Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jadain 11-08-04, 12:01 PM	Hi, Just a quick question for ya'll. Doesn't a bard need to make perform checks when singing/playing his/her instrument, no matter what? I mean, say a bard enters an establishment and indicates he/she is going to join in the singing. He also indicates the ppl he/she is joining are thrilled by his/her voice. Wouldn't that require a perform check or am I nit-picking? Also, what happens if a bard has no ranks in perform? If I remember correctly, perform can be used untrained but..... Would really appreciate some thoughts! Thanks! Veronica :P
Vix Damnul v2 11-08-04, 12:08 PM	Well, if the bard is performing for real, have em make a perform check, i think under the skill it lists the DCs and whatnot. If they just say "i'm singing, and the crowd loves it" hit the player. If they want a reaction, they need to make a roll, unless you can take 10/20 on perform, i can't remember. A bard without ranks in perform is like a fighter without limbs... unless we're talking like, an ooze with fighter levels... Anyway, bardic music effects ALL require certain ranks in perform, starting at 3 RANKS, not a +3 modifier. Assuming a bard has a high charisma, they can make a perform check with no skill ranks (if it can be used untrained, don't have my books on me), but the result will probably not be too hot, and try explaining to your party "i sing while you fight... but it doesn't DO anything".
Rancorpit 11-08-04, 12:55 PM	edited: Whoops, it seems that I was wrong. According to the PHB, Perform can be used untrained, although on the character sheet, it's not marked with the little black box.
CzarGarrett 11-08-04, 01:01 PM	I took it as being that when a Bard used the Bardic Music ability, that incorporated the minimum ranks of perform. Like the first few abilities require 3 ranks. So maybe you could say that the DC to Inspire Courage is 13, so using the Bardic Music for Inspire Courage is the equvilant of taking 10 + the minimum rank. Outside of the Bardic Music, the Bard has to 'wing it' in singing/dancing/etc, and its not a truly specific ability.
Dash Branaghan 11-08-04, 02:32 PM	Doesn't a bard need to make perform checks when singing/playing his/her instrument, no matter what? I mean, say a bard enters an establishment and indicates he/she is going to join in the singing. He also indicates the ppl he/she is joining are thrilled by his/her voice. Wouldn't that require a perform check or am I nit-picking? Also, what happens if a bard has no ranks in perform? If I remember correctly, perform can be used untrained but..... Ah, the bard. Anytime the bard wants to perform, they should make a roll. Especially in a civilized setting where their singing may earn them a coin or two. If it doesn't matter, you can have them skip the roll, but if they are trying to impress, dazzle, earn a name, etc, then rolling is a must. If they have no ranks in perform, then they can still attempt to sing, dance, perform, but they cannot use their special Bardic abilities such as Inspire Courage etc which have a rank in Perform requirement. Another thing to watch for is Skill Focus: Perform. It seems a no-brainer that each different style of perform would require a skill focus, but I have seen players in the past try to pass off Skill Focus: Perform as a blanket feat that covers all perform styles. Just something that some players assume and some DMs don't catch. Dash
clarkvalentine 11-08-04, 02:51 PM	Technically, rolls should be used anytime that it's important whether the Bard succeeds or not. If it's simply the player equivalent of "flavor text", I'd say just let it go, especially if they have a lot of ranks of Perform (Voice) or whatever sort of performance they're doing.
Oompa 11-08-04, 04:16 PM	It depends.. If he went in singing to just show off he's happy and not to be of an importance.. dont make the roll.. But if he comes in walking and singing for his attention.. to show off his singing skill or to earn some money.. make him roll.. It just depends from the situation used in.. and for the use without a rank, i would let him roll once if he tries to sing.. if he throws 20... someone sings great, a lucky day.. if someone throws a 1.. his throat is a bit sour and he decides singing isnt the best option... It all depends on you!
jadain 11-08-04, 04:52 PM	Thanks for all the good thoughts and suggestions! I really appreciate it! Veronica
Shard of Suzail 11-08-04, 05:51 PM	I think random bar singing is one of the best times that a player should take ten. All too often a perfectly good bard suddenly finds himself playing like a tuneless howler monkey purely because the dice are poor. Likewise, when rolls are made, its hard to judge what is good and what's not. Often those numbers can get some very misleading description from even long time GM's purely because there is only so much you can succeed at when playing a simple tune for five guys in a tavern. Look, i roll 26! Ok, yup, you can play a nice tune, well done, they like it. Look, I roll 38! Yup, its a good tune, very clever, they`ll be humming it for some time to come. Look I roll 16! Hmm, thats an ok tune, it gets a few nods. Oh, sorry, your bard has a lower skill than Joe's bard...what i mean is, they like that a lot, its humworthy. Look i roll 12! Ok, you play a song...yes i know 12 is a success, but have you seen what Joe rolls? You just dont compete with him. I mean, every proper bard easily beats 12, you know. Thats just not as impressive as, say, 12 on climbing. *** Overall, all the bard's i`ve seen have such an amazing perform skill and wonderful charisma that one wonders why they play in a tavern at all. I mean, if you described it properly, each song they make would be a work of legend, with the rolls they usually crank out. Perform can just get into a confusing and pointless arms race, so its better if people just take ten a lot more and stop showing off. There is only so much you can wow six greasy men in a bar. Save the real rolls for after great battles or for when the heavens turn to blood as a god dies.