Barbarian Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tippy100
03-28-05, 11:06 PM Hullo fellow DMs,
I have a problem in a campaign I'm running. There are three people in the party, a human Favoured Soul (From CD), an Elven Druid, and a Half-Orc Barbarian (the problem, but we'll get to that). I have them at about level 3 thus far, and I've encountered this problem. No matter what enemy I throw at them, it doesn't work. Enemies that are a good power level for the Druid and FS are torn apart by the barbarian, and when I throw slightly stronger enemies at them, all they can do is attack the barbarian, since the other two would die quite quickly. So what I'm asking is, how can I better balance the barbarian with the rest of the party without blantantly taking away power from him?
adrj
03-28-05, 11:16 PM Will saves. Any magic that forces a will save could be an issue with a barbarian. If your player rages instantly upon seeing an enemy (upping his will save a little bit), save it for a second encounter later in the day.
Jkol the Butcher
03-28-05, 11:35 PM IIRC, rust monsters are CR 3, even a single such encounter has the potential to destroy a prized weapon, which will certainly slow the barbarian down a bit. Since their primary attack is their rust ablity, and they only have 27 hp -- it isn't something that is going to kill the party but It will certainly give the Druid and Favoured soul a chance to shine with indirect methods of combatting the beast.

The key is to mix around your encounters, you should keep up adding brutes to the mix -- but don't forget to add creatures that can cause problems by other means.
Some examples
1) Incoporeal creatures.
2) Monsters With Classes. A third level cleric can cast hold person. 3rd level Wizards have a few options. Such a creature might disable a rampaging barbarian -- leading off into a spellcasting duel of sorts.

The key is not to make every encounter one that is tailored to disabling the barbarian, but if you throw something like this in every once and a while it should give the Casters a chance to shine and not just to tag along.
At the same time, It doesn't hurt to give the barbarian his/her chance to shine either. Keep in mind that spellcasters tend to be at the advantage during the later levels of the game, and that sooner or later -- you might be at a point where the Druid and Favoured Soul are tearing through everything and the barbarian isn't much more than a really angry meat shield.
amethal
03-29-05, 07:08 AM The monsters don't have to be within charge range of the barbarian. If the monsters have spells or good missile attacks they will be looking to keep their distance.

If the casters have some decent offensive spells (and they will eventually even if they don't at the moment) they may be able to deal with the threat before the barbarian can reach it.

Deep snow is very good for slowing down barbarians (coupled with ice, if you are feeling nasty).

However, as previous posters have said, be careful you don't go to the other extreme and make the barbarian useless in every fight.

What works well with our party is multiple enemies. Typically, a big monster spots the party, then makes a run for it. The barbarian chases after it, outdistancing the rest of the PCs, who are then ambushed by the monster's allies.

Whichever one wins their fight first comes back to help the rest.
MortalPlague
03-29-05, 07:19 AM The monsters don't have to be within charge range of the barbarian. If the monsters have spells or good missile attacks they will be looking to keep their distance.

If the casters have some decent offensive spells (and they will eventually even if they don't at the moment) they may be able to deal with the threat before the barbarian can reach it.

I was going to say the exact same. I'm running a game with a group that has two casters, and they're a potent force when the foe is at range. In close quarters, it's definately time for the warriors to shine, though there are still some great caster spells that focus on melee.
MrkGrismer
03-29-05, 08:37 AM It's fine if the enemies are killed quickly by the barbarian, but don't make them only attack the barbarian, play the enemies like they would act. Group of three third level PCs? Try four-six orcs, with one or two class levels (mixed, mostly fighter/warriors with one or two spellcasters). The barbarian will likely kill one per round (two if he has cleave) but in the meantime the others will be threatening the spellcasters, and perhaps the orc spellcasters are also buffing and/or healing the ones on the barbarian.
primemover003
03-29-05, 11:23 AM I agree with Mrk... use more weak enemies. The Bbn can only attack so many creatures in a round. Keep the combatants mixed up. Throw a few creatures that can fly (vargouilles, darkmantles, monstrous bats, fiendish hawks) and foot soldiers. Mix a spellcaster or High AC rogue into the mix.
UltimateReality
03-29-05, 12:06 PM a human Favoured Soul (From CD), an Elven Druid, and a Half-Orc Barbarian (the problem, but we'll get to that). I have them at about level 3 thus far, and I've encountered this problem. No matter what enemy I throw at them, it doesn't work. Enemies that are a good power level for the Druid and FS are torn apart by the barbarian, and when I throw slightly stronger enemies at them, all they can do is attack the barbarian, since the other two would die quite quickly. So what I'm asking is, how can I better balance the barbarian with the rest of the party without blantantly taking away power from him?If you want an interesting fight where the other characters might get a chance to shine, try sticking some archers in trees (or on top of buildings if in a city). Keep things greater the 80 feet away if it's viable and makes sense for the NPCs/monsters. At this level, not many monster have ranged attacks so you're probably looking at NPCs.

Remember to get into the opponent's head too -- who would the opponent logically go for? The barbarian is a good pick due to his obvious meatshield status, but other, more tactical characters may actually figure that the FS and Druid are divine support characters, and therefore should go first -- especially if they just buffed the Barbarian.

Also, the barbarian is supposed to be a bit more powerful at low levels. The druid and FS will catch him up later. Big time. I'm kind of curious to know how your players are playing their chars too...is the druid making full use of his/her animal companion? What kind of spells is s/he preparing? What's everyone wielding for weapons, armor, and magic items (if any)?
allenchan
03-29-05, 01:15 PM You also didnt mention what level this was? if they're third or fourth level, of COURSE the barbarian is better then the other two. But fear not, soon the druid will far outstrip both.
Swiss619
03-29-05, 01:41 PM You might also want to check to see how they are statted and whatnot. Even at low levels, the Druid and FS shouldn't be totally helpless before somethign that the Barbarian can handel alone. Either the Barbarian is very well thought out, or the Druid/FS are haphazardly assembled. Or (even worse, for power gaps) both. :bigeyes:
Dauntless
03-29-05, 01:46 PM You also didnt mention what level this was? if they're third or fourth level, of COURSE the barbarian is better then the other two. But fear not, soon the druid will far outstrip both.

Actually he did say they were 3rd level. But honestly, when the druid hits 4th level and gets a black bear companion, then hits 5th and can TURN INTO a black bear... then hits 6th and can TURN INTO A BLACK BEAR AND STILL CAST SPELLS... well lets just say that the barbarian will get much less impressive.

But in the mean time, whats wrong with the barbarian being good at what he does? The Favored Soul can heal better than the druid or the barbarian, so are you going to cause problems for him too?
BW0222
03-29-05, 01:59 PM Tippy100,

>No matter what enemy I throw at them, it doesn't work.

Well... front-line fighter-types tend to dominate at lower-levels. By mid-to-high levels that druid of yours will be problem.

The key is to mix-up the combats.

* Surprise. Ambushes, sleeping in camp, etc. A fairly minor combat encounter becomes interesting in the dark when folks are scrambling for weapons and armour in the dark. Strange noises or dancing lights to separate the party, etc.

* Defensible positions. Nothing says that bad guys can't be in a good position. Archers on a balcony with trip wires or a grease spell on the stairs. Caltrops and set spears in front of them. A narrow log bridge, etc., etc. A swamp, moat, pit trap, wall, etc.

* Spellcasting. A sleep, charm, hold person, etc. is going to go after the barbarian.

* Oil, acid, tangle foot bags.

* Another barbarian or big fighter. Use a cleric or wizard for buff him.

* A cleric or druid. For example, a heavily armored cleric with shield of faith, a potion of blur, bull's strength, and a bless spell is going to cause some problems.

* Mounted combat. Have the opponents fire arrows and move away or just run over the barbarian with good-sized warhorse. The druid is in a better shape with entangle or hold animal.

* Pick some combat encounters which other players are more likely to succeed with in a non-combatant role. For example, say a grizzly bear for the druid to talk with.
Morka
03-29-05, 02:38 PM Position an archer in some brushes, just enough that it looks like he is hiding. The barbarian is likely to charge a so easy target. BUt here's the catch: the archer is standing just beside a camouflaged pit trap... So your barbarian is out for a few rounds, allowing the FS and Druid to shine a little bit!
Arrowhen
03-29-05, 02:50 PM Long encounters. In the last session I ran, I pitted my party of four 5th level characters against seven 2nd level kobold warriors. The party defeated them handily, taking no significant damage, but it took them eleven rounds to do so, as the kobold archers were atop a 15 foot wall, firing from behind cover. Eleven rounds is plenty of time for a barbarian's rage to wear off--if there'd been a barbarian in the party I'd have put some troops on the ground for the barbarian to chew through, leaving the rest of the party to take care of the archer support and deal with the reinforcements that showed up after the barbarian was fatigued. This way the barbarian would get his chance to shine at the start of the combat and the rest of the party would get to do their part at the end.
BRJN
04-01-05, 10:30 PM Hmmm, barbarian rages do NOT last forever (I found this out while playing a Testament scenario). The barbarian raged before getting into melee range, and ran out of rage while the enemy was still able to fight. After the rage comes the exhaustion.

A smart recurring villian, who has already identified a barbarian as one, will bring along a few friends to punch out the barbarian. When the barbarian is done with them and his rage wears off, the villian starts taking his shots - preferably from a little distance - at the fellow.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tippy100 03-28-05, 11:06 PM	Hullo fellow DMs, I have a problem in a campaign I'm running. There are three people in the party, a human Favoured Soul (From CD), an Elven Druid, and a Half-Orc Barbarian (the problem, but we'll get to that). I have them at about level 3 thus far, and I've encountered this problem. No matter what enemy I throw at them, it doesn't work. Enemies that are a good power level for the Druid and FS are torn apart by the barbarian, and when I throw slightly stronger enemies at them, all they can do is attack the barbarian, since the other two would die quite quickly. So what I'm asking is, how can I better balance the barbarian with the rest of the party without blantantly taking away power from him?
adrj 03-28-05, 11:16 PM	Will saves. Any magic that forces a will save could be an issue with a barbarian. If your player rages instantly upon seeing an enemy (upping his will save a little bit), save it for a second encounter later in the day.
Jkol the Butcher 03-28-05, 11:35 PM	IIRC, rust monsters are CR 3, even a single such encounter has the potential to destroy a prized weapon, which will certainly slow the barbarian down a bit. Since their primary attack is their rust ablity, and they only have 27 hp -- it isn't something that is going to kill the party but It will certainly give the Druid and Favoured soul a chance to shine with indirect methods of combatting the beast. The key is to mix around your encounters, you should keep up adding brutes to the mix -- but don't forget to add creatures that can cause problems by other means. Some examples 1) Incoporeal creatures. 2) Monsters With Classes. A third level cleric can cast hold person. 3rd level Wizards have a few options. Such a creature might disable a rampaging barbarian -- leading off into a spellcasting duel of sorts. The key is not to make every encounter one that is tailored to disabling the barbarian, but if you throw something like this in every once and a while it should give the Casters a chance to shine and not just to tag along. At the same time, It doesn't hurt to give the barbarian his/her chance to shine either. Keep in mind that spellcasters tend to be at the advantage during the later levels of the game, and that sooner or later -- you might be at a point where the Druid and Favoured Soul are tearing through everything and the barbarian isn't much more than a really angry meat shield.
amethal 03-29-05, 07:08 AM	The monsters don't have to be within charge range of the barbarian. If the monsters have spells or good missile attacks they will be looking to keep their distance. If the casters have some decent offensive spells (and they will eventually even if they don't at the moment) they may be able to deal with the threat before the barbarian can reach it. Deep snow is very good for slowing down barbarians (coupled with ice, if you are feeling nasty). However, as previous posters have said, be careful you don't go to the other extreme and make the barbarian useless in every fight. What works well with our party is multiple enemies. Typically, a big monster spots the party, then makes a run for it. The barbarian chases after it, outdistancing the rest of the PCs, who are then ambushed by the monster's allies. Whichever one wins their fight first comes back to help the rest.
MortalPlague 03-29-05, 07:19 AM	The monsters don't have to be within charge range of the barbarian. If the monsters have spells or good missile attacks they will be looking to keep their distance. If the casters have some decent offensive spells (and they will eventually even if they don't at the moment) they may be able to deal with the threat before the barbarian can reach it. I was going to say the exact same. I'm running a game with a group that has two casters, and they're a potent force when the foe is at range. In close quarters, it's definately time for the warriors to shine, though there are still some great caster spells that focus on melee.
MrkGrismer 03-29-05, 08:37 AM	It's fine if the enemies are killed quickly by the barbarian, but don't make them only attack the barbarian, play the enemies like they would act. Group of three third level PCs? Try four-six orcs, with one or two class levels (mixed, mostly fighter/warriors with one or two spellcasters). The barbarian will likely kill one per round (two if he has cleave) but in the meantime the others will be threatening the spellcasters, and perhaps the orc spellcasters are also buffing and/or healing the ones on the barbarian.
primemover003 03-29-05, 11:23 AM	I agree with Mrk... use more weak enemies. The Bbn can only attack so many creatures in a round. Keep the combatants mixed up. Throw a few creatures that can fly (vargouilles, darkmantles, monstrous bats, fiendish hawks) and foot soldiers. Mix a spellcaster or High AC rogue into the mix.
UltimateReality 03-29-05, 12:06 PM	a human Favoured Soul (From CD), an Elven Druid, and a Half-Orc Barbarian (the problem, but we'll get to that). I have them at about level 3 thus far, and I've encountered this problem. No matter what enemy I throw at them, it doesn't work. Enemies that are a good power level for the Druid and FS are torn apart by the barbarian, and when I throw slightly stronger enemies at them, all they can do is attack the barbarian, since the other two would die quite quickly. So what I'm asking is, how can I better balance the barbarian with the rest of the party without blantantly taking away power from him?If you want an interesting fight where the other characters might get a chance to shine, try sticking some archers in trees (or on top of buildings if in a city). Keep things greater the 80 feet away if it's viable and makes sense for the NPCs/monsters. At this level, not many monster have ranged attacks so you're probably looking at NPCs. Remember to get into the opponent's head too -- who would the opponent logically go for? The barbarian is a good pick due to his obvious meatshield status, but other, more tactical characters may actually figure that the FS and Druid are divine support characters, and therefore should go first -- especially if they just buffed the Barbarian. Also, the barbarian is supposed to be a bit more powerful at low levels. The druid and FS will catch him up later. Big time. I'm kind of curious to know how your players are playing their chars too...is the druid making full use of his/her animal companion? What kind of spells is s/he preparing? What's everyone wielding for weapons, armor, and magic items (if any)?
allenchan 03-29-05, 01:15 PM	You also didnt mention what level this was? if they're third or fourth level, of COURSE the barbarian is better then the other two. But fear not, soon the druid will far outstrip both.
Swiss619 03-29-05, 01:41 PM	You might also want to check to see how they are statted and whatnot. Even at low levels, the Druid and FS shouldn't be totally helpless before somethign that the Barbarian can handel alone. Either the Barbarian is very well thought out, or the Druid/FS are haphazardly assembled. Or (even worse, for power gaps) both. :bigeyes:
Dauntless 03-29-05, 01:46 PM	You also didnt mention what level this was? if they're third or fourth level, of COURSE the barbarian is better then the other two. But fear not, soon the druid will far outstrip both. Actually he did say they were 3rd level. But honestly, when the druid hits 4th level and gets a black bear companion, then hits 5th and can TURN INTO a black bear... then hits 6th and can TURN INTO A BLACK BEAR AND STILL CAST SPELLS... well lets just say that the barbarian will get much less impressive. But in the mean time, whats wrong with the barbarian being good at what he does? The Favored Soul can heal better than the druid or the barbarian, so are you going to cause problems for him too?
BW0222 03-29-05, 01:59 PM	Tippy100, >No matter what enemy I throw at them, it doesn't work. Well... front-line fighter-types tend to dominate at lower-levels. By mid-to-high levels that druid of yours will be problem. The key is to mix-up the combats. * Surprise. Ambushes, sleeping in camp, etc. A fairly minor combat encounter becomes interesting in the dark when folks are scrambling for weapons and armour in the dark. Strange noises or dancing lights to separate the party, etc. * Defensible positions. Nothing says that bad guys can't be in a good position. Archers on a balcony with trip wires or a grease spell on the stairs. Caltrops and set spears in front of them. A narrow log bridge, etc., etc. A swamp, moat, pit trap, wall, etc. * Spellcasting. A sleep, charm, hold person, etc. is going to go after the barbarian. * Oil, acid, tangle foot bags. * Another barbarian or big fighter. Use a cleric or wizard for buff him. * A cleric or druid. For example, a heavily armored cleric with shield of faith, a potion of blur, bull's strength, and a bless spell is going to cause some problems. * Mounted combat. Have the opponents fire arrows and move away or just run over the barbarian with good-sized warhorse. The druid is in a better shape with entangle or hold animal. * Pick some combat encounters which other players are more likely to succeed with in a non-combatant role. For example, say a grizzly bear for the druid to talk with.
Morka 03-29-05, 02:38 PM	Position an archer in some brushes, just enough that it looks like he is hiding. The barbarian is likely to charge a so easy target. BUt here's the catch: the archer is standing just beside a camouflaged pit trap... So your barbarian is out for a few rounds, allowing the FS and Druid to shine a little bit!
Arrowhen 03-29-05, 02:50 PM	Long encounters. In the last session I ran, I pitted my party of four 5th level characters against seven 2nd level kobold warriors. The party defeated them handily, taking no significant damage, but it took them eleven rounds to do so, as the kobold archers were atop a 15 foot wall, firing from behind cover. Eleven rounds is plenty of time for a barbarian's rage to wear off--if there'd been a barbarian in the party I'd have put some troops on the ground for the barbarian to chew through, leaving the rest of the party to take care of the archer support and deal with the reinforcements that showed up after the barbarian was fatigued. This way the barbarian would get his chance to shine at the start of the combat and the rest of the party would get to do their part at the end.
BRJN 04-01-05, 10:30 PM	Hmmm, barbarian rages do NOT last forever (I found this out while playing a Testament scenario). The barbarian raged before getting into melee range, and ran out of rage while the enemy was still able to fight. After the rage comes the exhaustion. A smart recurring villian, who has already identified a barbarian as one, will bring along a few friends to punch out the barbarian. When the barbarian is done with them and his rage wears off, the villian starts taking his shots - preferably from a little distance - at the fellow.