Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DuergarChampion93 04-25-07, 06:54 PM	My group is used to playing DDM, (for all you guys that don't use figs to represent combat, it stands for D&D minis.) so they think about rolling and fighting first. They barley even roll play, They treat it like another DDM game, kill the monsters and win. I would like advice on how to convert them into thinkers, and RPG-ers (that should be a word) so I can enjoy writing out the story for them.
oden131 04-25-07, 06:57 PM	my first thought would be to make them get the directions to the dungeon from several people and use skill checks to not make it easy hopefully sooner or later they will roleplay it
DarkNick 04-25-07, 07:02 PM	Do a session without any combat in it...? I would avoid writing a story for them - create a situation but let them write their own story. Give rewards for non-combat play. Make their roleplay actions have an impact on the world. They will more likely want to do it. but saying that don't expect miracles...
tahngarth40 04-25-07, 07:05 PM	Umm, if thats what the whole group wants to do, let them do it If thats not how you want to run a game, its not for you to decide how they should play D&D, either explain to them that you would like to play differently, but you can't force it on them. May be time to look for a different group
Fish Ninja 04-25-07, 07:07 PM	A few ideas: 1. You could start giving out XP for good roleplaying/take away XP for acting out of character. 2. You could just tell them that D&D is a roleplaying game and ask them to try a little harder to roleplay. 3. You could stop using miniatures. This would make it seem more like a roleplaying game instead of a miniatures game. It also encourages the players to use thier imaginations, which might pull them into the game more. Hope this helps.
DarkNick 04-25-07, 07:18 PM	I think tahngarth40 is right in that there is no motvation to change. They are already having fun. But I do think you can inject more roleplaying than you have been. Create situations that can only be solved though roleplay, make them personal to the players characters and create interesting outcomes. I used to write a 'newspaper' for each session where I wrote sorries that were often a result of the players actions or a misinterpretation of the players actions... Made my players feel they had an impact on their world.
Mock26 04-25-07, 07:18 PM	It could be worse, you could be playing with a ship of fools! :D On a serious note, include more puzzles and traps and such. Include encounters that would require the use of some of their various skills. And, above all, throw in some city adventures! A classic city adventure is locating and then eliminating a thief's guild. This will require them to interact with various people in the town in a non-combat way. Or, you could have an underdark "free city" that is full of people of all alignments and such and where not everyone is as they seem (such as good orcs and drow and evil halflings). If they simply start killing things they could be in for a big surprise when the accidentally kill the good drow who has information that they need. And, search for published modules that have more of a role-playing flavor and less of a roll playing one.
DarkNick 04-25-07, 07:22 PM	Think about how you structure adventures too. You might have this big story about betrayal and mystery but if all the players need to do is go in the dungeon and find a particular item then your story is a waste of time. Make it so the story does not exist without the players.
LoneStranger 04-25-07, 07:25 PM	Yeah I would have to agree with the points already made here. Take some time and talk to your group about what a D&D game is and what's involved in the RPG version. Also you should try to put in situations where they have to make skill rolls or actually talk to someone to get the info they need. At first you may want to throw in an NPC who could help them refine their ability to interact but don't give them the chance to rely on his services to do all the stuff they don't want to do.
MethaneGranola 04-25-07, 07:42 PM	Umm, if thats what the whole group wants to do, let them do it If thats not how you want to run a game, its not for you to decide how they should play D&D, either explain to them that you would like to play differently, but you can't force it on them. May be time to look for a different group you can so force it on them , you just have to be subtle about it if i have learned anything in my years of DnD is that players play the way you want them too, it just takes slow simple adjustments in 1 baby step at a time. It isnt hard to jump from role playing to dungeon crawling, but it is hard to work back up to roleplaying. if you are the sole DMing influence, then there isnt much they can do other than to adapt to the way you do it. if your players are anything like mine, they will try as hard as they can to play, if you mix it up and whooosh out combat and throw in RPing as a way to play, then it is likely they wont know what to do, it works the same way going down to the dungeon, RPing players dont know how to dungeon crawl, and crawlers dont know how to roleplay.(not actually that true, there id say all players could handle both to some extent, my point is there is a big difference.) the line between playing and DM styles is gray and blured at best
DuergarChampion93 04-25-07, 08:49 PM	Thanx, I appreciate it, however I put in many skill checks, but they don't get it. for example: DM (Me) The case is locked DC 21 Open Players: 15, 17, 8, 12, 20, and 13 But then Players: 12, 16, 13, 19, 16, and 18 and again players: 14, 15, 18, 19, 20, and 21 They keep rerolling, until they make it and don't allow me to tell the outcome of the first failure. and when i tell them to stop after the first roll, they do it again next time.
Destrieth 04-25-07, 09:17 PM	This is obviously a case where you need to sit down with them at the beginning of the game, and lay the ground work. You can't explain this stuff as you go along. You need to say that you are, in fact, the dungeon master, and there are consequences for failing rolls and bad choices. I'd say if they keep doing that after you explain you want a little more role in the roleplaying, you have every right to shrug and not DM for 'em until they shape up. Everyone should be having fun, and there's no reason they can't lean a little bit to accomodate you; after all, it sounds like they get their way 100% of the time.
Zankue 04-25-07, 10:56 PM	Thanx, I appreciate it, however I put in many skill checks, but they don't get it. for example: DM (Me) The case is locked DC 21 Open Players: 15, 17, 8, 12, 20, and 13 But then Players: 12, 16, 13, 19, 16, and 18 and again players: 14, 15, 18, 19, 20, and 21 They keep rerolling, until they make it and don't allow me to tell the outcome of the first failure. and when i tell them to stop after the first roll, they do it again next time. Just a suggestion, I think that you shouldn't tell them the DC to the skill checks that way it's required that they listen to you for what happens each time. I say talk to them about roleplaying, and than put in NPC's that they can do that with, also raise the XP you give for RPing, that should encourage stat based players. For example if they talk to an NPC, right away in front of every one else givem 100 xp (or more depending on their lvl) after they get used to doing this lower RP XP to the normal amount and you'll see that they'll start Role playing without having to be prompted to do so
Mock26 04-25-07, 11:15 PM	Thanx, I appreciate it, however I put in many skill checks, but they don't get it. for example: DM (Me) The case is locked DC 21 Open Players: 15, 17, 8, 12, 20, and 13 But then Players: 12, 16, 13, 19, 16, and 18 and again players: 14, 15, 18, 19, 20, and 21 They keep rerolling, until they make it and don't allow me to tell the outcome of the first failure. and when i tell them to stop after the first roll, they do it again next time. You just need to stress to them that they are to only roll a single d20, and then only once. Of course, I don't understand how they would get this belief in constant rolling from playing D&D mini's. If they only had a single mini left they would still only roll a single die for a DC roll, right? If they are only playing one character why would they think that they should roll 6 consecutive d20's as fast as possible. The D&D mini's game does not encourage this type of behavior.
Nathreet 04-26-07, 01:56 AM	The PHB does encourage such behavior, though. Unless the lock is trapped they can retry as many times as they want. First, don't tell them the DC. Second, tell them they can take a 20 if they spend 2 minutes - or however long 20 attempts takes - on it, rather than rolling over and over again. But if it's trapped and they try to take a 20, they automatically spring the trap before they get a chance to open the lock (b/c they automatically roll a 1 before they automatically roll the 20). Personally I don't think it helps the story-ambiance to tell the players "it goes click-click and won't open" 15 times. Same goes for search checks, etc., etc. But not all skills can be retried. For example: with knowledge skills you either know it or you don't. Most of this is common sense, but if you're not sure then the PHB will tell you which ones can be retried. I'll agree that if your players are having fun you should let them roll-play instead of role-play. OTOH it's better to appeal to better qualities if possible. Slowly introduce other types of challenges into play, like the ones people have suggested already. Skill checks, yes, but other things too. But still continue the DDM-like game most of the time. Try to catch their interest and/or see what kind of special challenges they like; don't try to force them into it if they aren't having fun. If you try everything, they still only like DDM-style and you're not having fun, then you should probably seek another group.
danielinthewolvesden 04-26-07, 03:27 AM	Yep, those IDIOTS, darn their little pointy heads. How dare they want to have FUN while playing a GAME!?! Shame on those morons. :rolleyes: :allalone: :rant:
DarkRhystar 04-26-07, 03:47 AM	Yep, those IDIOTS, darn their little pointy heads. How dare they want to have FUN while playing a GAME!?! Shame on those morons. Pfft, having fun isn't cool anymore. Not having fun; yeah, that's where it's at. Yeah, right... They barley even roll play, They treat it like another DDM game, kill the monsters and win. I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.
Leilond 04-26-07, 03:57 AM	1) Talk with them 2) Design adventures with not too much combat 3) Design an encounter where if they kill the opponent instead of "diplomacy/bluff/indimidate" they won't recive the information they need for the adventure 4) Do not tell them the DC of skill checks unless they're obivious (a jump will be known, because they see the distance they have to jump, but open lock isn't so clear. You can say "Well... this lock seems a bit complicated... something between DC 20 and DC 28, or "you haven't seen a lock like that, you don't know the DC", so that after a "check" they've to wait your "result") 5) When "open lock" come you stop them rolling telling "No, you cannot roll until I say you. Please, tell me who will try first, there can be a trap on the lock... or pheraps not" 6) Talk with them 7) Have I already said "Talk with them"?
Solik 04-26-07, 01:51 PM	Nathreet's advice was spot on. Do not change the game. They are having fun. Instead, do the following: * Learn how to run the game a bit better. The skills example was telling. Players only need to roll when they're rushed / there's consequences for failure. Otherwise, they can take 20 just fine. If you didn't let them do this, then endlessly rolling is what they should be doing (and that's why this rule exists). I don't think I'd be telling them the DC for stuff like this either (although for some things it's okay, like long jump DCs). * Keep the style they know and love an integral part of the game. Design around it, not against it. * Add to the game. Place roleplay encounters within your hack-n-slash dungeon. Not ones like Meepo in Sunless Citadel either (where your players are most likely to just kill the NPC on sight). A good way to start this is with a rescue quest. Make sure the NPC they rescue is one they'd be fond of (I assume you know your players and would be able to do this). Roleplay as this character when they meet, and make the rescue part just be part 1 (instead of just immediately leaving, taking the person to safety, the NPC reveals some information that leads to the next step in the quest -- preferrably something that's important to the NPC and would be to the players as well). * Bring your players' characters together better. I've found that groups are more cohesive and willing to roleplay when they're not just 4-6 random adventurers working together for money. Talk with them to see what kind of connection they'd like to have. They could be a mercenary company with a name, symbol, and reputation -- it's a very minor twist on the cliche, but it gives them a sense of identity. Perhaps they're all childhood friends, or relatives. Maybe they're fighting together for religious beliefs, or political beliefs. Maybe they're a pirate gang that just haven't quite gotten their ship yet. Anything but 4 guys who met in a tavern and decided to kill stuff together. * Bring in NPCs that have some important relation to the PCs. Your players may not be giving you much backstory to work with; if that's the case, you have more flexibility to make up stuff. You can introduce sisters, cousins, uncles, and whatever else as important NPCs, both good and bad. Simple stuff like this the players can readily identify with and may be more willing to accept the motivations that come along with it.
stackmachine 04-26-07, 02:46 PM	A few ideas: 1. You could start giving out XP for good roleplaying/take away XP for acting out of character. 2. You could just tell them that D&D is a roleplaying game and ask them to try a little harder to roleplay. 3. You could stop using miniatures. This would make it seem more like a roleplaying game instead of a miniatures game. It also encourages the players to use thier imaginations, which might pull them into the game more. Hope this helps. good avise there. in my experience, giving out incentives for certain things is great. announce an incentiveprogramm for group- and teamwork-actions, but don't tell them the specs. give, say, 50-100 xp each for: - the riddle-king (self-explanatory) - best haggler/ bluffer/ sweet-talker/ (roleplayer yet?) - most helpful character in a session (could be healing, lending items for a cerain job, in-game gathering of vital information...) - most damage in a single round - captain pacifist (like sleep/ charm/ talking for a good non-combat solution) - combat regisseur (to somebody who give helpful directions for flanking, ambush, bullrush etc.) - good in-character-play (like playing out a flaw or knack) - etc. - etc. with these lil goodies you can effectively train your players for non-mini-related ways to interact. and make them see the light aside the combatgrid, like have a critter start to negotiate or suggest a bribe to let them pass... right now they don't seem to care about other options, so nudge them, but just a lil... one more thing: if they enjoy using minis, don't take them away; just remind them with the suggested tools that there is in most cases more than one way to get through the dungeon, and some are more elegant than the others... have fun, and faith :), it won't happen overnight!
Solik 04-26-07, 02:53 PM	No, it's bad advice. Don't ever ever ever take away XP for "acting out of character." RP XP rewards are debatable, but you should consider carefully how and when to implement it. Don't just up and tell them to roleplay, that they're playing it wrong and need to adjust to fit your tastes. It won't help anything, and if they force themselves to do it because "DM said so," then they're going to enjoy it even less. Don't stop using miniatures. The game's entire combat system is based around it. Without them, the gameplay part of the game will suffer -- and your players obviously enjoy that part of the game very much.
twad 04-26-07, 03:52 PM	Thanx, I appreciate it, however I put in many skill checks, but they don't get it. for example: DM (Me) The case is locked DC 21 Open Players: 15, 17, 8, 12, 20, and 13 But then Players: 12, 16, 13, 19, 16, and 18 and again players: 14, 15, 18, 19, 20, and 21 They keep rerolling, until they make it and don't allow me to tell the outcome of the first failure. and when i tell them to stop after the first roll, they do it again next time. Then they failed to open the door on all rolls, they also broke the lock or something equaly bad happens. Re-rolling that much just mean that they want to "win", and dont really care about the rules..
Castegyre 04-26-07, 04:01 PM	Don't stop using miniatures. The game's entire combat system is based around it. Without them, the gameplay part of the game will suffer -- and your players obviously enjoy that part of the game very much. We seldom if ever use mini's and the game play never suffers. Imagination for the win.
Solik 04-26-07, 04:08 PM	Minis are crucial to the positioning rules of combat, especially for things like attacks of opportunity and line of sight. If you aren't using minis, then you're doing one of two things. Either you're playing it by ear (DM fiat combat), or you're just keeping mental note of where everyone and everything is. If you're doing the former, then you're not really playing much of a game, because the DM is arbitrarily deciding whether you have line of sight or whether you can move around someone without suffering AoO's, thus making gameplay suffer a blow. If it's the latter, then it's exactly the same as using minis, except you're having to keep track of more stuff mentally, which can be very hard (impossible in large-ish battles for most people). That's not to say that you enjoy D&D less if you do this. It just means you are purposefully de-emphasizing the gameplay part of it, which I highly doubt these gamers would appreciate.
Castegyre 04-26-07, 04:14 PM	You have valid points. The game as is is somewhat dependent on mini's and it does sound like this particular group would not be happy with their loss. I have been playing D&D for about 25 years and my wife for nearly as long. We came up not using mini's and with little or no rules governing their use. Pardon my elitism when I feel completely ok ignoring them.
DuergarChampion93 04-26-07, 04:42 PM	Ok, thanx evry1, i will use whatever advice you have given me. were playing this sunday, so i'll tell you how it went afterwards. if any1 has more advice, it is well appreciated.
Raveni 04-26-07, 04:55 PM	I second the "Add to the game" suggestion. I've run groups where you can tell that they get the greatest joy from excelling in combat, performing tactical maneuvers, and "winning" the adventure. There really isn't a problem in that. You've already done your job, because your players are already happy. Add to their experience by adding in Role Playing encounters where they can get tactical information from NPCs. Add NPC encounters with people thanking them or rewarding them after big battles or adventures to keep them feeling good about their victories. Keep doing little things to extend their euphoria from winning battles so they want to RP these things. You can still enjoy writing a story, you'll just have to tailor it to your players so that they can stay interested between fights.
THETUNNELRAT 04-26-07, 05:12 PM	Wow a blind wombat in a darkroom wearing a dress could see this problem coming a mile away. I have seen a major shift from roll playing to "war games .ie don't think jest kill then :drool: :cheer: heres what you do ........>let them it's a game have fun with it or if you fear it is a bane upon what you love then DROP THEM LIKE A HOT POTATO it may be hard to grasp but their are players out their who have a half of brain and use it to think instead of using it as a Minni in their game.:)
Dunsel 04-26-07, 05:29 PM	Roleplaying starts with the DM.
danielinthewolvesden 04-26-07, 09:34 PM	We seldom if ever use mini's and the game play never suffers. Imagination for the win. Then you can't play with Reach, Attacks of Opportunity, Flanking...... Not that those things are nessesary, but then why not play 2nd Ed?
Mock26 04-26-07, 10:52 PM	Then you can't play with Reach, Attacks of Opportunity, Flanking...... Not that those things are nessesary, but then why not play 2nd Ed? Contrary to some opinions, it is not only possible to fully incorporate all the combat rules of 3.5 (including Reach, Attacks of Opportunity, Flanking......) without the use of miniatures, but it is also possible to do it in a completely and totally fair way that does not rely on "DM fiat" and it is also possible to do it without having the gameplay suffer a blow. Huh, imagine that?
trapspringer 04-26-07, 11:11 PM	Off topic: Minis FTW. To the OP: Role playing starts with big complicated traps. I know that sounds counter-intuitve, but hang in there. So you have players that are used to kickin' down a door, positioning themselves tactically, and killing the monster. The first thing you need to do is show them there are other kinds of encounters in D&D. The kind of fight nearest an actual fight is a trap. You need something big, mechanical, and complicated. The likes of this trap can't be solved by a mere skill check, but instead it requires a coordinated party effort and a little puzzle solving (experience and loot should follow). Now you have shown them a fun time with something not directly related to killing stuff. Bravo. Let them kill some stuff, they've earned it. Now you need to push the envelope a little further. Rather than having an overt trap, you need to introduce some kind of obstacle. At low levels a vertical surface between them and their goal is a good fit. Now you've got 'em on to the idea that not all encounters will deal damage to them (accepting through their own stupidity). Again, they should now get a chance to kill some stuff. Now inject some light RP. Remember that RP starts with you and your interesting NPC. Flaunt some NPCs in front of them and look for cues about which ones they are intersted in. Usually even the least motivated players will take interest in unusual NPCs, particularly if they sense XP or GP lurking near by. (good choices include demi-humans, magicaly gifted kids, likeable criminals; all slightly less powerful than the party) Be sure to make this encounter short and memorable, and be sure it yields the players some significant benefit. 'Leet loot, gobs of XP, or a potent magic item would be a good call. The emphasis here is on getting the players to like the idea of talking to NPCs, not to fully engage them in RP (although running the NPC well and getting a little RP going will give you a valuable tool in generating future plot hooks and RP scenarios). Lastly, after a good dungeon-crawly adventure that follows, the players return home to recieve a letter from their NPC buddy saying he is in trouble and needs some help. Maybe he's been kidnapped by pirates or something, I dunno. What ever will motivate your players. Anyway, he's managed to sneak this note out the cargo hold where he's being... erm, held, along with piles of treasure and the like. Ta-da. Role Playing motivation. You are not on the path to plot-based, NPC interactin' gaming.
danielinthewolvesden 04-27-07, 02:34 AM	Contrary to some opinions, it is not only possible to fully incorporate all the combat rules of 3.5 (including Reach, Attacks of Opportunity, Flanking......) without the use of miniatures, but it is also possible to do it in a completely and totally fair way that does not rely on "DM fiat" and it is also possible to do it without having the gameplay suffer a blow. Huh, imagine that? How? How do you know what square you are in without something to designate where the various combatants are? Sure, you can use pawns or pebbles or dice instead of figures, but you need a grid and something. If you claim you do not, please inform us.
daggeroflath 04-27-07, 10:45 AM	How? How do you know what square you are in without something to designate where the various combatants are? Sure, you can use pawns or pebbles or dice instead of figures, but you need a grid and something. If you claim you do not, please inform us. We don't use miniatures but we use all the standard miniature rules. Basically we take a lot of care in our descriptions and verbally/mentally map out the room so that we all know where everyone is and can anticipate when an action would provoke an AoO or whichever other complex circumstances come up. Sometimes if confusion crops up or things start getting really complicated, I'll draw a diagram on a sheet of paper, but otherwise we play without minis. However earlier on today I was considering trying out minis in my next game, I have more than enough heroes quest and warhammer pieces to represent most things and it might make things a lot easier. I was actually planning on starting a thread asking for peoples' opinions on this.
Solik 04-27-07, 10:58 AM	Doing it mentally is the same thing as using minis, except it's harder to keep track of, and you're more likely to make mistakes.