Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FifteenthApostle 04-04-07, 07:13 AM	I'm a long time player looking to DM my first proper game. I'm starting the game at level 1 so it won't come up for a while but I want to make a list of banned spells. The general oppinion I get (both from my group and these boards) is that certain high level spells can totaly break your game if you let them. So I am assembling a list of the most utterly broken, over powered, who needs a party I can kill anything of my CR +5 by my self without any help, kind of spells. My list so far is as follows: 1. Gate is modified. You can still use it for planar travel, but NO you cannot use it to call in creatures twice as powerful as you are. 2. Forcecage is banned. No save, no SR, no way to escape unless you're a caster. How bout just No. 3. Timestop is Banned Banned and Double Banned. If I have to explain to you why, then I recomend you get professional help. 4. Mordenkainen's Disjunction is modified. It cannot destroy artifacts. "aww come on i'm sure hextor's not looking :evillaugh ". This is the list so far, i'm open to suggestions. Keep in mind that i'm only looking for the most utterly :banghead: spells, not ones that are just kind of annoying in certain circumstances.
Radijs 04-04-07, 07:19 AM	Nice, insulting me before I even reply. You're off to a good start. So why do you ban time stop?
FifteenthApostle 04-04-07, 07:41 AM	What part of 'get professional help' don't you understand Radijs?
Cartigan 04-04-07, 07:57 AM	Nice, insulting me before I even reply. You're off to a good start. So why do you ban time stop? Because the idea of chronomancy is broken?
Tichondrus 04-04-07, 08:00 AM	Personally II've realized that no spell is broken for the followings: _When you can cast them, enemies can get around them quite easly and/or have enough power to almost duplicate it. _If you can't control the field in the first turn of the battle, you are a dead mage _If you can control the field and not finish the battle in 2-3 turns, you are a dead mage either way _The ONLY balance meassure is the DM, if he wants to balance something out, he can, withow banning any spell, there are things that not even a wish can get you off.* _Mages can cast one or two of their max level spells a day, so it's as simple as sending a lot of encounters each day, with 4 it should be ok since the caster becomes pointless after the seccond one letting the warrior and rogue shine from then and on. Note that what follows is a list of "broken spells" according to FifteenthApostle's definition, not mine. Now for spells: _Wish. You can get way more exp than what you used on it and go solo anything with it. _Miracle. You can get twice as much...and not even expend the experience. _Trap soul. You can get ANYTHING to work for you, just imprison it, bind it to you, voilá. _Permanency. Depends on waht the DM allows to be made permanent. _Mordenkainen's disjunction. You can destroy artifacts.... _Wall of force. Same as forcecage, lower level, easier to use for a low level mage with an IQ above 20 _Dominate person. See Trap soul. _Dominate masses. See Trap Soul. _Sleep. A rigged spell at lower levels. More to come. Opinions FifteenthApostle so I know if I go on or not?
FifteenthApostle 04-04-07, 08:14 AM	Wish/Miracle i'm currently not sure about. Permanency is one of those case by case things. With Disjunction I was planning to ban the destroy artifacts function (just ruins the chance for a destroy the artifact campaign). I will add it to the list shortly. The rest I would look into but it's past midnight where I am so I just can't be bothered right now.
Tichondrus 04-04-07, 08:32 AM	Some more adds: _Shapechange. "You can be anything you want to be, just turn yourself into anything that you could ever be!" <- freddy mercury. _Prismatic Sphere. Cast it on an enemy, makes forcecage look like a puppy. _Dominate Monster: Read Dominate Person. _Power Word Kill: Same as sleep, but on higher levels, and just like sleep, becomes useless after a few more levels (like 10 more ._.). Just a question, what will you do with all the cleric domains that have those spells in their repertories?
Radijs 04-04-07, 08:34 AM	Why are you calling me insane for not knowing why time stop would be so broken? Its very rude of you to do so. Disjunction is worse. 1 save is all that stands between you and losing all your magical gear. The artefacts business isn't that important compared to that.
Soluphobe 04-04-07, 09:20 AM	Creeping Cold Come on, its almost impossible to apply metamagic to that thing and not break it! A second level spell that can be augmented to do ~50,000 damage? I'd have to look it up, but even the Tarrasque might get hurt by that! Wall of [energy] With a creative and persuasive player, these things can be TBBEGKers if you let 'em (circle form, 2 inch diameter, centered on Bob's head, focused inward...) Radjis: I think the reason Time Stop is considered 'broken' is because you can cast it, buff yourself like crazy, summon a few things, then come out instantly. I wouldn't know, as casters I've always been a blaster who took Meteor Swarm.
penchant 04-04-07, 09:26 AM	Why are you calling me insane for not knowing why time stop would be so broken? Its very rude of you to do so. Disjunction is worse. 1 save is all that stands between you and losing all your magical gear. The artefacts business isn't that important compared to that. Each item saves separately as an attended object. Its not an all or nothing save. Your spell resistance is one roll, however. Timestop is not broken. It is a 9th level spell. While it is possible to harm other people with it, you can't use instantaneous offensive magic with it which eliminates all your big damage spells. I use time stop (when playing my high level wizard) to emergency buff myself, summon some more meat shields and maybe leave one or two duration surprises for my enemies, like incendiary cloud. However this only saves me a few rounds of casting without getting whacked upon. I still have less than 100 hit points. I would gladly trade Timestop to have Chain Contingency back.
Millennium 04-04-07, 09:35 AM	If this is going to be your first time as a DM, don't ban any spells yet. Get a feel for how the basic system works unaltered, and then start adding your own personal touches.
mcnoo 04-04-07, 09:46 AM	So basically you want to ban the bulk of 9th level spells. The reason they're so powerful is because people who can cast these are the pinnacle of the magic arts, at these levels, the laws of physics bow to the characters and quietly shuffle out of the way muttering apologies. This is what wizards are all about, no one should still be pulling rabbits from hats at epic levels.
icuall 04-04-07, 10:06 AM	You also have to keep in mind that most spells have a counter strategy that can be applied to keep it in check and balanced. Perhaps someone could start a thread on that for the benefit for DMs. My opinion... Time Stop is a 9th level spell... best of best, it should be very powerful. Also, another wizard casting Time Stop makes your the opponent wonder what they are doing...the fun is just beginning.
starfire311 04-04-07, 10:15 AM	spells banned IMC Wraith Strike Spells on watch list Assay resistance. Currently everything eslse goes.
RobbyPants 04-04-07, 10:20 AM	One nice thing that I like about the Complete Arcane is that there's a several page section toward the back for helping DMs deal with certain types of problematic spells (charms/compulsions, fly, teleport, divinations, invisibility, etc...). Granted, a lot of spells people have listed do not fall into these catagories (and some of them are truely broken), it's still nice to read through that section. When a lot of DMs have a knee-jerk reaction to a certain spell, it's often because they haven't fully thought of reasonable ways to counter it. Again, this doesn't fix every problem with every spell, but I'd highly recomend reading it to anyone who hasn't. :whatsthis
Steely_Dan 04-04-07, 10:21 AM	spells banned IMC Wraith Strike Spells on watch list Assay resistance. Yes, I have heard much hatred towards this spell. What does assay resistance do, basically, and what source is it from?
Pfisiar 04-04-07, 10:26 AM	I fail to see how Forcecage is broken. Every casting of it requires a sacrifice of 1500 gold worth of Ruby dust. I don't see why the Disjunction should be banned or altered, given the fact that chances of destroying an artifact is remote to say the least and there is at least a good chance that the caster who destroys the artifact will suffer greatly.
Tichondrus 04-04-07, 10:30 AM	Guys, I agree with all of you just as much as I can, but mind that he is not asking for advice on what to or to not do, let him ruin his game for mages, then he'll realize he was wrong, trial and mistake is the best way.
DrStupid 04-04-07, 10:34 AM	Spells to ban... Evocation spells - Magic power comes out of these guys fingers and just kills stuff?! Wow, banned. Illusion spells - You can cast a spell and create a completely realistic image that can kill stuff!!!11!!eleven. Banned! Enchantment spells - What do you mean he can take a monsters mind and make it his slave?! Banned. Necromany spells - Undead, nuff said. Banned. Abjuration spells - ZOMG! HE CAN BE INVINCIBLE?!?!?!? BANT! Conjuration spells - OMGWTFBBQ, monsters from thin air! Banz0r3d. Diviniation spells - He knows the lottery numbers in advance?! THAT'S SOOOO BANNED! Transmutation - Not enough words for how borken that is. In fact I think I'll just get rid of magic entirely, at least mages can still hit stuff with thier sticks... though the more I think about it the more that sounds kinnda broken too. :(
hotoro 04-04-07, 10:39 AM	Altering spells, especially spells from just the PHB is one thing but banning them is quite another. So your players can abuse a spell? Big deal. Work around it. Once they are that level, enemies are as likely to have time stop as they are not to mention the mass of other abilities their opponents should have by now. To me, this is akin to the players telling the DM that they cannot throw certain monsters and/or traps at them because they are too dangerous. Powerful spells are meant to be just that. Is time stop, disjunction, forcecage, etc. broken... sure. But just opting to remove them from your game as opposed to learning to work with and around them is not the answer IMO. Players like to use these spells on account of their power, they build characters up with their eyes on these spells from the start. Taking them out of the game has a negative impact on the level advancement of the players, particularly your arcane spellcasters (when there is no point to reaching 20th level because all the cool spells are gone... well hopefully your players are mature enough to not think this way but if they do... problem) and it takes away from the impact of characters that should be stopping time, possessing their enemies, etc. Casters at that level, not to mention members of other classes, are meant to shape the game world just as much as they shape the current situation. Limitting them like this takes away from that. As usual, I would like to point out that the opinions here are not meant to offend anyone. They are merely opinions... if you wish to refute them do so kindly:) Thank You -Hotoro
Tichondrus 04-04-07, 10:41 AM	You know, you should check my sig doctor
CoolPirate 04-04-07, 10:54 AM	Guys, why ban certain spells? just throw in a ingenuous Villian with an extra high CR. Your the DM, if you realize that your player likes the Time stop spell way to much, create a magic item on your bad guy that reverses the effect of any time spell in a 100ft radius, so you wizard gets frozen for a while. If your players are smart enough to use these loop-hole you got to be smarter and use you DM power. They players are limited by the rules, You ARNT! PS. Its always important as DM to keep you PC happy, but I know from experience that PC also love challenge and a good twist!
starfire311 04-04-07, 11:11 AM	Yes, I have heard much hatred towards this spell. What does assay resistance do, basically, and what source is it from? Assay resistance was in complete mage originally and reprinted in spell compendium I believe. in a nut shell, as a swift action, for 1 round per level, you gain a +10 to caster level checks for overcoming SR of a target creature.
Mystyc 04-04-07, 11:29 AM	no one should still be pulling rabbits from hats at epic levels. 'Cept fighters.
wonlee76 04-04-07, 11:35 AM	My Ban List: Wraithstrike: There's several threads about the potential abusiveness of this spell. This is banned more on a PCs won't use it, DM's won't use it on their power attacking dragons. Modified List: Avasculate and Mass Avasculate (Spell Compendium): A no save spell for losing 1/2 your current HP just bugs the heck out of me. So I put a save for 1/4 damage at least. Still good since its such a high level spell a Fort Save has a decent shot of failing anyways. (Maybe not so overpowered for a standard 20 levels but I play epic games where you will start bumping into baddies with 500 hp+ and this spell becomes godly in those encounters). Gate: As written, it could be used as a no save, die spell. Open up a gate right underneath your opponent and watch them fall to the Plane of (insert hostile environment). Reflex save permitted if the spell is used in that manner to avoid falling into the gate. The calling feature is limited to creatures with equal HD as the caster. Disjunction: Players vote on whether to ban this completely or make it an "Auto-Dispel" spell which also suppresses magical items worn by target for 1d4 rounds. Shapechange/Polymorph/Etc.: Not so much of a modification but rather a strict enforcement on the fluff text that says you have to be familiar with the form you're shifting into. This helps the DM maintain some control over the spell especially considering some monsters may not even exist in the DM's world and as such, there's no reason for the PC's to be able to polymorph/shapechange into it. There may be other spells that are banned or modified but I run across them on a case by case basis. I don't get why the OP thinks Timestop must be banned. It has enough restrictions in it that makes it a tad bit harder to abuse. No instantaneous damage effects. Caster doesn't know how long the timestop lasts (unless its been maximized of course) so no laying down several delayed blast fireballs that will blow up as soon as the timestop ends. My group uses Timestop to lay down several buff spells in one round. I guess there may be more abusive combos with it but my players haven't used those combos yet so I haven't felt a need to ban or modify it.
Kursk 04-04-07, 12:31 PM	Seems like the OP just wants to insult and not consult. Waste of a thread.
HermitIX 04-04-07, 12:57 PM	Sorry, but I REALLY don’t know why Time Stop would be banned. Why are you banning it?
danielinthewolvesden 04-04-07, 02:22 PM	Sorry, but I REALLY don’t know why Time Stop would be banned. Why are you banning it? Oh here, I agree with the OP But the Psionic version is just as bad) Player has his Wizard cast Timestop- rest of players go out for a pizza. Round two- Timestop- naptime for rest of players. Every time I have seen it used it sucks about 15-30 minutes of table time,which is unfair to the rest of the players. It is just plain rude. Forcecage is laughable, since they can still cast spells. Blasphemy/etc needs to be banned- there is no defence. Demons casts it, his buddies attack. Next round, repeat until everyone is dead. Wriathstrike is a perfect example of a spell that WotC did not think through. For a normal Wizard it is not so bad, but for a shapechanging spellcaster or a dragon it's a TPKer.
Witch 04-04-07, 02:38 PM	To the OP: - Time Stop is not broken. It speeds you up for some time (it doesn't actually alter time, it just alters your own speed, despite the misleading name). It's a ninth level spell slot that offers some buffing rounds - big deal. The spell is fine. - You nerf Mordenkainen, but you nerf the wrong part of it. Remove the function that actually disjoins items, and demand a dispel check (with no maximum bonus) to dispel spells. That will make it more balanced. - Your Gate ruling is fine. - Forcecage costs a lot of money to cast, so its power is understandable. It's still a very powerful spell, perhaps too powerful. Instead of banning it, though, just add the ability for a reflex save to get out of the area in time. _Wish. You can get way more exp than what you used on it and go solo anything with it. _Miracle. You can get twice as much...and not even expend the experience. How? _Trap soul. You can get ANYTHING to work for you, just imprison it, bind it to you, voilá. How? How can you force people whose soul is in a gem of yours to work for you? On another note, this requires a failed save and a focus tuned to that person. _Permanency. Depends on waht the DM allows to be made permanent. Dispel Magic. Gone is your permanency. _Dominate person. See Trap soul. _Dominate masses. See Trap Soul. Ever heard that they get a Will save? And that immunity to compulsions is a single Protection from Evil away? Or that you could just buy a mind blank item? _Sleep. A rigged spell at lower levels. True, but it's also the only useful one at lower levels.
green_yawgmoth 04-04-07, 02:38 PM	So, you start out by insulting me before I even post, then ban a spell that has been nerfed to near uselessness, then alter a spell that really needs fixing only by taking out it's most useless and potentially deadly (to the caster) effect? Wow, you're some DM. Where do I sign up for this game, Maladomini? :rolleyes: The only thing TS is good for nowadays is buffing yourself and summon monster spells. The latter is only actually useful if you've spent nigh all your feats on making summon spells worth it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Witch 04-04-07, 02:39 PM	Blasphemy/etc needs to be banned- there is no defence. Let's see: Spell Resistance. Spell Immunity. Staying at range. Being closer than 5 Hit Dice towards your opponent. I'd say Blasphemy isn't that bad.
danielinthewolvesden 04-04-07, 03:02 PM	Let's see: Spell Resistance. Spell Immunity. Staying at range. Being closer than 5 Hit Dice towards your opponent. That last does not help with the "one round stun" effect.
AntiDjinn 04-04-07, 03:03 PM	Mordenkainen's DJ is often a DM's reset button for the game when he realizes he has given the party too many items or the wrong items. Also used by DM's just to hose players who have permanent spells or who depend on buffs and items. Players rarely want to use it because it destroys treasure (killing that guy isn't the point, getting all his stuff is). Either way, one wonders why Mordenkainen researched it and put it into general circulation when from his write-up he would be one of the prime targets. I would also like to ask Mr. M. if it ever irkes him that he spent weeks researching that spell, yet sorcerers just wake up one day knowing it. Gate only calls a creature, but does not compel it to serve unless it is under your hit dice. It probably should not provide control in any case because it lacks the [compulsion] and [mind-affecting] descriptors. If you call a Solar and ask it to tie your shoes then it will probably just turn and leave. It may hit you with a quest that furthers the cause of goodness just for the insult and because you probably called it away from whatever good deed it was doing. Anyone who thinks it is a good idea to summon something you can't control just hoping it will do you a favor should reread the Elric books.
mlund 04-04-07, 03:20 PM	Blasphemy / Holy Word is truly an awful spell. It is way too easy for a DM or PC to break it over his or her knee to the tune of the auto-paralysis plateau with the right caster-level bumps. Having an encounter open with "you're all paralyzed, no saves" followed up with successive CdGs really isn't a game worth playing no matter which side does it. I'm not saying you need to ban it, but it isn't the kind of spell you should expect to integrate cleanly with the rest of the available game mechanics. - Marty Lund
AaronDireBear 04-04-07, 03:30 PM	Now for spells: _Wish. You can get way more exp than what you used on it and go solo anything with it. Wrong. _Miracle. You can get twice as much...and not even expend the experience. Not really. _Trap soul. You can get ANYTHING to work for you, just imprison it, bind it to you, voilá. Sure, as long as you bar monsters from doing it too. _Permanency. Depends on waht the DM allows to be made permanent. There are monsters with permanent true seeing, why not ban them too? _Mordenkainen's disjunction. You can destroy artifacts.... And your point being? _Wall of force. Same as forcecage, lower level, easier to use for a low level mage with an IQ above 20 Disintigrate. D-Door. _Dominate person. See Trap soul. Saving throws. _Dominate masses. See Trap Soul. Again, you rpoint is? _Sleep. A rigged spell at lower levels. Oh please! Oh yeah everyone is asleep im GOD MODING! You sound liek someone who wants DnD to be more like WoW
AaronDireBear 04-04-07, 03:31 PM	Wish/Miracle i'm currently not sure about. Permanency is one of those case by case things. With Disjunction I was planning to ban the destroy artifacts function (just ruins the chance for a destroy the artifact campaign). I will add it to the list shortly. The rest I would look into but it's past midnight where I am so I just can't be bothered right now. Then have your "destroy the artifact quest" at lower levels than 17+....DUH! Besides, it has what, a 1% chance of working? and if it succeeds you canb lose all your powers.
starfire311 04-04-07, 03:32 PM	Let's see: Spell Resistance. Spell Immunity. Staying at range. Being closer than 5 Hit Dice towards your opponent. I'd say Blasphemy isn't that bad. Blasphemy et al has some issues, in one mod, which will remain nameless, the BBEG has blasphemy at CL 30, and is a CR 23 critter, while the party is at APL 17-29... this is an instant 1st round TPK. yes the mod was changed to make him CL 20, but that was only because of blasphemy.
AaronDireBear 04-04-07, 03:37 PM	Assay resistance was in complete mage originally and reprinted in spell compendium I believe. in a nut shell, as a swift action, for 1 round per level, you gain a +10 to caster level checks for overcoming SR of a target creature. Considering the INSANE and GOD AWFUL SR that most creatures in the ELH have, its notborken at all, its a balancing factor.
Witch 04-04-07, 03:44 PM	Blasphemy et al has some issues, in one mod, which will remain nameless, the BBEG has blasphemy at CL 30, and is a CR 23 critter, while the party is at APL 17-29... this is an instant 1st round TPK. yes the mod was changed to make him CL 20, but that was only because of blasphemy. CL 30 on a CR 23 is bad design. On another note, preparing for a battle against a fiend (which is most likely to have it) should always include Greater Spell Immunity against Blasphemy.
starfire311 04-04-07, 03:52 PM	Considering the INSANE and GOD AWFUL SR that most creatures in the ELH have, its notborken at all, its a balancing factor. oh, I get it, that is why they made a 4th level spell, it is to combat Epic level encounters, why bother giving cretures SR, if you then have a spell that makes SR trivial, that is my biggest beef with the spell, it is just about a must have, this was the same problem with 3.0 Haste.
starfire311 04-04-07, 03:59 PM	CL 30 on a CR 23 is bad design. On another note, preparing for a battle against a fiend (which is most likely to have it) should always include Greater Spell Immunity against Blasphemy. he was a half-fiend with 30HD, I did a very similar thing for a one shot I ran once, the BBEG was an half-fiend advanced mature adult white dragon with 23HD he was CR 16, the party was 6 level 11s... I realized it as soon as the encounter began, I just decided not to use blasphemy for that encounter.
Praedoran 04-04-07, 04:06 PM	Here's my advice: Don't ban -any- spells. Instead, list down those you think are -exploitable-, not overpowered. Time Stop is powerful, but it's a very straight forward spell. Shapechange is not, it's become so obvious Wizards is putting out the Polymorph: Subschool. Those you find exploitable, errata them to be more limited and note these to your players. There's been a lot of thought put into the power level of each spell, but only if some hole has been exploited does it become game breaking.
Witch 04-04-07, 04:15 PM	Those you find exploitable, errata them to be more limited and note these to your players. Some could be beyond redemption, though. There's been a lot of thought put into the power level of each spell ...right. No, there wasn't. People overestimate designers. Being a designer requires some imagination, and a moderate degree of balance-estimation. Not all designers are as good in the latter part as you'd think (nor the former, actually).
Tichondrus 04-04-07, 08:44 PM	Note of clarification: I'm 100% against spell Baning, in fact I'd add a few thousand more spells or even switch to a spell system like the one in mage the ascention any day of the week I was just responding to the OP on sugestions about what he wanted to do, bad idea to be helpful it seems. To everyone who harassed me (more than once even), have a good day, go play your game, and stop filling threads with disrespectful answers ^^
Kimokeo 04-04-07, 09:52 PM	Prestidigitation - such a broken spell. The taverns are all but empty since the food went bad and the whiskey sour. Ventriloquism - another broken spell. The entire town is heading for the insane aslyum. Everyone is hearing voices.
The Jake 04-04-07, 11:38 PM	So basically you want to ban the bulk of 9th level spells. The reason they're so powerful is because people who can cast these are the pinnacle of the magic arts, at these levels, the laws of physics bow to the characters and quietly shuffle out of the way muttering apologies. This is what wizards are all about, no one should still be pulling rabbits from hats at epic levels. Word. I do ban the Anyspell and Greater Anyspell spells. Anything that can cause infinite loops are also highly frowned upon (not banned outright but players know that if its abused, I beat them up with the PHB).
Ace the Dead 04-05-07, 12:06 AM	My group voted (voted) to ban: Animal Growth: Un-nerfed multi-target Righteous Might on the Wild shaped druid his animal comp. and a d4+1 something nasty (with augment even by 9th level d4+1 animals are bad news), Wall of Thorns (didn't play the encounter that lead to this decision), wraithstrike, bands of steel (like wizards need another save or die, albiet by coup de gras over the next few rounds), and all spells over sixth level (we prefer level 9 pcs over both the higher and the lower level game, this would not be the case in a normal campaign). In particular: blasphemy et al, forcecage, illusory pit, and destruction are viewed as particularly bad (the last two because its die if you fail, and get jacked if you do). You can kill any pre to early epic PC with three clerics with divine metamagic (quicken): six destructions in one round = six save or dies and if you make all the saves 60d6 damage. I've seen a build using only divine spell power from non-core for a lvl 20 character that can use holy word/dictum to kill any 20 hd creature who's not LG without a save, provided that creature get within 60' of him.
Aglardae 04-05-07, 09:02 AM	In my humble opinion, if you need to ban a spell, that means you have lost control of your game. When I see people arguing about level 9 spells I find quite amazing how many of them can reach level 20 that easily and acquire these spells on the spot. Such high level spells should not be granted because they are in the book, but they should require some high level quest to reach them or long researchs, components, and studies of rare forgotten arcane scrolls. Undertaking such quests should even be more fun than actually casting these spells. Finding a NPC able to teach you these spells is highly unlikely (unless you live in the Harry Potter world), very high level NPCs being rare (at least in the World of Greyhawk). And if one does exist I don't think he would relinquish such a powerfull knowledge to someone he barely knows. And lastly, all depends on how you run your world. I run Greyhawk campaigns and I don't think the god Lendor (Prince of Time and Tedium) would enjoy seeing someone messing with Time flow all the time. As for Gate, I don't think neutral gods or good/evil gods would see someone summoning demons/devils or good creatures all the time with a good eye. Evil unique demons or devil would certainly not like seeing someone summoning their minions all the time to do their biddings. After all, you live in a world with an orderly cosmology (At least in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms). Finally in the case your players could eliminate a god with a wave of their hand, then you definitely have lost the control. Aglardae
Witch 04-05-07, 09:08 AM	Such high level spells should not be granted because they are in the book, but they should require some high level quest to reach them or long researchs, components, and studies of rare forgotten arcane scrolls. Undertaking such quests should even be more fun than actually casting these spells. Sorcerers just suddenly know them by leveling up. Wizards are assumed to have developed them during the previous time. Ninth level spells aren't special. And on another note, your "messing with time flow". Time Stop does not mess with time. It messes with you. Also, how does Protection from Evil stop Power Word Kill?
Aglardae 04-05-07, 09:20 AM	Sorcerers just suddenly know them by leveling up. Wizards are assumed to have developed them during the previous time. Ninth level spells aren't special. And on another note, your "messing with time flow". Time Stop does not mess with time. It messes with you. Also, how does Protection from Evil stop Power Word Kill? That's true for the sorceror. But being a wizard doesn't guaranty someone will teach you the spell. It doesn't pop in your spellbook when you level up. Time Stop DOES influence the flow of time for YOU. As for protection from evil, it was a poor attempt at a joke, but understand that some DMs consider that the protection from compulsion effects works for all these types of spell and not only if control is involved (I'm not one of them, but in these DM's campaigns, such interpretation would effectively get you immune at level 1 to a level 9 power word Kill). There have been many discussions on this spell in these forums. Sorry if you didn't catch the joke.
Witch 04-05-07, 09:24 AM	That's true for the sorceror. But being a wizard doesn't guaranty someone will teach you the spell. It doesn't pop in your spellbook when you level up. No, you're assumed to have been developing it on your own during the previous level. Time Stop DOES influence the flow of time for YOU. No it doesn't. Not unless you think Haste does so as well. From the SRD: This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. As for protection from evil, it was a poor attempt at a joke, but understand that some DMs consider that the protection from compulsion effects works for all these types of spell and not only if control is involved (I'm not one of them, but in these DM's campaigns, such interpretation would effectively get you immune at level 1 to a level 9 power word Kill). There have been many discussions on this spell in these forums. Sorry if you didn't catch the joke. There have, but not versus Power Word Kill. It works against Dominate Monster though.
Tichondrus 04-05-07, 09:28 AM	Agreed with Witch except the power word thing that i didnt understand X_X
Aglardae 04-05-07, 09:35 AM	DMG page 198: "A DM can require a wizard to actually spend game time to gain new spells" (in the contrary to divine spellcasters): Thats how I play it in Greyhawk as I consider some high level spells or rare spells (from certain rulebooks) must be either discovered, researched or be taught. As for sorceror, I am not well versed in them as we rarely play them (my players prefer a wizard for its versatility). But I just read on the very same DMG page that, as a variant rule, "you could require that each sorceror contact an intelligent supernatural entity to learn new spells." That how I would play it should a high level sorceror player appear in my campaigns. Thats how I control my game. Aglardae
Witch 04-05-07, 09:41 AM	That may be how you play it, but that doesn't allow you to make the absolute statement that "banning spells means you lost control of the game" and get away with it ;)
Aglardae 04-05-07, 09:59 AM	He he, you're hard with me here. :D I started my original post with "In my humble opinion". But I think this control is necessary in a well designed world and it would ensure bad/poor players wouldn't ruin the game. See it as both consistency and security. But if you stick to the player handbook interpretation you are right. But, hey ! we are DMs aren't we? So our book is the DMG too. And personaly, I don't want to make it THAT easy to my players. What would the Lost Cavern of Tsjocanth be for if not to dig up ancient Suloise arcane lost for centuries (or, for exemple, a supernatural being turned to stone for 2 centuries very happy with you for its release and willing to teach you sorcery from the old day). Nevertheless I still disagree with your Time Stop interpretation (we really need a live forum here or we are going to swarm pointlessly this thread the two of us :) ) as for the God perception of it. But I would have to agree that this spell is in the same line as Haste (no doubt about it). But using a spell granting you one more standard action would certainly call for much leniency in comparison to a spell giving you 1d4+1 rounds of action. During these rounds the world looks frozen for you, hence my interpretation of the gods not being pleased if you do it all the time. Aglardae
Witch 04-05-07, 10:02 AM	But using a spell granting you one more standard action would certainly call for much leniency in comparison to a spell giving you 1d4+1 rounds of action. Actually, Haste doesn't do that anymore :) To be fair, I just don't find ninth level spells as impressive as others. I'm used to playing at Epic Level, and ninth level spells ought to be balanced in the same fashion as fifth or first level spells ought to be. Ofcourse on another power level, but the principle is the same. I apply this even to Epic Spells. On a related note, this leads me to heavily restricting what Wish can do (namely, I am very restrictive on the "greater power" option).
Aglardae 04-05-07, 10:16 AM	Great ! You are just the one I need! We were wondering about haste spell on last week-end session. We always had played this spell granting us a free attack anytime (like in old days) but while reading the player handbook again we noticed it was granting a free attack after a full attack action. Thus we assumed it couldn't affect a character without multiple weapons or under a base attack bonus of + 6 as a simple attack is a standard action and would not qualify for a full round action. Unless we can declare a standard action as a full round action. We were then quite puzzled about it. Did I miss an errata? Please enlignten me on what Haste does now. Thanks Aglardae
Magnus029 04-05-07, 10:23 AM	If a character only has one attack then a single attack is a full round action. Providing the character does not take more than a 5ft step then they are entitled to the extra attack granted by the haste spell.
starfire311 04-05-07, 10:26 AM	Great ! You are just the one I need! We were wondering about haste spell on last week-end session. We always had played this spell granting us a free attack anytime (like in old days) but while reading the player handbook again we noticed it was granting a free attack after a full attack action. Thus we assumed it couldn't affect a character without multiple weapons or under a base attack bonus of + 6 as a simple attack is a standard action and would not qualify for a full round action. Unless we can declare a standard action as a full round action. We were then quite puzzled about it. Did I miss an errata? Please enlignten me on what Haste does now. Thanks Aglardae haste now grants you an aditional attack when you take a full attack action, it also givs you a +1 to attack, AC, and reflex saves, and +30ft speed. Anyone can use the full attack action, even if your BAB is less than +6 and you do not have 2 weapons, it generally just lets you make 1 attack though, just like a standard action. However while ahsted you will get 2 attacks.
Aglardae 04-05-07, 10:28 AM	Thanks guys :) So now that's even better. Is this an errata or a real rule point in the Player Handbook? We didn't find anything regarding the single attack becoming a full round action with a 5 feet move
Steely_Dan 04-05-07, 10:31 AM	The only spells I ban are save or die spells. Well, not really ban, but myself and my players agree not to use them. It's kind of lame to have your 15th level barbarian you've been lovingly playing for two years to go down because of one bad roll, in our opinion. I know people will bring up the fact that resurrecting PC's is easy at that level, but my players and myself somehow feel cheated if are characters have to be raised, like they didn't really make it.
Magnus029 04-05-07, 10:34 AM	I am not sure whether it is writen or implied, but if you do not move (5ft step is part of a full round action) and use all your attacks (even if it is only a single attack) that is a full round action, therefore if you are hasted, you can get the extra attack.
starfire311 04-05-07, 10:38 AM	Thanks guys :) So now that's even better. Is this an errata or a real rule point in the Player Handbook? We didn't find anything regarding the single attack becoming a full round action with a 5 feet move here is the haste spell Transmutation Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects. When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.) A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed. now as to the full attack, it says that inorder to use your extra attacks from twf or high BAB, you must use a full attack, it never says you can not use a full attack if you do not have twf or High BAB.
Magnus029 04-05-07, 10:40 AM	The only spells I ban are save or die spells. Well, not really ban, but myself and my players agree not to use them. I completely agree, I will allow them, but as DM I do not use them. It's kind of lame to have your 15th level barbarian you've been lovingly playing for two years to go down because of one bad roll, in our opinion. Yep, agreed... on the same note, this is why you will never see a Vorpal weapon in my games. I know people will bring up the fact that resurrecting PC's is easy at that level, but my players and myself somehow feel cheated if are characters have to be raised, like they didn't really make it. If a player in my compaign dies, the vast majority of the time players would rather make a new character than have the former character raised. I would be the same way, coming back is just not the same.
Steely_Dan 04-05-07, 10:42 AM	I completely agree, I will allow them, but as DM I do not use them. Yep, agreed... on the same note, this is why you will never see a Vorpal weapon in my games. If a player in my compaign dies, the vast majority of the time players would rather make a new character than have the former character raised. I would be the same way, coming back is just not the same. All right, someone on my page!
CryoSilver 04-05-07, 11:04 AM	I prefer low level and low magic games, but after playing a game in the Realsm with a DM who started us at level 15, I'm of the opinion that no spell needs to be banned, because anything you can do, the enemy can also do, and it's just a fact of the game that at high levels, most encounters boil down to "who fails a save first" situations.
Witch 04-05-07, 11:16 AM	I prefer low level and low magic games, but after playing a game in the Realsm with a DM who started us at level 15, I'm of the opinion that no spell needs to be banned, because anything you can do, the enemy can also do, and it's just a fact of the game that at high levels, most encounters boil down to "who fails a save first" situations. That's just dumb reasoning. "A first level spell that allows the killing of an enemy without a save or spell resistance is fine, because the enemy can do it too." Come on. At least try, if you want to argue to how no spell should be banned.
CryoSilver 04-05-07, 11:26 AM	Coming from the situation where two spellcasters just blast each other with spells in a 10 by 10 room, yes, it's dumb. But from the situation of actual encounters, in a world where the characters grew up surrounded by the magic in question, and know how to react, it isn't really. Color Spray (which is I assume what you're refering to) is dangerous IF you're just going to let yourself get hit with it, but that implies that you've let yourself get into a situation where that could happen. It's a pretty short-range spell, and I've never personally seen it break a game, because any time it's been used, there's rarely been an opportunity for either the players or the enemy to capitalize on it. On a related note, I'm not a big fan of level 1 games, because everyone dies so easily anyways.
Steely_Dan 04-05-07, 11:48 AM	On a related note, I'm not a big fan of level 1 games, because everyone dies so easily anyways. That's why it is best to start the PC's with triple max HD at first level, ala d20 Star Wars Saga, so the DM doesn't have to go on a dice fudging fest to keep the PC’s alive.
green_yawgmoth 04-05-07, 02:36 PM	That's why it is best to start the PC's with triple max HD at first level, ala d20 Star Wars Saga, so the DM doesn't have to go on a dice fudging fest to keep the PC’s alive. I just start the PCs off at level 6ish. Players aren't made of straw, they've got a little experience in dealing with the horrors of adventuring, and they can start to take a PrC if they so choose. That, and I can send things that are bigger or smaller than the PCs. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif