Balancing Renaissance Weaponry [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing Renaissance Weaponry [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaime_Wolf
07-30-05, 09:51 PM Now, the unrealistic nature of the Renaissance firearms in the DMG was already discussed elsewhere, but I need to do something that will make them a bit more realistic (and a bit more like how I want them to work in my campaign) and still balance them.

For the sake of not making my players hate me, though it isn't historically accurate (though neither are dragons or magic), I'm assuming these muskets are (rudimentarily) rifled and they're breech-loading (there'd be way too many groans if I increased the time it takes to reload them just for reality's sake). In essence, they don't have such bad aim that they're weaker than a gnome throwing a rock, but I want a crossbow or longbow to be MUCH more preferable for accuracy. As they're somewhat well-known in my campaign, they're going to be martial, not exotic weapons.

Now, I think they should have less range than a longbow, but pretty close, so I'm thinking 90 ft range increment (no one can really "arc a musket shot" like they can a bow, and these are simplistic guns so I feel this is appropriate). The biggest boon for them is that they ignore the AC bonus of any non-chain armours. I'd also like to up their critical to x4. I was considering upping damage, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced it would be. Shot will be enchantable, though the weapons themselves will not be. Also, clearly many ranged feats simply won't work with firearms, really, only a few such as specialisation and focus would make any sense. And, most importantly, I want to give them an extra -1 penalty for each range increment they go out.

So, what do you think, would this be balanced in a campaign that will probably run from level 5-20 or beyond? If any parts should be changed, which parts (please only try to balance the numbers, I don't want to change any features I've already mentioned)? The guns should be useful, but should not overshadow all other weapons, reality can be thrown a good half-way out the window for the sake of balance.

Also, I'm allowing them to be reloaded with a light weapon in your off hand as a full-round action, and, with a special item, as a full-round action with a one-handed weapon or a standard action (like normal) with a masterwork version of said item.
Lord Schpungus
07-30-05, 11:32 PM Umm...

D&D isn't about realism. It's about playability. Use the musket from the DMG; people a lot smarter than you actually worked to test the rules out. Cha.
weasel fierce
07-30-05, 11:54 PM Disregarding any illusions of "professional game designers" I doubt much playtesting went into the musket entry :rolleyes:

Im not sure what purpose having rifled muskets would do. Historically, rifle muskets were capable of firing accurately, and lethally to distances of 3-400 yards, putting bows and crossbows in the grave. Regular muskets are rather inaccurate, but very powerfull, which sounds more like what you are looking for, in comparison to bows.

Once you move into breechloading rifles, you are talking about late 19th century weaponry, and well past the age of D&D.
TinManFan
07-31-05, 12:00 AM Uh, the muskets of the 1800s were. The muskets of the 1500 were better off used to walk up and beat someone with.

I'm playing in a steampunk-esque game right now where guns are accessable. Most people pass on them simply because the rules we're using the things take for-freakin-ever to reload.
Jaime_Wolf
07-31-05, 01:29 AM I said I wanted a realistic gun, not a gun that was realistic to the time period. I also specifically asked for input on whether it'd be balanced, not on whether it'd be realistic. The biggest problem I have with the rules being balanced is compare the range increment (and therefore accuracy) of any weapon to the MUSKET. Play testing nothing, I do not want to create the incredible weapon of doom that takes 1 standard action to reload, does good damage of being hit with a greatsword, has a x3 critical, AND can fire further than a composite longbow and more accurately.

And yes, I am really looking for a smooth bore weapon in terms of realism, but as noted, they'd be more useful to smack someone with than to fire. For that purpose I tried to make a compromise and said rough, rudimentary rifling.

TinManFan, if either you or someone else could direct me to those rules you are using, or other rules on the subject that don't make Renaissance muskets more accurate than modern hunting rifles, that'd be great.
cutsleeve
07-31-05, 02:26 AM Use the musket from the DMG; people a lot smarter than you actually worked to test the rules out. Cha.

Who ever said you had to be smart to test anything or write anything for that matter.

Besides smart people decided to send troops into veitnam with a prototype rifle and decided to make modifications to eliminate "uneeded enhancement" which ended up causing them to jam all the time.

Plenty of early aviators thought they could make a flying machine and proved it could work by making a really tiny one and testing it. Only to find out that the areodynamics of a tiny model are not the areodynamics of a big model.

Experts said the titanic was unsinkable.

and Im sure the russian fully tested chernobl.

Just because its tested doesnt mean its good, and just because someone wrote something doesnt mean theyre smart. :D :D :D
Lord Schpungus
07-31-05, 02:55 AM True, but just because you bought the DMG doesn't mean you know what the heck this little thing called "game balance" is and how to attempt it. Making yourself too much work just makes you worn out anyways. I still say, go by the DMG firearms. They may not be realistic, but they'll keep your whole party from immediately upgrading to fully automatic rifles rather than Actual Renaissance weaponry.
weasel fierce
07-31-05, 03:01 AM well, as for balance, you wrote it yourself. you want it to be significantly less accurate than a bow. Since weapons only have two factors in D&D, accuracy and damage, if you lower one, and want the weapon to be comparable, just increase the damage.

Cut the bows range factors in half, and raise damage by whatever you find appropriate. Maybe give a special bonus against targets that rely on heavy armour.
cutsleeve
07-31-05, 05:48 AM The damage for black powder rifles should be about average say only up to 1d10 for some of the large ones say up to .60 caliber. However they should be handled as a ranged touch attack since they penatrate all but the thickest, heaviest, and strongest of plate armor. Maybe giving armor a 1/3 acreditdation for AC.

Accuracy is another matter for a smoothbore musket there should be significant penalties to hit these where weapons used en-mass on battle fields and where innacurate individually. Only through combined volume of fire where they effective. For rifles this is not true even the most primative rifles where very accurate and where not uncommon as hunters used then since they are the only way to accurately hunt with Black Powder.

A note on reloading, this should be 3 or 4 rounds in length with one round shaved off for a Quick Reload feat. This means that the character will have to do what others did during the renaissance and carry either one firearm and use it from a moderate to long range or have several firearms on their person.

A good fictional referance for this would be Solomon Kane by Robert E. Howard he carries 2 flintlock pistols, a flintlock rifle, and a rapier. He Primarily used the rifle but after that he could then fall back on the pistols or sometimes he used the rifle as a club or rapier normally.

People who employed Firearms had to more or less specialize in them since they only had one shot they had to make it count if they missed they may not have time to reload or even effix a bayonet. For there they would have to employ a melee weapon which is why the art of fencing was taken up. It allowed then to carry a light back up weapon with their rifles. In war the one factor that always leads to changes in gear is weight and money these are constants in war.

The reloading time for a firearm is the balancing part, not the damage or accuracy but the speed at which it can be reused. Even in D&D a 3 round wait isnt that much in comparrison to what your getting for it. 3 rounds of reloading where you will be open for AOO. Also if your hit then you will probably have to roll a concentration check to see if you mess up reloading.
TinManFan
07-31-05, 11:40 AM There's a set of 3rd party books that are very Steam-Punk esque. The name escapes me, but they also have rules for steam powered power armor and stuff like that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaime_Wolf 07-30-05, 09:51 PM	Now, the unrealistic nature of the Renaissance firearms in the DMG was already discussed elsewhere, but I need to do something that will make them a bit more realistic (and a bit more like how I want them to work in my campaign) and still balance them. For the sake of not making my players hate me, though it isn't historically accurate (though neither are dragons or magic), I'm assuming these muskets are (rudimentarily) rifled and they're breech-loading (there'd be way too many groans if I increased the time it takes to reload them just for reality's sake). In essence, they don't have such bad aim that they're weaker than a gnome throwing a rock, but I want a crossbow or longbow to be MUCH more preferable for accuracy. As they're somewhat well-known in my campaign, they're going to be martial, not exotic weapons. Now, I think they should have less range than a longbow, but pretty close, so I'm thinking 90 ft range increment (no one can really "arc a musket shot" like they can a bow, and these are simplistic guns so I feel this is appropriate). The biggest boon for them is that they ignore the AC bonus of any non-chain armours. I'd also like to up their critical to x4. I was considering upping damage, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced it would be. Shot will be enchantable, though the weapons themselves will not be. Also, clearly many ranged feats simply won't work with firearms, really, only a few such as specialisation and focus would make any sense. And, most importantly, I want to give them an extra -1 penalty for each range increment they go out. So, what do you think, would this be balanced in a campaign that will probably run from level 5-20 or beyond? If any parts should be changed, which parts (please only try to balance the numbers, I don't want to change any features I've already mentioned)? The guns should be useful, but should not overshadow all other weapons, reality can be thrown a good half-way out the window for the sake of balance. Also, I'm allowing them to be reloaded with a light weapon in your off hand as a full-round action, and, with a special item, as a full-round action with a one-handed weapon or a standard action (like normal) with a masterwork version of said item.
Lord Schpungus 07-30-05, 11:32 PM	Umm... D&D isn't about realism. It's about playability. Use the musket from the DMG; people a lot smarter than you actually worked to test the rules out. Cha.
weasel fierce 07-30-05, 11:54 PM	Disregarding any illusions of "professional game designers" I doubt much playtesting went into the musket entry :rolleyes: Im not sure what purpose having rifled muskets would do. Historically, rifle muskets were capable of firing accurately, and lethally to distances of 3-400 yards, putting bows and crossbows in the grave. Regular muskets are rather inaccurate, but very powerfull, which sounds more like what you are looking for, in comparison to bows. Once you move into breechloading rifles, you are talking about late 19th century weaponry, and well past the age of D&D.
TinManFan 07-31-05, 12:00 AM	Uh, the muskets of the 1800s were. The muskets of the 1500 were better off used to walk up and beat someone with. I'm playing in a steampunk-esque game right now where guns are accessable. Most people pass on them simply because the rules we're using the things take for-freakin-ever to reload.
Jaime_Wolf 07-31-05, 01:29 AM	I said I wanted a realistic gun, not a gun that was realistic to the time period. I also specifically asked for input on whether it'd be balanced, not on whether it'd be realistic. The biggest problem I have with the rules being balanced is compare the range increment (and therefore accuracy) of any weapon to the MUSKET. Play testing nothing, I do not want to create the incredible weapon of doom that takes 1 standard action to reload, does good damage of being hit with a greatsword, has a x3 critical, AND can fire further than a composite longbow and more accurately. And yes, I am really looking for a smooth bore weapon in terms of realism, but as noted, they'd be more useful to smack someone with than to fire. For that purpose I tried to make a compromise and said rough, rudimentary rifling. TinManFan, if either you or someone else could direct me to those rules you are using, or other rules on the subject that don't make Renaissance muskets more accurate than modern hunting rifles, that'd be great.
cutsleeve 07-31-05, 02:26 AM	Use the musket from the DMG; people a lot smarter than you actually worked to test the rules out. Cha. Who ever said you had to be smart to test anything or write anything for that matter. Besides smart people decided to send troops into veitnam with a prototype rifle and decided to make modifications to eliminate "uneeded enhancement" which ended up causing them to jam all the time. Plenty of early aviators thought they could make a flying machine and proved it could work by making a really tiny one and testing it. Only to find out that the areodynamics of a tiny model are not the areodynamics of a big model. Experts said the titanic was unsinkable. and Im sure the russian fully tested chernobl. Just because its tested doesnt mean its good, and just because someone wrote something doesnt mean theyre smart. :D :D :D
Lord Schpungus 07-31-05, 02:55 AM	True, but just because you bought the DMG doesn't mean you know what the heck this little thing called "game balance" is and how to attempt it. Making yourself too much work just makes you worn out anyways. I still say, go by the DMG firearms. They may not be realistic, but they'll keep your whole party from immediately upgrading to fully automatic rifles rather than Actual Renaissance weaponry.
weasel fierce 07-31-05, 03:01 AM	well, as for balance, you wrote it yourself. you want it to be significantly less accurate than a bow. Since weapons only have two factors in D&D, accuracy and damage, if you lower one, and want the weapon to be comparable, just increase the damage. Cut the bows range factors in half, and raise damage by whatever you find appropriate. Maybe give a special bonus against targets that rely on heavy armour.
cutsleeve 07-31-05, 05:48 AM	The damage for black powder rifles should be about average say only up to 1d10 for some of the large ones say up to .60 caliber. However they should be handled as a ranged touch attack since they penatrate all but the thickest, heaviest, and strongest of plate armor. Maybe giving armor a 1/3 acreditdation for AC. Accuracy is another matter for a smoothbore musket there should be significant penalties to hit these where weapons used en-mass on battle fields and where innacurate individually. Only through combined volume of fire where they effective. For rifles this is not true even the most primative rifles where very accurate and where not uncommon as hunters used then since they are the only way to accurately hunt with Black Powder. A note on reloading, this should be 3 or 4 rounds in length with one round shaved off for a Quick Reload feat. This means that the character will have to do what others did during the renaissance and carry either one firearm and use it from a moderate to long range or have several firearms on their person. A good fictional referance for this would be Solomon Kane by Robert E. Howard he carries 2 flintlock pistols, a flintlock rifle, and a rapier. He Primarily used the rifle but after that he could then fall back on the pistols or sometimes he used the rifle as a club or rapier normally. People who employed Firearms had to more or less specialize in them since they only had one shot they had to make it count if they missed they may not have time to reload or even effix a bayonet. For there they would have to employ a melee weapon which is why the art of fencing was taken up. It allowed then to carry a light back up weapon with their rifles. In war the one factor that always leads to changes in gear is weight and money these are constants in war. The reloading time for a firearm is the balancing part, not the damage or accuracy but the speed at which it can be reused. Even in D&D a 3 round wait isnt that much in comparrison to what your getting for it. 3 rounds of reloading where you will be open for AOO. Also if your hit then you will probably have to roll a concentration check to see if you mess up reloading.
TinManFan 07-31-05, 11:40 AM	There's a set of 3rd party books that are very Steam-Punk esque. The name escapes me, but they also have rules for steam powered power armor and stuff like that.