levels, casters tend to have more than enough spells to last all day. I think they called that the Warlock Principle ;)
Muspelheim 06-12-07, 06:16 AM	If you only have one big encounter which lets the casters unleash everything in a short time span, then you have an adventure design problem. Problem is, you can only put the PCs on a timer every so often, otherwise it becomes contrived and annoying. And with access to various spells like rope trick, teleport etc. the party pretty much decides when it wants to rest if there isn't a time constraint. Besides, even with a time constraint less severe than the destruction of the universe or something similar, if the party feels it has used most of its resources (or even 'just' their best resources), they *will* rest, because it does absolutely no good to anyone to just press on and get themselves killed. Fighters and their equivalents shine in resource management, casters do not. No, fighty types don't really shine in ressource management necessarily. Once the casters are done, the fighters can't realistically be expected to go on in most cases - they are pretty much reliant on the buffs the casters provide and the healing. Meleeists have a very depletable resource - hp. Sure, you can burn through wands of lesser vigour like there's no tomorrow, but still, in a lot of cases you probably might want to refrain from doing that excessively unless you really need to.
Nid_Food 06-12-07, 07:52 AM	Problem is, you can only put the PCs on a timer every so often, otherwise it becomes contrived and annoying. And with access to various spells like rope trick, teleport etc. the party pretty much decides when it wants to rest if there isn't a time constraint. Besides, even with a time constraint less severe than the destruction of the universe or something similar, if the party feels it has used most of its resources (or even 'just' their best resources), they *will* rest, because it does absolutely no good to anyone to just press on and get themselves killed. At higher levels, parties aren't walking around helping random old ladies across the street and taking down orc raiding parties. They're probably doing something a little more earth shattering, and with that comes baddies a little scarier & smarter. So it makes sense for a timeline to kick in. The spell the evil wizard cast that'll destroy the world will take a week before it is complete, giving the PCs enough time to grab the amulet of holiness, battle their way through the wizard's minions and stop the spell. Don't let casters rest after every encounter or so. That makes casters appear unbalanced when they can blaze into a battle, blow their most awesome spells, then run & hide for the night to rest.
Aryxbez 06-12-07, 09:19 AM	I thought this thread was about what is unbalancing at high levels, and how you personally solve the problem. A bunch of What if questions/answers don't really get anywhere. So I request that you please stay more on topic. As I'm sure I would like to hear how all of you personally handle high levels in your games. If it seems you never had problems, then tell me, why have your games never had problems? What has been done in your games that make them as great as said by you. Not that my games have had problems, mostly since I have never truly have had a game that continually went into the high levels. However this time around I will have a game going to level 20 regardless. So really I just wanna hear what makes High levels so scary, and how to solve the problems so I will have an idea of what High levels are like.
Nid_Food 06-12-07, 09:33 AM	Not that my games have had problems, mostly since I have never truly have had a game that continually went into the high levels. However this time around I will have a game going to level 20 regardless. So really I just wanna hear what makes High levels so scary, and how to solve the problems so I will have an idea of what High levels are like. Give the players a timeline, and make it a tight schedule. They should be fighting to save humanity/kingdom/realm/world, not out on a Sunday stroll to save the world. Make the bad guys smart. They can scry, gather information...etc about the PCs. When the bad guy knows they're coming for him, he'll be prepared. Don't hold back come battle time. The PCs will be throwing out some high powered attacks, so swing back in kind. Since you have high level baddies at your disposal, use some innovative strategies. There are hundreds of ideas here that you can use. Enemies who're invisible & silenced to begin with to sneak up on the party. Buffed baddies who teleport into the middle of the group. Quick casting wizards who are throwing 2 spells a round. Timestop + Summon Monster. And invisible Dual Wielding Assassin with 2 wounding weapons to sneak up on the party cleric mid-fight (8 sneak attacks if hasted using just the core rules). I'm sure others can come up with even more evil ideas. Negate teleporting spells somehow -- dimensional anchor for example.
Kaldric 06-12-07, 02:56 PM	What makes high levels so scary... Optimized characters who have been allowed to use their wealth to buy exactly the right magic items to make themselves more powerful than their level would indicate. Casters that have ignored the good of the party, avoided taking support feats such as item creation, and instead optimized to be more powerful than their level would indicate. DMs who try to run a campaign at 20th level using only the challenges they used at 1st level. That is, monsters who sit around waiting to be killed.
CryoSilver 06-12-07, 03:18 PM	At higher levels, I spread out the encounter among several weaker creatures instead of one or two very powerful ones, and I play monsters as smart as they should be. I also optimize monsters; I swap out feats and skills from the Monster Manual to keep things fresh. Things not to forget at high levels: Counterspelling; enemy spellcasters should be ready to counter things like Gate Long distance. At level 20, an enemy wizard can shoot a fireball 1200 feet...
devinmdp 06-12-07, 05:05 PM	The basic problem at higher levels is not the rules per se, it is the DMs who only follow the literal rules set without injecting the "oral tradition" of their own campaign settings into the rules set. Character Optimization is very easy to quell. Simply don't allow players to have their PCs dip in and out of classes and PrC at will. Use a little common sense. Can a PC who has been a fighter for 6 levels suddenly decide to "become" a cleric of a god? Why? Shouldn't a cleric be someone who is truly devoted to a god's aims and service and has spent some large amoutn of time proving this devotion as a lay member of the church? Should a PC who has never shown an inkling of spell talent in his life suddenly be able to snap his fingers and become a level 1 wizard? What happened to the years of apprenticeship and studying? A DM who allows BS like this simply because the rules don't prohibit it gets what he deserves, expecially at higher levels. Magic item combos and spell issues are tougher to deal with, but I handle them fairly simply in my campaign world: Magic Items: Require a recipe or some other factor to craft a given magic item. This allows you, the DM, to control what magic items enter your game. If a given magic item is nasty and going to mess up your campaign, don't let the PCs discover the recipe for creating it. In my own campaign, I do this and increase the crafting time for magic items tremendously. This helps to avoid the usual situation whereby any magic item given by the DM in the form of treasure is not simply sold in town for 50% gp and then that gold used to create the exact magic item the PCs want. There's almost no incentive for the PCs to ever keep any magic items the DM places as treasure. Why bother when you can sell the item for 50% value, which just happens to be the exact same amount it costs to manufacture a given magic item (i.e. 50%). So unless that magic item the DM has placed as treasure just happens to be the one the PCs want to craft, there's just no reason to keep it. Magic items simply become gold pieces on the hoof. The DM might as well simply take any magic he was going to give as treasure, cut it in half, and give it out as gp. Spells: This is the trickiest of all. Obviously, one could ban spells. But I think if a DM simply sits his players down and states, as I have, that we are playing a role playing game and not a wargame, and therefore the INTENT of a spell is more important than the literal text, then many abuses should be stopped dead in their tracks. I've told my players that I will not allow anything to break my game. Therefore, if they come up with an exploit, they should assume that I will step in and close the loophole. Therefore, they should not be encouraged to even bother trying to exploit such loopholes. An example: I have a high level psion (shaper) in my campaign. He has psionic fabricate. I told the player I know about all of the economic abuses of the power, and that I would not allow it to happen. The intent of the power is to provide the PCs with mundane items they might need quickly, or to change the shape or nature of items the PCs encounter. If he tried to exploit the power by using it economically, I would nerf it by introducing some flaw that causes the stuff to degrade over time and that there would be some strange sheen or other means for anyone to tell that an item was fabricated. He agreed and promised not to even bother to attempt to exploit the power in that fashion. Another example: Shapechange and polymorph. These require the PC to have extensive knowledge of the creature in question. After all, how can you shapechange into something with its various powers and abilities when you have no idea what the creature can or cannot do. This simple, yet logical, approach allows me to effectively limit 95% of the potential abuses of these spells. The end result is that the DM needs to start stressing to players that D&D is all about an interactive story being told by the players and the DM, not an arms race where the players attempt to "win" the game by defeating the DM by means of loopholes and optimizations. Devin
Aryxbez 06-13-07, 05:14 AM	If Superbly made characters and magic items are the only problems at higher levels, then I must be good for the entire game. As my players don't really cross other campaign books like the Optimized boards do, in fact I don't think they optimize alot at all. The whole magic item thing won't really occur since the campaign is currently low-magic, it is a reason due to the events of the last campaign since my campaign is pretty much done in a series of sorts. Although it is Low-magic, I am not too worried about the challenges, since this one thread on Regdars Repository covers low-magic, and quite well I think. Here is the Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=765127)
ezreal2001 06-13-07, 09:47 AM	If Superbly made characters and magic items are the only problems at higher levels, then I must be good for the entire game. As my players don't really cross other campaign books like the Optimized boards do, in fact I don't think they optimize alot at all. The whole magic item thing won't really occur since the campaign is currently low-magic, it is a reason due to the events of the last campaign since my campaign is pretty much done in a series of sorts. Although it is Low-magic, I am not too worried about the challenges, since this one thread on Regdars Repository covers low-magic, and quite well I think. Here is the Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=765127) At risk thread jackng, could I point that by allowing the PCs to be full casters, the writer in question has mooted a low magic environment where caster PC's are gaurenteed to be the most powerfull in their weight division (magic users or otherwise). Rathar than searching for 'balance' maybe you should just focus on weather your players are enjoying them selves. BTW running your campaign from levels 2 to 8, with no full casters (maybe for the Evil Bad Guy) and delayed progression is alot fun and is alot more likely to achive the result you seem to be looking for.
Aryxbez 06-13-07, 10:03 AM	Well my game is fine, just I am asking for tips so when I hit the high levels, I will have an idea of what to expect. I already know quite a bit of all this stuff, just I wanna make sure there are no angles I have overlooked. Funny thing is currently there are no spellcasters in one part of my campaign, my campaign has two different PCs, all the spellcasters are mostly on the second group, which funnily enough is not that low of magic there so it is perfect for them. If spellcasters did come to the first group, I would just have to adjust some encounters slightly most likely.