Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cambric 04-18-05, 11:26 AM	I apologize if this has been addressed before, search is down and I've gone through about 15 pages trying to find something about this...and on the "classes" forums. I'm dming a group of 5 players, and for the first time ever, in ANY of my playing days as player and/or dm, someone is a barbarian. No problem, I "read" over the information and thought I understood it, but I guess I don't, here's what happened: The player went into a "rage", I knew he gets +4 strength, +4 con, -2 AC...what I messed up was the amount of hit points he gets. I "thought" a +4 con, giving 2 extra hit DICE, not points...OOPS! :embarrass I gave him 24 extra hit points, he was 2nd level at the time, and it wasn't until another player said, "it says that he gets 2 hit POINTS per level only, not hit DICE." I looked over the paragraph and realized my mistake...(the battle was still in progress and the PC would've died, if he only got the +4 hit points...but on the other hand, he probably wouldn't have rushed and raged if he knew the answer)...I ruled, since I made the mistake, his temporary hit points that I gave him stands, for that one battle...until I can make sure of the correct answer. Now, to ME, a +2 hit points versus a -2 AC isn't that great of an advantage...I know they get the +4 to strength, so more damage, easier to hit the enemy, so I'm sure that "works out" in the end. So to those dm's that have had Barbarians in your groups, is it balanced? Do they only get the +2 hit points/level? Just doesn't seem like that much...but if that's "fair" and it's working for you, I would like to know and I'll make sure I understand it for the future. Thanks!! Cam
Lxarth 04-18-05, 11:34 AM	Yes, it's balenced. A Barbarian can hit hard and take a beating...thats what it does. At higher levels the hitpoints add up to even more.
nghtsngr 04-18-05, 11:34 AM	Wait till higher levels. Sure at low levels the +4 str is the primary benefit, but by the time he hits lvl 10 thats another 20 hps. At least the constitution bonus improves as the barbarian levels. The +4 str isn't nearly as awesome at 10th level as it is at 1st. In anycase, increasing his hit dice is extremely overpowered, and likely will guarantee a barbarian dies when the rage ends (and the bonus hitpoints fade away). Your game though, do what you like.
Lord Ian Stark 04-18-05, 11:34 AM	2 HP / Level. It isn't much, but it's better than nothing. Barbarians should have a lot of HP anyhow unless they rolled a lot of 2's and 3's for the level up HP's. Which I think gets rediculous since your gaining as many HP as a Wizard but whatever. As far as your ruling. You did the right thing. You made an error and let it stand for that one battle. From now on he does it by the RAW. This way everyone is happy.
cambric 04-18-05, 12:18 PM	Wait till higher levels. Sure at low levels the +4 str is the primary benefit, but by the time he hits lvl 10 thats another 20 hps. At least the constitution bonus improves as the barbarian levels. The +4 str isn't nearly as awesome at 10th level as it is at 1st. In anycase, increasing his hit dice is extremely overpowered, and likely will guarantee a barbarian dies when the rage ends (and the bonus hitpoints fade away). Your game though, do what you like. I've seen the several threads that discussed this issue, and I went with this path: The temporary hit points go first...then the base. That way, if the rage ends early, or he goes unconscious, then he'll still live, as long as he's not at -10 or lower. So, if he normally has 30 hit points, rages and moves them to 34 (now that I know the correct way of doing it), and he's hit for 5 points of damage, his "true" hit points are now 29...only down 1. 2 HP / Level. It isn't much, but it's better than nothing. Barbarians should have a lot of HP anyhow unless they rolled a lot of 2's and 3's for the level up HP's. Which I think gets rediculous since your gaining as many HP as a Wizard but whatever. As far as your ruling. You did the right thing. You made an error and let it stand for that one battle. From now on he does it by the RAW. This way everyone is happy. I make sure they get at least 50% of their possible hit points/level. I just don't get watching a PC work so hard to level, then get 1 hit point for it...and as for rulings, I follow this: I never rule against the players!! I will give the benefit of the doubt, and once I know the truth, RAW will be followed from that point on. Thanks for the answers...as long as I know it's balanced, he'll have to deal with it. He got "fortunate" for that battle, and I'm glad for him. Hopefully, he won't make the same mistake next time...for he was way over-matched, but of course, part of it was my fault for assuming he got an additional 24 hit points. Thank you again!! Cam
Keenath 04-18-05, 12:22 PM	Oh, it's worse than you think! But perhaps not terrible. Yes, first of all, he gets 2 HP per level. This is the same bonus that anyone gets for having a Bear's Endurance cast on them; they're not in addition to the HP from the constitution increase, but rather a specific statement of what the Barbarian gains due to his CON boost. What you missed is this: Those aren't TEMPORARY HP. When you rage, you gain 2 HP per level, and when the rage ends, you lose the same number! This leads to the "rage death" situation that's been discussed on the boards from time to time. Consider a 6th level barbarian, for example: He rages and gains 2 HP per level, or 12 HP. Now he gets hit hard, and he's down to 2 HP. Now rage ends. He loses those same 12 HP, putting him at -10 HP. He's dead, instantly, as soon as his rage ends. That gets even worse as you go up in level. A 15th level barbarian has gained Greater Rage, so he actually gains 45 HP when he rages. It's possible for him to be standing there at a comfortable 30 HP, stop raging, and instantly die (dropping to -15). At 20th level, you can actually die while your sheet says you've got 70 HP left. A good Barbarian player ignores the HP boost for the most part -- if you start cutting into that buffer, it's time to go find the cleric, because you're in danger of rage-death. You can treat it, to a certain extent, as a Ferocity effect that lets you keep fighting normally (or getting healed) when you'd otherwise be unconcious or dead. This brings up the next big issue, the unresolved question as to whether you continue to rage while unconcious. Can a simple Sleep spell stop your rage cold? This is a bigger deal than it might seem. There have been conflicting answers from customer service, so it's going to have to be a DM call. It seems logical that you can't keep raging if you can't think, but there's a nasty implication. If your 5th-level Barbarian drops to -1 HP while raging and goes unconcious, he instantly loses his rage HP. You go from -1 to -11 immediately, and die. That makes Ferocity a really IMPORTANT ability to a Barbarian! That only happens if you take a really HUGE amount of damage, I admit, since -- if you're playing right -- you won't let your HP hover inside the Rage range. I can happen, though.
Board_Rider 04-18-05, 12:23 PM	Well first, you did the right thing (IMO) so good job there. The Barbarians Rage ability isn't all that great but it is balanced. At whats sucks is that they get fatigued afterwards. As a DM whenever a Barbarian PC flys into a Rage I control the HP count as he, meaning the character, doesn't realize the damage hes taking. A nice touch I think. If you/he can, get the Complete Warrior. That will help this guy out tremendously.
Lxarth 04-18-05, 12:28 PM	As a DM whenever a Barbarian PC flys into a Rage I control the HP count as he, meaning the character, doesn't realize the damage hes taking. I have been thinking of doing this is someone plays a Barbarian in my game. Kinda a roll-over from 2nd. I like the idea, just not sure if my players would like it, I would never do it if the person playing the Barbarian didn't want me to, but if the player was OK with it I would just discribe his wounds alot more.
cambric 04-18-05, 12:31 PM	Oh, it's worse than you think! But perhaps not terrible. Yes, first of all, he gets 2 HP per level. This is the same bonus that anyone gets for having a Bear's Endurance cast on them; they're not in addition to the HP from the constitution increase, but rather a specific statement of what the Barbarian gains due to his CON boost. What you missed is this: Those aren't TEMPORARY HP. When you rage, you gain 2 HP per level, and when the rage ends, you lose the same number! Ouch! OK, thanks...I read, or thought so, in the players hand book that it said, "temporay" hitpoints and that "they go down first", so that's how I ruled it. I'll triple check that out!! Complete Warrior...thank you for that suggestion!! I did have him fatigued, as they were getting chased by the orcs, he suddenly found himself not able to run! :evillaugh They still got out, but barely...guess I'll look more into this class. He's young, as everyone in the party, about 15 years old, so he can't afford buying the books, so I'll get what I can and help him out. Cam
pres_man 04-18-05, 01:10 PM	Yeah, boosts to con don't give temporary hitpoints (get used first). So what I did in my game is add them on the bottom. For a 2nd-level barbarian. They get 4 extra hit points -> they can go down to -4 before they are incapacitated -> they can go down to -14 before they are dead (as long as they are still raging, unconsciousness does not end rage) -> if they end their rage at -10 thru -13, then they drop dead, if they end -1 thru -9 they fall unconscious and need to be stablized. For a 10th-level barbarian They get 20 extra hit points -> they can go down to -20 before they are incapacitated -> they can go down to -30 before they are dead (as long as they are still raging, unconsciousness does not end rage) -> if they end their rage at -10 thru -29, then they drop dead, if they end -1 thru -9 they fall unconscious and need to be stablized.