Bard on a roll! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard on a roll! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Malcaor
05-21-07, 08:14 PM I had a 16 hour long game with my friends on the weekend. It was my first time as DM, and I was quite confident in my skills when at the end of the planned 5 hours, all my players demanded to keep playing. It was well after midnigth when I finally was out fo ideas.

Anyway one of our party members is a Bard who has a awesome CHA bonus, and all his skills in talking skills maxed out. He's currently got +10 to bluff checks for example. None of my NPCs can catch him in his lies.

Is there anyway I can stop this man in his million lies? He has been able to talk hsi way out of everything so far.
Myers
05-21-07, 08:24 PM Zone/Candle of truth, Just be careful to make the scenario one that he can't use literal truths to form a lie. What type situations is he lying out of?
Nom
05-21-07, 08:24 PM +10 is pretty good if it's a mundane and believable lie, but it's not going to work for stuff where the victim has a vested interest in not believing it (-10) or it's just plain unbelievable (-20).
Malcaor
05-21-07, 08:29 PM Wow, -10 is quite a lot. I have only been docking -2/-4 for NPCs that are unlikely to believe him. That is a good idea though. Next session he'll have a harder time lying.
MindLich
05-21-07, 09:39 PM Wow, -10 is quite a lot. I have only been docking -2/-4 for NPCs that are unlikely to believe him.
Pfft, and you call yourself a respectable DM.

Yes but it is true, as you can see in the Player's Handbook under bluff, lies that are plain unbelievable go with a heavy penalty. By implementing the proper rules you can balance the game out.
Fatalis_902
05-22-07, 04:36 PM That said, make sure you are careful about the exact location of where you draw the line between believable and unbelievable. But yeah, the rules are right there in the PHB. Stick to those and you will be fine. Just make sure that his lies are unbelievable enough to deserve the penalty. Also, do not let him discover the awesome might of diplomacy. You think he's talking his way out of everything now, wait till he is not only talking his way out of everything, but he has recruited everyone else to his side, as well. That is the true power of Charisma based skills.
n3ro
05-22-07, 07:56 PM Pfft, and you call yourself a respectable DM.

Yes but it is true, as you can see in the Player's Handbook under bluff, lies that are plain unbelievable go with a heavy penalty. By implementing the proper rules you can balance the game out.

May I also suggest maybe approaching this player before the next session and just explaining that the bluffs were handled wrong (maybe even show him the entry) so they aren't caught off guard un-fairly at a critical moment (that might end in some extreame grumpiness).
tiercel
05-22-07, 08:17 PM Well... yeah, if his lies are outrageous and/or the person he's lying to has very good reason to disbelieve him (e.g. they know for themselves something to be true, which is contrary to what he's saying), then by all means invoke those hefty penalties. You don't get to just convince people that the moon is made of green cheese, for free.

Of course, if the player is clever he will just be more careful to tell more believable lies... but that in itself will rein in the more outrageous uses of the Bluff skill. Meanwhile... if he has maxed-out Bluff, his character *should* be good at lying. Not undetectable, certainly, but pretty good.

Just make sure that every once in a while he runs into someone with a bit of Sense Motive. Note that this isn't as hard as it sounds -- significant NPCs may be Aristocrats or Experts and have Sense Motive as a class skill. Even a +5 in Sense Motive, while inferior to his +10 Bluff, should be enough to make him sweat a bit ... enough lies and he will be caught out sooner rather than later.

(That and, honestly, +10 should hardly be enough to let him get away with everything all the time... the thing about a d20 based game is that a d20 has a LOT of variance. Someone with even +0 Sense Motive can beat a +10 Bluff some of the time.)

But yeah... things to watch out for.... Diplomacy abuse (you're going to have to put in some kind of house rule if he discovers just how that works by RAW), and if he loves outrageous lies, the glibness spell (with a +30 bonus to Bluff checks to tell lies, he can quite easily go back to the most outrageous claims and make them at least temporarily plausible sounding).

Additionally, if he's devious and clever he will start using bardic suggestions quite a bit too when he gets hold of them. (He's got to work them into a performance, but Perform (Oratory) is especially handy for this.)

Face it -- bards can be really, really good manipulators. Don't be afraid to let him do what he's good at it, just like you let the barbarian get his KRUG SMASH PUNY GOBLINS on. But yeah... know how to keep him from just always getting it his own way too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malcaor 05-21-07, 08:14 PM	I had a 16 hour long game with my friends on the weekend. It was my first time as DM, and I was quite confident in my skills when at the end of the planned 5 hours, all my players demanded to keep playing. It was well after midnigth when I finally was out fo ideas. Anyway one of our party members is a Bard who has a awesome CHA bonus, and all his skills in talking skills maxed out. He's currently got +10 to bluff checks for example. None of my NPCs can catch him in his lies. Is there anyway I can stop this man in his million lies? He has been able to talk hsi way out of everything so far.
Myers 05-21-07, 08:24 PM	Zone/Candle of truth, Just be careful to make the scenario one that he can't use literal truths to form a lie. What type situations is he lying out of?
Nom 05-21-07, 08:24 PM	+10 is pretty good if it's a mundane and believable lie, but it's not going to work for stuff where the victim has a vested interest in not believing it (-10) or it's just plain unbelievable (-20).
Malcaor 05-21-07, 08:29 PM	Wow, -10 is quite a lot. I have only been docking -2/-4 for NPCs that are unlikely to believe him. That is a good idea though. Next session he'll have a harder time lying.
MindLich 05-21-07, 09:39 PM	Wow, -10 is quite a lot. I have only been docking -2/-4 for NPCs that are unlikely to believe him. Pfft, and you call yourself a respectable DM. Yes but it is true, as you can see in the Player's Handbook under bluff, lies that are plain unbelievable go with a heavy penalty. By implementing the proper rules you can balance the game out.
Fatalis_902 05-22-07, 04:36 PM	That said, make sure you are careful about the exact location of where you draw the line between believable and unbelievable. But yeah, the rules are right there in the PHB. Stick to those and you will be fine. Just make sure that his lies are unbelievable enough to deserve the penalty. Also, do not let him discover the awesome might of diplomacy. You think he's talking his way out of everything now, wait till he is not only talking his way out of everything, but he has recruited everyone else to his side, as well. That is the true power of Charisma based skills.
n3ro 05-22-07, 07:56 PM	Pfft, and you call yourself a respectable DM. Yes but it is true, as you can see in the Player's Handbook under bluff, lies that are plain unbelievable go with a heavy penalty. By implementing the proper rules you can balance the game out. May I also suggest maybe approaching this player before the next session and just explaining that the bluffs were handled wrong (maybe even show him the entry) so they aren't caught off guard un-fairly at a critical moment (that might end in some extreame grumpiness).
tiercel 05-22-07, 08:17 PM	Well... yeah, if his lies are outrageous and/or the person he's lying to has very good reason to disbelieve him (e.g. they know for themselves something to be true, which is contrary to what he's saying), then by all means invoke those hefty penalties. You don't get to just convince people that the moon is made of green cheese, for free. Of course, if the player is clever he will just be more careful to tell more believable lies... but that in itself will rein in the more outrageous uses of the Bluff skill. Meanwhile... if he has maxed-out Bluff, his character should be good at lying. Not undetectable, certainly, but pretty good. Just make sure that every once in a while he runs into someone with a bit of Sense Motive. Note that this isn't as hard as it sounds -- significant NPCs may be Aristocrats or Experts and have Sense Motive as a class skill. Even a +5 in Sense Motive, while inferior to his +10 Bluff, should be enough to make him sweat a bit ... enough lies and he will be caught out sooner rather than later. (That and, honestly, +10 should hardly be enough to let him get away with everything all the time... the thing about a d20 based game is that a d20 has a LOT of variance. Someone with even +0 Sense Motive can beat a +10 Bluff some of the time.) But yeah... things to watch out for.... Diplomacy abuse (you're going to have to put in some kind of house rule if he discovers just how that works by RAW), and if he loves outrageous lies, the glibness spell (with a +30 bonus to Bluff checks to tell lies, he can quite easily go back to the most outrageous claims and make them at least temporarily plausible sounding). Additionally, if he's devious and clever he will start using bardic suggestions quite a bit too when he gets hold of them. (He's got to work them into a performance, but Perform (Oratory) is especially handy for this.) Face it -- bards can be really, really good manipulators. Don't be afraid to let him do what he's good at it, just like you let the barbarian get his KRUG SMASH PUNY GOBLINS on. But yeah... know how to keep him from just always getting it his own way too.