Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FabulousRex 09-25-05, 12:33 PM	I'm posting this on behalf of a friend who's DMing another game than the one I'm in. He seems to have extreme difficulty in dealing with one particular player in his campaign that is making all of the encounters 'trivial'. It's an Eberron Campaign with Core SRD rules only. This 8th level Changeling Bard not only practically instantly sets up the most favorable social situation (high Diplomacy, Glibness, Charm), but finds constant ways to out-perform the other party members on a consistent basis. There's also a Warforged Fighter/Juggernaut, Kalashtar Telepath, Elven Rogue, and Shifter Druid. The problem comes primarily from the spells and attacks the Bard uses. Scrolls of utitlity powers and wands of damage powers (Scorching Ray being a Favorite) along with misdirection and mind-affecting Bard spells make him a pain to deal with. The Fascinate/Suggestion ability also is highly suspect out of combat. Does he have to ambush the players every time to prevent the Bard's smooth-talking and mind-controling? Even when the DM tried to kill the Bard in particular, things like D-Door and Invisibility/Sculpt Sound prevented the Bard from dying a glorious death. His smart placement of spells from wands, scrolls, and class make him better than the Psion. His self-buffs and items make him better in melee than the Juggernaut. His social skills are far and away better than the Rogue. The druid is pretty rough with wildshape, and about the only one not feeling left behind. Not to mention he's giving everyone +3 to hit/damage whenever he buffs himself singing. So it's not only his annoying use of spells and effects, it's his overall party-enhancing power that's making things difficult for the DM. Any advice from the regulars on how to deal with a runaway Bard?
Draco Strang 09-25-05, 12:37 PM	Well, you could limit his access to magic items and scrolls. If he's making too many uber-buff choices, then simply tell him that those potions and scrolls are sold out next time. Of course, that can quickly get unfair when you as the DM just yank anything that he comes up with. Gotta give the guy some room to run with. Suprisingly, you're one of the first I've ever heard saying that the bard is overpowered. The ONLY trouble I've ever had with a bard is the uber-diplomat one, where they've got a +50 Diplomacy modifier by about 8th level.
Illion the Red 09-25-05, 12:46 PM	Diplomacy is not mind control. Never forget that. Also don't forget this little tidbit: Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check. It also helps if you take prep-time away from time to time. If it takes three rounds to get all of the buffs up, that's going to be a bit of a problem if a rogue is sneak-attacking you for all three of those rounds or someone is nailing you with various spells the whole time.
Talonz 09-25-05, 01:03 PM	I'm not really seeing the problem here. Perhaps stats or an example would help? Because otherwise it sounds like he's playing a bard to its strengths. If you truly wish to take him out of that, exploit his weaknesses (silence, dispel magic, grapple, etc.). And yeah, diplomacy assumes a willing listener.
Chosen of the Dark Sun 09-25-05, 01:16 PM	Yes, finally someone besides me who has learned that bards are definately not underpowered. Think about it: they get spells, they get good skills, and they can easily buff the whole party. But as to fighting this guy, silence spells are always useful against bards.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-25-05, 01:22 PM	Fascinate requires the target not to be in danger, the bard's main spells allow will saves. The only real thing is magic items. Scrolls and wands fuel the bard. Since you don't have a wizard in the party, he can't make his own scorching ray scrolls. Just restrict acess. But that said, don't gun for a player just because he knows how to play well.
Cheekpouches 09-25-05, 01:27 PM	Recently a walk on character in my eberron campaighn played an 8th gnome bard. It seemed to be the opposite of what your friend is expirencing. That bard delt a total of 9 damage the whole session and 3 of that was from a summoned monster(i told him that summon monster II wouldn't be all that useful but no he knows my campaign better that I know it.) The ideas about using silence, dispel magic, and grapple are good or just have the Dm take the kid gloves off and make encounters where the bards abilities are required for the party to survive. Just off the top of my head perhaps a group of spellcasters mounted on flying mounts maybe griffons equiped with wands of dispel magic. possibly with levels of eldritch knight and a few javileins of lightning. The flying mounts should help negate dimension door. As to making the warforged, the rogue, and the psion more useful perhaps mave an encounter that takes advantage of the juggernauts resistances or using monsters with spell resistance and not power resistance(if you play with it being different), the rogue will be more usfull if the bards spells are negated by spell resistance.
Duration_10_Rounds 09-25-05, 01:27 PM	Yeah things like Glibness, Tongues, Charm person, Clam emotions and Diplomacy, Bluff can resolve encounters. Use Glibness to halt the encoutner with a lie i.e Why are you attacking us? we're undercover! the boss has sent us to find those intruders. (at 30+ Ranks + Cha bonus+ Misc bonus :eek: ) Then that lines you up for diplomicy if want to continiue the now non violent encounter. Or just stroll off. Any language barriers and Tongues has it covered. If some one in the group can calm emotions you can halt a fight and start your godly lieing ability (+30 ... thats just such a high bonus) or diplomacy. Charm Person an attacking groups leader and tell him to call of his men and explain we're friends. Thats what bards are for! Thier control of an encounter is delicate and tenuous and a saved savingthrow or a great sense motive will botch the whole thing. It also, in some cases, denies the party prep time.. because if the bard is trying to bluff or diplomacy and his group is drawing weapons and "buffing" up its just not going to work becuase his party looks activly agressive and ready to pounce any moment. The bard should have a shot at being able to circumvent encounters, its what makes him special, it doesnt always work but when it does it is potent.
FriendoftheDork 09-25-05, 01:31 PM	hey this is a cool thread, I've always considered bards pretty sucky. Congratulate the player for me as he has made his bard really good :) But anyway... I think the DM must be doing something wrong. I doubt Schorching ray is on the bard's spell list, and even so it's only really good at caster level 7 or so. Which makes a very expensive wand, and he will probably have to make use magic device checks to make them work (he should have about +13 - +15 at that level, not enough for guaranteed success. Now I don't know if being a changeling affects anything, as it's Ebberon and not SRD. But what are his abilities? If you all rolled stats he may be effective because he rolled alot better than everyone else. Also It may simply be that he's an experienced players while the others are newbies. As for the bard's spells, well some are neat but they are few and he doesen't get that much good spells at 7th level, compared to a wizard or even a cleric, not to mention a telepath! Actually at that level the teep should be able to deal more damage with powers (at least 7d6), buff himself more efficiently, be almost as good with social skills, be alot better at mind-affecting powers (no display). Now i suspect the problem is that the bard's player has min-maxed his for effectiveness while the rest has not. perhaps he can help them a bit in generation and spell/power choises? Hmm considering trying to play a kickass bard next ;)
Rumple_Cragstan 09-25-05, 01:42 PM	finds constant ways to out-perform the other party members on a consistent basis. No offence to your party, but if a bard is out-performing them, then something is wrong. Bards can't fight like fighters, and can't cast spells like druids. Not gonna happen. The problem comes primarily from the spells and attacks the Bard uses. Scrolls of utitlity powers and wands of damage powers (Scorching Ray being a Favorite) along with misdirection and mind-affecting Bard spells make him a pain to deal with. Thats a bit pricy. Wands and scrolls get expensive after a while of using them, and as opposed to permanent magic items (like that cloak of CHA the bard wants) they're not the best constant choice. He'll run out of ammo eventually. Even when the DM tried to kill the Bard in particular, things like D-Door and Invisibility/Sculpt Sound prevented the Bard from dying a glorious death. Sounds great, I hate to say it, but even when I want to kill a PC, I'm pleased when this happens. Thats not being a cheezeball and escaping by technicalities and broken combos... thats just using the basic spells to thier full effect. Any 13 INT bard should do that. His smart placement of spells from wands, scrolls, and class make him better than the Psion. The main difference is that the Psion gets an ammo refill for free every morning. If the bard is casting damage spells every round, at a higher damage than the Psion (don't see how that might happen as long as the Psion is augmenting) then the bard will run out of ammo VERY fast. Scrolls are single-use and wands are 50 charges brand new. His self-buffs and items make him better in melee than the Juggernaut. Once again, something is wrong. The bard should have like half the fighter's HP (thats without the CON mod in there).I can understand the attack bonus getting juiced up, but the bard will get TROUNCED within a few rounds. And his AC should not be able to get THAT much higher either, so he should be taking damage fairly reliably. His social skills are far and away better than the Rogue. I don't see the problem there. I never saw rogue as a very social class... they seemed more the iconic dungeon delver to me. If he's trying to be social rather than putting ranks in dungeon survival skills (search, spot, listen, disable device, tumble, ect) then he deserves to be socially trounced by the bard. Not to mention he's giving everyone +3 to hit/damage whenever he buffs himself singing. Um... you're at level 8? He should have JUST gotten (this level) his inspire courage +2. Something is amiss here. So it's not only his annoying use of spells and effects, it's his overall party-enhancing power that's making things difficult for the DM. Any advice from the regulars on how to deal with a runaway Bard? So step it up a notch. My players do things like this, so I improve the overall EL of the encounters. In my last game, I believe the EL was 1 or 2 above the party at all times, because thats what challenged them. I sent them against a dragon 5 CRs higher than them, and they still managed to win (Web is a freaking nasty spell, especially when Ray of Enfeeblement is involved.). No harm done.... IMO the current CR system is made to suit less experienced players anyways.
lonesoldier 09-25-05, 01:56 PM	Dungeon + Oozes and/or Constructs and/or unintelligent Undead and/or Living Spells. Perhaps it's time for the annual trip to the Mournlands?
FabulousRex 09-25-05, 05:58 PM	A trip to the Mournlands sounds like a great idea to me... As for 'outfighting' the Juggernaut, maybe I should be more specific. He has a Whip and Improved Trip. Sure the Jugg might hit hard and not take much damage back, but a mobile harasser makes things much easier for everyone involved to hit with. Taking down BBEGs in particular is his specialty. Disarming Lucan Stellos and tripping him is nasty. For bigger non-weapon users, they typically have low will saves. Plants are decimated by the Druid, and Undead is about the only thing hurting the party at all. That's why he carries an Undead Bane Rapier +1 as his primary 'hurty' weapon. Here's a rundown on his stats: Changeling Bard lvl8 Str12 Dex 16(18w/gloves) Con14 Wis8 Int 14 Cha 16(18w/cloak) +1 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Undead Bane Rapier, 2 MW Whips, Various non-magical adventuring gear, Circlet of Persuasion, Wand(s) of Scorching Ray cl7 (typically acquired en masse with less than 10 charges left), all kinds of scrolls (Web, Prot. From Evil, and Fly being favorites) and a whole host of quick-change outfits. Feats are W.Finesse, Combat Exp., Improved Trip, and Song of the Heart (acquired by sacrificing his Inspire Competence song, as per the Eberron Campaign setting rules). The Telepath apparently tries to be non-violent mostly, goody-2-shoes kinda. The Rogue is using 2WF, but mind-immune creatures are typically also immune to Sneak Attack, so he's negated by the Bard's strenghts. The Juggernaut is indeed non-optimized, but has tons of DR/Adamantine for most of his feats. The Druis is run well, but for some reason used the substitution levels that replace Wildshape with extra Shifting per day (my mistake), and has some insane combos, but needs buffing time.
Solik 09-25-05, 07:05 PM	Sounds like your problem is that one player is taking the spotlight. The most likely cause is that his build happens to be most effective against the particular encounters being used. Thus, to allow other players opportunities to shine, the challenges need to be varied. Send constructs and other mindless beasties at 'em. Have a wizard present (in a rather safe position) throwing around counterspells and dispel magic.
TinManFan 09-25-05, 07:07 PM	Maybe the rest of yer party isn't as good a min maxxer as he is? Anyhoo, a +3 is easy. +2 at lvl 8 along with Harmony makes it a beefy +3. (Just be glad they got ride of most of those Song and Silence spells, it could be a lot worse). First off, tell that guy to switch to a Mighty (+1) Chain Whip Dagger. Get some damage goin! Seriously. Second. Wow, in a world with Artificers everywhere blasting away with 108d6 a round, this guy can scrounge up some wands of Scorching Ray. Go Fig. Also, tell him to make friends with said Ficers and get some +30 UMD skill items. If yer gonna optimize, do it right. As for the previous Poster, the CR system is whacky. I always assume the CR is for a fight with no prep time on either side. Give a cleric some turning rods and illeagal use of Div MM: Persistant Spell (You have to be able to cast 11th lvl spells to make a 5th lvl Divine Metamagic-ed: Persistant. Read the freakin feat people), that CR is nuttin. For just the Cleric. Bototm Line: Yer not gonna be able to get rid of him w/o being VERY obvious about doing it. Also, yer there to let people have fun. If everyone is having fun, where's the problem? Solution? Enjoy the ride and have situations where someone else can be in the foreground. (An Island where only women are allowed to speak, a Fighter's COnvention, some wackey Ebberron Druidic Holiday in the woods or sumptin).
Razaiel 09-25-05, 07:20 PM	Wow...so you're complaining that someone is using a bard to its maximum capability??????? You'd think that it would be the other way around. From where I'm sitting, that player is just using the strengths of his character build. If you want to take the wind out of his sails, throw encounters at him that make it hard for him to use his abilities (undead, constructs, oozes, and other mindless creatures or things that are resistant to mind affecting abilities). As far as the Diplomacy skill goes, at least the player is using it like it's supposed to be used. However, as it has already been stated, it takes 1 full minute to change another person's attitude, and you take a -10 penalty if you try to do that in a full-round action. So if the player is talking to someone who is hostile, the NPC should be attacking the bard while the bard is trying to convince him not to.
UltimateReality 09-25-05, 07:22 PM	rapier - 8k gloves - 4k cloak - 4k breastplate - 2k whips - 600 circlet - 6k wand - 10.5k scrolls - can I get a list here? Total: 35,100 gp plus scrolls. Wealth per Level for an ECL 8 PC: 27,000 gp. Problem found. What does the rest of the group have? And btw -- what's the bard's UMD mod?
q'afuu 09-25-05, 07:30 PM	Here's a rundown on his stats: Changeling Bard lvl8 Str12 Dex 16(18w/gloves) Con14 Wis8 Int 14 Cha 16(18w/cloak) +1 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Undead Bane Rapier, 2 MW Whips, Various non-magical adventuring gear, Circlet of Persuasion, Wand(s) of Scorching Ray cl7 (typically acquired en masse with less than 10 charges left), all kinds of scrolls (Web, Prot. From Evil, and Fly being favorites) and a whole host of quick-change outfits. Feats are W.Finesse, Combat Exp., Improved Trip, and Song of the Heart (acquired by sacrificing his Inspire Competence song, as per the Eberron Campaign setting rules). Standard wealth for 8th level: 27K. This guy has at least that much in gear, wands and scrolls excluded. Not necessarily a problem, but something to take into account at least. Scrolls in particular are fairly expensive. Are the other characters getting stuff equal to this total value as well? Even with Impr. Trip and the bonus from Inspire Courage, he shouldn't be able to do trip reliably (nor disarm for that matter). His BAB and Str are just not good enough for that. All in all, the 'problem' (insofar as it is one) lies more with the other characters. This bard is decently built, but not spectacular (not given the amount of cash he has). The others are simply below average power-wise, aside from perhaps the Druid. That isn't necessarily problematic though, especially in Eberron. It doesn't always have to come down to killing stuff. What's important is having fun. If some of the other characters aren't built to kill, might it be that their players don't attach too much importance to killing stuff in the first place? UltimateReality, not that it matters much but a couple of your figures are off. A Breastplate is medium armour, so +1 mithral is 5Ksomething. A Circlet of Persuasion is only 4K5.
kir_kenix 09-25-05, 07:42 PM	the bard isnt overpowered, apparently he is just a better RP'er then everyone else in the party. the thing that make bards so damn cool is that they have the ability to do a lil of everything. i would suspect that the reason he is doing so well in your game is that the dm is allowing him a little too much freedom, as wands and scrolls are expensive. if this character is the best at everything in the party, then he is probably just manipulating the dm, the encounters they face, and the other party members. bards are cool, and when used correctly are the ultimate utility player in any game, able to HELP OUT in any situation. that doesnt mean that the bard should be able to RUN OVER every encounter they meet. have the dm throw some stuff out there specifically to mess w/ this guy, or else put them in situations where he cant be helpful. there are a ton of ways to negate his ability to use spells in combat, and then have it be more difficult for this guy to come up w/ his field artillary that he favors in fights (ie scrolls and wands). just a thought. schram out
Rumple_Cragstan 09-25-05, 08:03 PM	When did bards get medium armor? Mithral dosn't make it a lighter class for proficiency issues - it just changes the stats. If you don't know how to use it correctly, making it lighter is not going to help. So he's taking some serious check penalties with that in mind. Also.... if he keeps aquiring Scorching Ray wands with less than 10 charges left... why not just stop handing them out? I mean thats part of the DMs job, regulating treasure flow. If the PCs are using something a bit too liberally, make it scarce. If they have too much cash, run some encounters with 'no treasure' creatures and even it out. And wait a second... there's a telepath? Aren't they the ones that get Death Urge and those nutty powers? Also, you say that he's tripping all the enemies? Here's my solution: wider encounters. Sometimes a fight against 4 CR6 creatures is a WAY better fight than a single CR 9. If you're worried about the BBEGs specifically, why not work on PC logic - work in groups. If a single PC went through a dungeon, he would probably get smooshed. Why would the good guys be the only ones to group up? The only way you can really have problems with this is with CE villains... but in that case, just have a handful or 3 of henchmen.
Burgundy Lotus 09-25-05, 08:06 PM	According to the Sage and several other similar items elsewhere in the rules Mithral does indeed affect proficiencies.
FabulousRex 09-25-05, 09:44 PM	Not that it matters, Bards are proficient in Medium armor anyhow. I think the problem is becoming a focus on trying to put a stop to the Bard in specific. It does indeed sound like a bit of spotlight stealing to me... Perhaps a woodsy Druid quest would be nice? Or just other ways to involve the other players more, because that's the biggest problem here. Certainly the Telepath and the Juggernaut are'nt the best built PCs, but involving them some more would make the game less 'Bard Focused'. Personally, I don't think the Bard can really be 'stopped', but my friend is a bit of an adversarial DM, that builds custom BBEGs and roleplays them with gusto. The Bard is always going to find a way to shine, but perhaps if more customized encounters with the Inspired, Gatekeepers, or Lord of Blades would add some fun and put greater importance on the other players.
twad 09-26-05, 12:50 AM	maybe you could suggest to said DM this modified version of the Diplomacy Skill. (taken on the Order of the stick website) http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html
Tedly224 09-26-05, 01:06 AM	A bard with Song of the Heart feat (eberron) and Inspiration Boost (complete adventurer) can give the whole party (summoned allies included) a +3 to hit, damage, and saves... At level 3. That's pretty beefy. Of course it goes up to a +4 at level 8, and that's just the power of the one song, feat, and spell use. Setting that aside for what the bard is contributing to a party's damage total, we move on to the Fascination / Suggestion abilities of the Bard's songs. All I can say is, wow. If the bard keeps up the music skill maxed with level, well, the DC save is based off of the performance roll for the will check of the listeners. Ouch. As the campaign progresses very very few things will reliably make their saves against it in normal encounters. The fact that a bard's song and diplomacy use on potentially hostile encounters is rendered useless if there's fighting going on. That much is true, but enter in the fact that a bard can access language skills, disguise use, and the disguise self / alter self spells as well as stealth skills. Oh dear. The Bard's ability to interact with humanoid enemies that might "belong" in the area just jumped up. And at that point he most definately can use his bardic abilities within a dungeon. Heaven forbid that the Bard picks up the Subsonics and Disguise Spell feats. That opens up even more doors. Use Magic Device speaks for itself. It is SOOOOO not a weak skill to have maxed out. And it's Charisma based for the bard so... yeah. The bard won't fight as well as a normal fighter, or even most priests. But his singing for the group easily covers the damage deficiency he personally might have with his weapon use. And then some. The bard can't cast like a priest or normal arcanist in terms of volume of spells... But again, Use Magic Device along with Bardic Knowledge and Bardic Songs can't be discounted from the character's magic-related contributions to the group. It's not a weak character at all. It's simply finds its strength in the hands of a player who uses every facet that the character offers.
Cadfan 09-26-05, 01:31 AM	It is sooooo so important that DMs follow that little chart about expected networth per level. Its one of the number 1 mistakes DMs make, to ignore that little chart.
WCH 09-26-05, 01:37 AM	The hell? You say it's core only, and then list like 30 things that aren't core...
q'afuu 09-26-05, 02:18 AM	It is sooooo so important that DMs follow that little chart about expected networth per level. Its one of the number 1 mistakes DMs make, to ignore that little chart. Actually, it's sooooo important he ignores it. :P Net income per level is what needs to be observed, not net worth at the end of each level. The latter allows characters to use depletable items like there's no tomorrow, which puts casters way ahead of non-casters. If a wizard (or in this case, bard) uses a scroll that should be money spent and gone. The net worth per level chart assumes the PCs will spend about 10% of what they gain on depletable items. That's bollocks. They can spend more or less than that, whatever they want, as long as they get equally much to spend instead of equally much to have.
cerberuspuppy 09-26-05, 02:40 AM	It sounds like this bard is just tweaked and has more money and gear than he really should. As to how to challenge this party? Other posters have already suggested undead, constructs, vermin, and other thing immune to mind-affecting spells. The bard can't affectt hese without using up his wands and scrolls. The problem, as you've said, is that the Rogue gets no sneak attack then, so you can't do this all the time. Another poster had a good point that numbers can often be better than one big thing. They have AOE, at least the Druid does, so they can probably handle it. Swarms might be an interesting challenge. Granted, only the druid could really hurt them. I have and idea for an encounter to really challenge this party. It might be rough, but I think it's doable with a little tweaking: Start with a 8-10th level Drow Wizard or Sorcerer. Why Drow? Because his spell resistance will make about half the spells that target him fail, and Drow get +2 to Will saves against spells and SLA in addition to the general Elf's +2 against Enchantments. His Will save will succeed most of the time, especially if he has Iron Will. It could actually reach the point where he has to roll a 1 to fail. Has this DM ruled on Magic/Psionics transparency? If he rules as I would- that Spell Resistance offers some (but not full) protection, then the Drow's SR still works against the telepaths powers, but at -4. That might give the Kalastar an edge. Now, the Drow Wizard of course has Fly, Fireball, and plenty of Dispel Magic available, as well as Animate Dead. His retinue includes a mix of about 8-10 Ogres and Ogre Zombies. With his own skill in manipulation, he has convinced the living ogres that if they defy him, he will give them a slow painful death that ends in zombiedom. The Ogres are too scared of the Drow to be talked out of serving him. The Drow himself is convinced that if he succeeds in (insert plot device here) he will obtain the favor of the matrons, and be allowed to mate with a priestess he's been trying to impress for 20 years. He cannot be swayed by any amount of talk. The fight takes place in a cavern with the old ruins of a temple in it. There are columns and such throughout, and a rogue with decent ranks in climb could climb any number of things to gain some altitude, or take a good firing position. So, the Warforged can have fun trouncing ogres, the rogue can either go after the Wizard or help with the ogres, the Telepath can use her powers to attack the Wizard, and the Druid can blast either with spells. The Wizard would start by casting Fly, going airborne with a move action, and ordering the ogres to attack. Later he could summon reinforcements (including swarms and more undead). You can summon as a standard action with Rapid Spell From Complete Arcane. He could use Magic Missles, or throw a fireball if it looks like the ogres are going to die anyway. Just keep in mind that the zombies can't move and attack in the same round and can't charge. If he thinks the ogres have it pretty much wrapped up, he might even leave the fight to look for the MacGuffin Device or whatever. A fight like this will require a little setup beforehand; a reason to go into the ruins, hints that a drow is going there, or maybe even a prior encounter with that guy, it's up to the DM how to do that. He will also have to take a good look at what spells and items the wiz has, and just how much the party can take. From how I'm describing the idea, do you think it would work well?
Cadfan 09-26-05, 02:43 AM	Umm. I don't think the point of that chart is to only check the player's networth at the exact moment they advance levels. A player who begins level 2 with 900 gp networth, spends the middle with 1,000,000 gp networth, and ends with 2,400 gp networth because he used it all up, is probably not something that the chart condones...
Minias 09-26-05, 03:27 AM	His retinue includes a mix of about 8-10 Ogres and Ogre Zombies. With his own skill in manipulation, he has convinced the living ogres that if they defy him, he will give them a slow painful death that ends in zombiedom. The Ogres are too scared of the Drow to be talked out of serving him. The Drow himself is convinced that if he succeeds in (insert plot device here) he will obtain the favor of the matrons, and be allowed to mate with a priestess he's been trying to impress for 20 years. He cannot be swayed by any amount of talk. I would never suggest to follow this sort of behind-the-scenes nerfing of the Diplomacy/Sense Motive/Intimidate skills. You could use this "with his own skill in manipulation" for every encounter. The DM just has to make up some reason why a NPC "cannot be swayed by any amount of talk" If you do use this method, perhaps some sort of opposed skill check is more appropriate instead of just deciding that a PC's skills need not apply to an encounter because some NPC "are too scared of the Drow to be talked out of serving him". The rules of Diplomacy may be overly simplistic and open for abuse by max-min'ers but that's not a good reason to disregard the rules entirely.
Glanoric 09-26-05, 03:53 AM	He just sounds like an excellent bard. However... 1. IMO, glibness is terribly, horribly broken. I'd either ban it or change it to a +1 per level instead of a flat +30. 2. Be glad he isn't exalted and using words of creation, or you'd really see a nasty bard ;)
Jancarius 09-26-05, 04:19 AM	I like that encounter, Puppy. YOINK!
q'afuu 09-26-05, 11:56 AM	Umm. I don't think the point of that chart is to only check the player's networth at the exact moment they advance levels. A player who begins level 2 with 900 gp networth, spends the middle with 1,000,000 gp networth, and ends with 2,400 gp networth because he used it all up, is probably not something that the chart condones... The only point of the chart is to check a character's net worth at the moment it's created (since you need a number anyway). After that, it becomes irrelevant as from then on the only thing to keep track of is what the PC earns and what he does with it. If one character spends it on lasting equipment and ends up close to what he would have if you did go by the table, that's great. If another spends it on depletable resources like wands, scrolls and potions and uses those up, that's great too - but then he can't expect to end up with equipment of equal value as the first. If a player begins level 2 with 900 gp net worth, he can expect to have earned about 1,500 gp by the time he reaches level 3. Whether that means he'll actually have 2,400 gp worth is entirely up to him or her. If he ends up with less because he went crazy at the scroll shop it's not for me, being the DM, to throw extra cash at him to make up the difference. There are rules for treasure and earnings. They only coincide with the table for wealth by level if the players spend exactly 10% of their earnings on depletables that they use up. I can't expect my players to stick to that 10%, no more no less, let alone that I'd tell them to. How they spend their cash is up to them.
Ninja123 09-26-05, 10:45 PM	I have a similar problem as a player myself. My characters always seem to outshine the party. I however have a problem where the GM makes too difficult encounters and players that seem to be too self effacing ion the creation of their characters. They make characters that are plainly put - useless. Maybe you have them same problem. Have you asked the player why he made his character this way? I make mine nasty and as the othjer players put it "cheesy", because the Gm overpowers everything. My characters always seem to be the ones that die first however because I feel that I have to be their saviour putting oneself in the way of harm. To depower these sorts of characters you need to change the tangent an makeup of your campaig. situations that would nullify the character or make the others shine. Diplomacy is only so good - It is fairly useless against mass opponents
Jancarius 09-27-05, 01:48 PM	I've always made my NPCs (major ones, anyway) reasonably optimized. I just assume the PCs will come up with some trick I didn't expect, and I try and make sure the BBEG can survive this.
Illion the Red 09-27-05, 02:04 PM	I've always made my NPCs (major ones, anyway) reasonably optimized. I just assume the PCs will come up with some trick I didn't expect, and I try and make sure the BBEG can survive this. Why in the world do you want your BBEGs to always survive? Let the PCs win once in a while... (my apologies if I completely misunderstood you there)
Jancarius 09-27-05, 02:37 PM	I meant to survive the 'initial introduction to character' encounter. I have this L4 Necromancer elf that just made the party run like a bunch of little girls [5 L2s... I'm so proud] about 3 times in a row with fear spells. Eventually, though, they wiped out the rather pathetic minons I was able to give her from the Robe of Bones and she had to flee. So she drank a potion of invis, and just hightailed it out of there. The party was L2, so when I wrote this encounter, I didn't expect them to have any real method of tracking an invisible elf through a crowded city, but the Warlock had See the Unseen. So I had to cause fear him again.
Skyscraper 09-27-05, 02:54 PM	I'm not sure i understand how the bard can completely outshine the entire party, unless all good equipment went to him? My impression in reading your post is that the player himself is cunning in addition to being a good role-player, thus coming up with interesting ideas all the time to bluff/charm/fascinate his way out of many situations. That's good for him and good for everyone around the table, from my standpoint. The DM should look at how the player goes about doing it, and learn from it to replicate that onto NPCs. Sky