Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haml337 01-14-06, 05:42 PM	As a new DM into 3.5, I know little about the mechanics or what is and is not broken. The players I'll be running are rules lawyers and mechanics lovers, and spend a good deal of time lurking on the CO board. What books, classes, races, feats, abilities are just flat out "no" regardless of DM, nation or player? What material do you want to keep out of the players' hands more than a Call of Cthulhu GM never allowing the PCs a copy of the Necronomicon? In Shadowrun (3e), I've taken on the suggestion of restricting, at character gen, anything with a rating of "5 or lower" and and availability of "8 or less." Are there guidelines like this for your D&D game? I don't feel like being ambushed by my players...
TheChilliGod 01-14-06, 05:52 PM	12th level Kobold Psions are out. Believe me, nothing but bad news. Goliaths with the Monkey Grip feat don't work. Never allow Hulking Hurlers or Frenzied Bezerkers, especially any that are Half-Ogres. Be very wary with a Master of Many forms... And note that you cannot use Multishot and Rapid Shot at the same time.
DmMagnus 01-14-06, 06:01 PM	If you are new to 3.5 edition I would suggest to go only core or atleast NO Thirdparty books. Always keep in mind: Weapons can not be enchanted with a permanent first level spell called "true strike". Keep away from wierd and races like half-celestial bonedevils and warforged zombies:P
DragonLord101 01-14-06, 06:05 PM	If you allow the players to use those races that are quite powerful, make sure you uber up your NPC's too... I have no issues with players going different races when I am playing epic games, but otherwise try to keep the races to PHB or other races no more than 2 level adjustment. Some character mechanics can try to pull the wool over your eyes, or just don't know what they are talking about (more often the case), so make sure you double check their character thoroughly before play, or just after the first session.
DragonLord101 01-14-06, 06:10 PM	If you are new to 3.5 edition I would suggest to go only core or atleast NO Thirdparty books. Always keep in mind: Weapons can not be enchanted with a permanent first level spell called "true strike". Keep away from wierd and races like half-celestial bonedevils and warforged zombies:P Lmao, yeah, someone has tried that before... they also tried to have it on their weapon to cast like a wand as a perminent feature... NO CHANCE!!! Hehe, ya, multiple templates can be stupid, and really not within the rules any way... don't be tricked into allowing that sort of rubbish! :D
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-14-06, 06:17 PM	12th level Kobold Psions are out. Believe me, nothing but bad news. So are 5th level Kobold Wizards for that matter. Never allow any build that came from these boards. Never.
Conshey 01-14-06, 06:27 PM	remember that keen and improved critical don't stack try to anticipate what they're going for, before they ask Case and Point: I am a rules monkey, i know that my DM wants to restrict me from a certian thing until later in the campaign, but i want it now, so i use a spell to get my way, but i know that the DM will counter it, so i ask the right questions in the right order to fill the constraints of the spell, and then pop it up in front of him. you must watch out for this, the rule monkeys will try this almost all the time, but if you can't counter this, use bigger monsters to intimidate them, it works for a while as a beginer DM. Worked for me, Conshey
Lord Ian Stark 01-14-06, 06:52 PM	What books, classes, races, feats, abilities are just flat out "no" regardless of DM, nation or player? There is no such thing. As others have said, I suggest you use the 3 core rule books only, until you learn the game. Especially if you're DMing for experienced players. What material do you want to keep out of the players' hands more than a Call of Cthulhu GM never allowing the PCs a copy of the Necronomicon? No such thing comes to mind. Just make sure they give you a photo copy of the class/feat/race/ability/magic item/etc... if you don't have the book it's in so you understand what it is. In Shadowrun (3e), I've taken on the suggestion of restricting, at character gen, anything with a rating of "5 or lower" and and availability of "8 or less." Are there guidelines like this for your D&D game? Outside of going by the rules for character creation I don't think so. You can as a DM put limits on what the characters can select such as only the 3 core rulebooks. Also you determine what level the party starts at, not them. I don't feel like being ambushed by my players... This will happen with the 3 core rule books if you don't understand how to play. Perhaps you should have one of the experienced D&D guys DM so you can learn the game before actually trying to running it.
Rez 01-14-06, 07:10 PM	1. What's wrong with a Kobold lvl 5 Wizard? Its legit! :) 2. Master of Many Forms can be broken. I actually almost made a Elf Druid 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10 for a Epic game *grins* but made a Grey Elf Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Archmage 5 instead. (I had fun....) :P 3. I wouldn't allow any really 'strange' races. Or odd templates stacked. There's very few races I allow besides the basic ones. 4. Be good to not allow 'odd' multiclassing situations (like...someone is a 3rd level fighter. They go to 4th level and want to go wizard.) Something like that-have them train in game for it. (like a apprentice). 5. Don't allow Undead PCs.
Rhomphaia 01-14-06, 07:35 PM	As a new DM into 3.5, I know little about the mechanics or what is and is not broken. The players I'll be running are rules lawyers and mechanics lovers, and spend a good deal of time lurking on the CO board. What books, classes, races, feats, abilities are just flat out "no" regardless of DM, nation or player? What material do you want to keep out of the players' hands more than a Call of Cthulhu GM never allowing the PCs a copy of the Necronomicon? In Shadowrun (3e), I've taken on the suggestion of restricting, at character gen, anything with a rating of "5 or lower" and and availability of "8 or less." Are there guidelines like this for your D&D game? I don't feel like being ambushed by my players... I also suggest keeping things to the core rulebooks. Also, only allow PHB races and classes...and to avoid headaches, makes spiked chains rare or nonexistant in your game. All of these will severely cut out most of anything the CO boards can produce. Still, watch out for clerics and druids. Also, about Shadowrun, I thought those were rules when purchasing gear for character generation anyway, except that the rataing was limited to 6.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-14-06, 08:07 PM	If they start to reach for the Book of Exhalted Deeds, you should reach for your player appreciation bat.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-14-06, 08:10 PM	I don't allow any PrCs or feats without prior approval. I reserve the right to change any PrC to my liking. Such changes will be discussed with the player during character creation, so they don't spend timelearning a Prc they might no longer want. As long as you aren't abusing any infinite loops, I'm probably going to allow it.
Cymraegmorgan 01-14-06, 08:11 PM	If they start to reach for the Book of Exhalted Deeds, you should reach for your player appreciation bat. And use it liberally on the soft spot on their skull.
ChrisTheS 01-14-06, 08:36 PM	If they start to reach for the Book of Exhalted Deeds, you should reach for your player appreciation bat. Especially if they are a monk, and express an interest in 'Vow of Poverty'.
jagraham 01-14-06, 08:50 PM	I'm on the core only bandwagon too. Before starting, I recommend that you let your players know that because you are new to DM'ing D&D, you want to focus your efforts on executing the basics correctly and putting together a good story. Trying to keep up with the contents of books you don't have and tailoring adventures to exploit player weaknesses takes away time, and the campaign would suffer. Keeping it simple does not mean characters need to be weak. You can allow a more generous attribute allocation, bonus feat, or other goodies to compensate for keeping "in the box".
Bob Loblaw 01-14-06, 10:46 PM	I suggest a slightly different approach. While everyone has their reasons for saying "No," I suggest figuring out how and when to say "Yes." What I mean is that you should start with Core only. Then, as the players grow and your knowledge of the game improves, take each new addition on a case-by-case basis. Don't allow entire books. Allow small additions from those books. You may not end up with the entire book being allowed, but you could end up with some interesting characters or ideas. Let your players know that even if you allow any material (Core or not), you reserve the right to change said material for the purposes of game balance and fun for your campaign. For myself, I allow every book that WotC has put out to be used in some manner. If someone came to me and asked if they could use Star Wars material in the game, I would probably start at "No." If, however, they said that they really liked the way the Bounty Hunter prestige class was written and would like to know if I could help them make it fit into the game, I might say "Yes." Look at each situation individually rather than sweeping generalizations and you could find some fun surprises.
Didge 01-15-06, 12:50 AM	Two Feats I don't allow in my game are: Vow of Poverty, and Leadership. Both are incredibly powerful, and both are Feats I'd rather not deal with. VoP is insanely powerful in a low-magic world, and Leadership can be abused if the Player is allowed to roll up their cohort and minions. I also agree that sticking with straight Core books is a must. Later, after you've gotten a handle on DM'ing, should you open pandora's box and allow outside material in. I'm not saying there isn't soem good stuff out there, I'm just saying that with power creep it'll begin to show quite apparently if you let it in immediately. Always tell the Players that you have the right to remove something that is obviously over-powered. My personal house-rule is that if they've discovered a combo/Feat/Skill/Etc. abuse that it'll work that once, and then we need to sit down and discuss it. At which, most of the time means it'll be removed, or tweaked back down to acceptable levels. Also, a note: If you allow PrC's, I suggest that if one is taken that it must be taken completely before one can jump into another PrC. Too many power-builds need too many PrC's to be truly effective. Limiting the Players to finish their PrC's is a way to slow down the insanity (so-to-speak). That's about it. Other than explaining to them that the goal is for everyone at the table to have fun, especially the individual running the show. Because if they aren't the game's doomed.
Bayushi_Tamaro 01-15-06, 02:09 AM	I went about my first 3.5 DM try completely different than everyone else. I allowed anything and everything. Anything! I let them lie, cheat, steal...well, maybe not steal, but you get the point. Then, as the game progressed, I began to learn how the rules worked and how I could counteract them with logic and the rules of the game. I knew the first campaign wouldn't last long and I did not tell my players of this small fact. I let them use me and abuse me and get their way, but I was learning what I should and shouldn't do. I let them have the Book of Exalted Deeds and let them use anything in it, but I was wise in getting a book cover for my Book of Vile Darkness. My players never knew half of the stuff they were fighting. My NPCs had powerful things and items that I began to use against them. They believed that their 16 and 17th level characters were almost gods. They weren't... Two of them were actually addicted to drugs, one of them was a werewolf, and the last one was actually dead, but didnt know it (I gave him a magic ring that allowed him to not sleep or eat at all, he never knew the difference). By the end of the campaign, I was very wise in the ways of abusing the rules and how to deal with them. There are a lot of classes and feats that are powerful, but there is always a way to counteract them. One character was a monk with Vow of Poverty. He had an AC of 45 without armor. He couldn't be touched, but he had other weaknesses. After two sessions, he lost his vow but I did not tell him he lost it. With Leadership, I dont let them make their followers and cohorts, but if he wants to use and abuse them, let him or her do it. Then, have the followers start meeting a grizzly and horrible fate, which lowers his Leadership score to the point that no one would even want to be around him...even the other players! Just finding the balance in your game is the hardest part of DMing a game. Do not let them push you into it, ease into the position yourself. You will enjoy it more that way. Good luck! Bayushi Tamaro Scorpion Clan Champion
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-15-06, 02:38 AM	Leadership can be abused if the Player is allowed to roll up their cohort and minions. This is your problem right here. Why would you let them roll up thier cohorts?! You don't let them roll up thier favorite shopkeepers, why would you let them roll up other NPCs?
Fixxxer 01-15-06, 04:12 AM	5. Don't allow Undead PCs. Correction: Feel free to allow undead PCs (if it fits in your campaign), but be sure to enforce the fact that there is no -1 to -9 grace peroid prior to death. Undead are destroyed when they reach 0hp. If they start to reach for the Book of Exhalted Deeds, you should reach for your player appreciation bat. Gots me one of those too. It's a cinderblock on a rope.
Solidcobra 01-15-06, 05:41 AM	1: No psionics. no reason. no arguments. i just don't like them. that's my world and my thing. Disagree? you know where the door is. bye, have fun. 2: No cut and paste of already existing powerful builds. 3: Nothing custom or third party. Custom things MIGHT be allowed if they are created WITH me and my help and if they fit the feel well. 4: Don't presume i'm stupid. I'm not. That's what i boot people for, if they don't change after one warning. So far, i haven't had to boot anyone.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-15-06, 05:43 AM	What is this book of "Exhalted" deeds you people speak of? I've never heard of it. There IS a book of "EXALTED" deeds, but "Exhalted" isn't even a word. (I have no clue why people keep putting an "h" in "exalted", it's not even pronounced with an "h".)
Tytalus 01-15-06, 07:19 AM	Without sufficient experience, I'd argue that by simply asking for a 'ban list' you are not going to prevent experienced optimizers to surprise you. As a nice GM, I'd therefore also recommend sticking to core for a bit. Note that there are some balance issues with core as well. Especially in the higher levels, PC of the most powerful classes (druid, cleric, wizard) will be considerably more powerful than others, especially the weak ones (e.g., fighter). I therefore recommend planning a low-level game for now (levels 3-8 maybe). If you do want to offer more flexibility and plan to allow, say, all WoTC rules, you should check the CO board's famous builds (click through the two stickes there) so you can recognize a Pun Pun, Cheater of Mystra, or Supermount before it sneaks into your campaign. I personally disagree that banning certain specific books is a good solution. The Book of Exalted Deeds, the Psionics Handbook, etc. are hardly broken. Certain specific rules can be powerful if combined with other optional rules, but similar power levels can be had with core-only builds. Core-only is a very reasonable choice, especially for a new DM. I'd rather trust my fellow players in that they appreciate your situation and have a balanced game in their best interest. If you do plan on banning specific rules, I'd follow Dain's suggestion to remove the Leadership feat as it's a challenge both for player and DM, and can detract from roleplaying. There IS a book of "EXALTED" deeds, but "Exhalted" isn't even a word. What an astute observation. Note that it has been misspelled only once, and merely quoted thereafter.
DevilKiller 01-15-06, 07:39 AM	The Book of Exhalted Deeds contains feats and spells for characters from Boston.
Nidair 01-15-06, 10:48 AM	What I would never like to see again is the Natural Spell feat. It's illogical, unflavorful, overpowered, and without any drawbacks. Bah.
revnk 01-16-06, 01:47 PM	What material do you want to keep out of the players' hands more than a Call of Cthulhu GM never allowing the PCs a copy of the Necronomicon? :thinks: I've never had Call Of Cthulhu players want a copy of the Necronomicon. The usual problem is getting them to open that inconspicuous, normal looking book in the wizard's study. "You read it." "No, you read it." "My SAN is under 30. You read it." "Why'd you take those points in Latin if you never read anything?" "Could be Greek. You read Greek. I can't read Greek." "Then if it's Greek it won't hurt you." "It might have pictures." :evillaugh
grandaustino 01-16-06, 02:07 PM	I would suggest a slightly different approach. Instead of limiting the creativity of your players by restrcting them to only a few classes, try working closely with your players in the character creation process and have them go over their abilities with you to make sure you and the player understand how they work. Just cause your the DM doesn't mean you have to have every book memorized in case a player pulls something out of his rear, otherwise we are all in trouble. But don't be afraid to say no to a build you feel will be out of balance with the rest of the group, or doesn't fit in your campaign. Also remember if a player is using a monster as a race you have to add both the level adjustment and the number of hit dice to determine the character level. I think thats a mistake a lot of DMs make and end up with really overpowered results.
DrMorganes 01-16-06, 02:57 PM	As a new DM into 3.5, I know little about the mechanics or what is and is not broken. The players I'll be running are rules lawyers and mechanics lovers, and spend a good deal of time lurking on the CO board. :weep: In Shadowrun (3e), I've taken on the suggestion of restricting, at character gen, anything with a rating of "5 or lower" and and availability of "8 or less." Are there guidelines like this for your D&D game? As a new DM, stick to the Core Rules - which is defined as the contents of the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual (Monster Manual II and III are NOT core rules, nor is the Fiend Folio, anything beginning with the words "Complete" or "Book of"). Begin the PCs at Level 1 and enforce recommended character wealth at all levels (the chart may be found in the DMG). Implement Prestige Classes according to the guildelines in the DMG. In a nutshell: Prestige classes are optional. The DM controls what PrCs are available, if any. Merely meeting the published prerequisites does NOT mean a player may simply decide to pursue levels in a given prestige class! Prestige Classes are (generally) attached to an organization. This organization can be something as formal as a guild (works well for racially-based PrCs like Dwarven Defender and Arcane Archer, as well as any PrC requiring study or some form of hierarchy) or an informal collection of like-minded individuals (like Shadowdancers). The guild may or may not be publicly known. Likewise the abilities possessed by the guild members may or may not be publicly known. Organizations don't accept just anyone. A roleplaying aspect is encouraged for PrC membership. At a minimum this would include proving one's worthiness for membership via some form of quest or quests. Secret organizations must first be discovered. If the organization is secret, make it part of an ongoing story line to discover the guild (or to be discovered by them) before any talk of membership is even bandied about the table. Leaving an organization has in-game consequences. This is a logical result of the first few bullet items. Depending on the organization and the circumstances surrounding the departure, the PC may remain on friendly terms with the organization or he may be marked for death. Assassins, for example, generally don't take kindly to ex-members... Many DMs (myself included) limit membership in Prestige Classes to ONE, or require full completion of the PrC class progression before taking levels in another. The concept here is that if a prestige class represents a level of dedication to the organization, one cannot easily - if at all - give that dedication to multiple organizations. Lurk on the CO board yourself; forewarned is forearmed, after all. As far as rules lawyers are concerned: a lot of the rules confusion has been cleaned up in 3.5. For those instances where there is a difference of opinion, the only rule that you truly need to know is the one which states YOU (the DM) are in complete control. You don't need to be heavy-handed about it - just let them know that you reserve the right to make ad hoc rulings to keep the game moving, that those rulings will stand for the current session, and disagreements will be handled AFTER the session. Discussion will be had and a final ruling issued before the next session. Past events will NOT be "undone" without extenuating circumstances (like your misunderstanding resulting in a total party wipeout). When you decide to allow non-Core material (and you will likely decide this at some point) either require a photocopy of the material in question or limit availability to books in your personal library. Don't be afraid to run a few simulation encounters to test questionable builds. Put the PC up against a few increasingly difficult encounters (at full health each time) to see how well he stands up. If a Level 8 PC can take out a variety of CR 8 creatures solo, he's probably waaaay too twinked out for practical use. (Specilized PCs aside, of course. Clerics should have an easier time with Undead. Radient Servants of Pelor have a MUCH easier time with Undead ;) )
Edymnion 01-16-06, 03:21 PM	Keeping players under control is easy, as long as you have a backbone. Simple rules to ensure your game does not get out of hand: 1) Start at level 1. You can't munch equipment and feats at lvl 1, you can't get magical items at lvl 1, and it means you as the DM have complete control over the distribution of all gear, magical and otherwise, for the entire game. 2) Core rules only are guarenteed, anything else and you have to run it by me BEFORE you do it. And I don't care if you've been secretly building your entire character towards something for the entire game, if you pop some freaky PrC on me and I say no, the answer is no. Don't whine that you optimized your character for that PrC and how its going to be useless now, you should have told me what you were going for when you started going for it, not when you were ready to take it. 3) Related to #2, all PrC are to be approved or denied as soon as you get the idea that you want to take them. PrC are DM worldbuilding tools. They exist to make the world you play in richer and more interesting. They are not advanced classes that the player has any right to take. I'll be happy to consider anything you want to play, within reason, but if I say that it doesn't exist in my world, then it doesn't exist, and nothing you can do is going to make me change my mind. Deal with it. 4) Enforce roleplaying requirements. Especially on things like PrC. If there is an organization involved, then make sure you put it in there, and that it is something that is always there for the PC, if they like it or not. They want to join up with the "Band of Incredible Ass-Whoopers" guild, and I decide that its in the game, then you can bet that "The Band" is going to hand down missions and rules to that character, which they MUST accept/follow. If they don't, they're kicked out of the guild for not following orders. They wanted to be part of an organization, you make them be a part of the organization. No paying lip service and then going off to do your own thing whenever you want. 5) All mechanical decisions must have an in-character reason for existing. The wizard can't go along acting like the bookworm for the entire game, and suddenly take a level in Barbarian for no in-character reason, just because the player found some kind of Spellcasting Rage feat. I don't mean training, or anything like that, just that it be something that makes sense. This also expands to PrC. They are PRESTIGE classes, not advanced classes. They are defining parts of your character, and the players should not be allowed to "dip" into them for a few levels just to get a class ability and then move on to something else. If you want to be an Arcane Archer, then you *ARE* an Arcane Archer. My personal houserule is that you cannot take a second PrC until you have finished your first one. You can keep taking levels in base classes, but no more PrC until you finish the last one. 6) Enforce the multiclassing penalty for base classes. This will put the brakes on people dipping into multiple classes for special abilities real quick. 7) Roleplaying over Rollplaying. If something can be done in-character equally well using PHB material and some roleplaying as it can with some weird thing from somewhere else, don't allow the something else. This one I apply mainly to playable races. If you want to play an elf that lives in trees, a wild uncivilized elf, or a bookish spellcaster elf, then by god, you use the Elf racial stats in the PHB, and you roleplay the differances. I do not allow subraces. 8) No use of any material for which I do not own the book for. If you just *HAVE* to have something from the latest book, then you need to give me a copy of it, or wait until I get it for myself. I don't mean they let you borrow the book for a few days, but that you as the DM should have a permanent copy of the book, in some form, that you can referance as needed. 9) All dice rolls must be done out in the open. If I don't personally see the results for the roll, they don't count. How strictly this is enforced varies depending on how much I trust the person in question. If I catch you cheating at rolls in my game, I specially bought oversized novelty plush dice that are the size of a softball you roll with for the rest of the night. 10) Keep a copy of their character sheets. If there is any question on if your character can or cannot do something, or if they have something or not, we use *MY* copy of the character sheet. Its up to you to make sure that my copy stays up to date. 11) Use point buy for character ability generation. Rolling for stats means its very easy for one character to have nothing over a 13 (happened to me just a month or two ago), while another character has nothing under a 16 (also seen this happen). The two characters are very unbalanced with each other even before classes and races are taken into account. Point buy means that everybody starts on a level playing field, and can build the character they want to play, instead of what the dice forces them to play. 12) Everybody chips in on the environment. Aka, everybody needs to bring refreshments of some kind, or money to chip in on a pizza. For my games, whoever is providing the place to play at counts that as his contribution. Everybody else better show up with a bag of chips, a 2-liter of something drinkable, or money to order out with.
DragonDeadite 01-16-06, 03:24 PM	Just as something fun you might want to try doing a Race Specific adventure. Like a guy that I'm helping decided to run an all dwarven campaign. I gave him my Races of Stone book, said read up, and now he's got a full campaign with nothing but dwarves and still using a source book rather than just core. That way you don't really have to know ALL of the rules for the different things they can play and specialize in one area. But, not all players like that kind of a game so you kinda have to be with the right group to do that. I'm personaly looking forwerd to an all dwarf campaign!! GO STUMPY!! The one legged dwarven sorcerer with a CHA of 14!! WOOHOO!!!
danielinthewolvesden 01-16-06, 03:29 PM	If they start to reach for the Book of Exhalted Deeds, you should reach for your player appreciation bat. BoED isn't so bad- taken as a whole. However, Book of Vile darkness is RIGHT OUT. 1. No Evils. PC's are part of a group, thus they must be characters that want to join a group and generally go along with the groups best interests. That means no inner-party thefts or PKing. "CN" does not= "Sociopath". Evil partys can be fun, but they are NOT for a new DM, or for anything but mature players. 2.Hulking hurlers and FB are also RIGHT OUT. 3. Non-WotC stuff is out. 4. No psionics. No "Incarnum". (Psionics are Ok, mind you, it's just that it is another system entirely and thus way too much for a new DM to know) 5. No race with an LA of more than +1. (new DMs only)
danielinthewolvesden 01-16-06, 03:40 PM	Two Feats I don't allow in my game are: Vow of Poverty, and Leadership. Both are incredibly powerful, and both are Feats I'd rather not deal with. VoP is insanely powerful in a low-magic world,. Which is easily solved by not having a low-magic world. Low-magic worlds aren't a good idea for new DMs, and far too often they are the mark of Control-phreak or Cheap*ss DMs. VOP is far less powerful than magic items, overall. Leadership- depends on the number of players. Same with druids- not a good class for a game with lots of players. OP? You might find this link useful- or fun, anyway. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436
Iron Kobold 01-16-06, 05:58 PM	Mr. Ham, You might want to change perspective. First find out what your players want. If all they want to do run around and kill stuff…you might want to consider doing just that. Try to stay way from ‘Them VS DM’ and allow them some times where they just roll over your encounters. (But learn from their tactics.) If your players are behaving in an odd way where each is trying to out do the other with their GRAND BUILD PC then be fierce. The best way to reward a player who is acting for the good of the story IS to make them the center of the story. And be firm. Say what you allow and stick to it, BUT also state: “I, the DM, have every right to ban any broken character at a moments notice. Do not take advantage of my generosity. If a character ever hurts the story, it is O-U-T.” A DM job is to tell a story and to make sure the group has fun. How you do it is entirely up to you. If you have players who like to push the line; be prepared to ‘haggle’ but remember D&D is just a game- these guys are your friends.
Ongorth 01-16-06, 06:38 PM	You should never ban anything. Seriously, whenever a player asks if they can use something, don't give a straight answer. Instead, ask them to consider how it will work in the context of the game world and the existing mechanical standards (if you don't have any, replace this with whatever anyone else is playing or standard monsters or something). If they say it fits right in and doesn't step on any toes, then let them. If the player turns out of to be wrong (or a liar) the other players will quickly figure it out and the mechanic can be tweeked until its in line. Or, you'll quickly find out what players place there own enjoyment above that of others and they can be weeded out of your player pool. Leave character creation to the players, both the standards and the regulating of it. They can handle the responsibility and if they can't, they aren't going to be having much fun when the rest of the group decides not to play with them anymore.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-16-06, 09:05 PM	1. What's wrong with a Kobold lvl 5 Wizard? Its legit! :) It can do everything a level 12 Kobold Psion can do, only 7 levels earlier.
CryoSilver 01-16-06, 09:25 PM	I don't outright ban anything except psionics, and only until I get an XPH. Everything non-core needs my personal stamp of approval, in cluding the bother of scanning and summarizing any material I don't own for me (I DM online).
danielinthewolvesden 01-16-06, 10:07 PM	Keeping players under control is easy, as long as you have a backbone. Simple rules to ensure your game does not get out of hand: 1) Start at level 1. You can't munch equipment and feats at lvl 1, you can't get magical items at lvl 1, and it means you as the DM have complete control over the distribution of all gear, magical and otherwise, for the entire game. In general I agree with this list, the exception being #1 here. I like to start my players @2nd level- they are more sruviviable, very few magic items can be bought with 900 gps, and this allows them to play a LA+1 race if they really want to.
danielinthewolvesden 01-16-06, 10:14 PM	oops
grandaustino 01-17-06, 08:20 AM	Why do people feel that it is important to ban material out of hand. I don't understand why as a DM you would be unwilling to work with a player who has a character idea that is not in the core rules. Unless you as the DM just don't want to take the time to familiarize yourself with the characters abilities. Keep in mind the idea of D&D is for everyone to have fun, and if a player would have the most fun playing that Menotaur and you can work it in to your campaign why not let him. I don't see that limiting your players creativity and enjoyment is justified because the DM hasn't done their homework.
carioca 01-17-06, 09:00 AM	stay with core books, start at the 1st level. go slowly 'till you get used to the rules. be assured that you gonna make lots of mistakes, maybe you gonna need to restart your campaign a few times... but that's the way. there's no foolproof campaign for first-time DMs. with time and patience, you'll get used to how the things work.
babysamurai 01-17-06, 11:29 AM	If they start to reach for the Book of Exhalted Deeds, you should reach for your player appreciation bat. Its the Book of Exalted Deeds. We often mock what we don't understand.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-17-06, 02:36 PM	We often mock what we don't understand. We also mock what is completely idiotic.
Haml337 01-17-06, 07:48 PM	And what about the DM? Assume I'm running a core only game. The PCs got the PHB and nothing else to gen with, right? Is it kosher for the DM to pull something out of a book that the PCs have no access to? As an example... If I want to introduce the PCs to an Exalted Monk with Vow of Non-Violence named Martin Luther, for whatever reason... would most players accept that? Is it acceptable by even the gaming community at large?
TRCEttin 01-17-06, 08:03 PM	Monster Manual races when you're starting = bad idea. Once I planned to make a game based on monster races. (this wasn't my first game ever, but it was my first using non-core races.) One guy made a half-iron golem fighter and later attempted to convince me that he could change the shape and position of the iron on his body at will, which could somehow make him run at a speed of about 60+ft. (half-golems can't even run!), a permamently invisible pixie/rogue (actually, this guy is more into RP, so it didn't turn out so bad), a lich with only two caster levels (right now she's asking me if she can have a Colossal shrinking greatsword), a yuan-ti sorcerer (who is sad because he's underpowered compared to the rest of the party), a drow (see above) and a mimic rogue (also more into RP - watching someone turn into a giant d20 and chase an orc down a passage Indiana Jones-style made it worth it). If that doesn't sound like a recipe for fun to you, at least do core races only.
danielinthewolvesden 01-17-06, 08:45 PM	It can do everything a level 12 Kobold Psion can do, only 7 levels earlier. Huh? Why-oh-why are kolbold wizards so powerful? :confused:
Edea 01-17-06, 08:49 PM	Somebody needs to meet Pun_Pun :D .
Edymnion 01-17-06, 09:31 PM	In general I agree with this list, the exception being #1 here. I like to start my players @2nd level- they are more sruviviable, very few magic items can be bought with 900 gps, and this allows them to play a LA+1 race if they really want to.I generally don't allow LA races in the first place, and I definately wouldn't suggest a new DM allow it. Stick to the PHB races exclusively until you know what you're doing. And I usually don't have much combat heavy play at lvl 1, I like give them that level to figure out the personalities of their characters, and get them to lvl 2 through mostly story awards and non-lethal encounters. Little combat for testing out how their builds work, but nothing really life threatening.Huh? Why-oh-why are kolbold wizards so powerful? :confused:Yes, it's a referance to Pun-Pun the Infinite. The character that, completely within the rules, can have an infinite score in every ability, every feat and special ability in the game, plus infinite divine rank. I prefer goblins over kobolds anyway, but thats just me and my Eberron ways.
revnk 01-17-06, 09:57 PM	And what about the DM? Assume I'm running a core only game. The PCs got the PHB and nothing else to gen with, right? Is it kosher for the DM to pull something out of a book that the PCs have no access to? As an example... If I want to introduce the PCs to an Exalted Monk with Vow of Non-Violence named Martin Luther, for whatever reason... would most players accept that? Is it acceptable by even the gaming community at large? I can't speak for the "gaming community at large," but that's essentially how I use Book Of Vile Darkness and certain parts of Lords Of Madness and Libris Mortis. Indeed, that's the way BoVD is explicitly intended to be used, if it's used at all. (Yes, I know some people hate it, and frankly parts of it suck; but there are a few good challenges for players in a campaign with horror themes, such as vile damage and a few villainous PrCs.) And I don't have a problem playing for a referee who is using non-player supplements fairly. (Unfair use would be pulling something out simply to sabotage a player--but a lousy DM can do that with the core books, too, so it's really not a supplements issue.) Mind you, my players have/will gain access to feats, spells, skills and PrCs from LM and LoM, and I work pretty hard to make sure they have ways to deal with anything unbalanced I throw their way (e.g. when placing a monster capable of dealing vile damage into a recent dungeon, I also placed at least two areas on the same level where PCs could heal themselves of it if necessary--which, turned out, it wasn't). The idea that players should have access to everything or that the DM and players should be "equals" is one that mysteriously crept into the game during the years I was away from it, and I still don't understand it. The DM is obliged to be fair and impartial and to guarantee the players a good game--but he's not obliged to play by the same rules. Indeed, the emphasis seems to be reversed: I'll see threads where a DM clearly is playing a competitive game against the players while using the same rules and books, and thinks that's what "fair" means. If I pit my players against a cancer mage, it's not to screw my players--it's so my players can (hopefully) triumph over a foul, disgusting and crazed menace to the innocent. If my players face a creature with aberrant feats, it's so they can defeat a vile and unclean thing. But that's me. I suppose other groups, players and DMs have different expectations. Still, they sometimes baffle and vex me. :raincloud
Molitor 01-17-06, 10:33 PM	Rule #0) The DM is always right. Rule #1) Have Fun. Completely ignore everyone's posts here if you and your players are having fun.