Bard Singing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard Singing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
worldofwarcraft
05-26-04, 07:13 PM A player in my campaign (A level 1 bard) seems to think that Inspire Courage -

Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.

- that Inspire Courage can be used continuously. He compares it to just continuing to sing the song [for something like 5 hours straight, and then having to eat]. As a relatively new DM, I don't know what to do about this "loophole". Also, if he can pull off this inspire courage like he says, doesn't he need to make concentration checks to keep it going when he's being attacked, or just since he plans on singing for so long?

One more bonus thing: What's the deal with five foot steps? Can a level 1 mage really 5 foot step away from 3 1,000th level fighters and cast magic missile without getting an attack of opportunity on her? (Ditto with an archer - can he 5 foot step away and fire without attack of opportunities?)
Moblin
05-26-04, 07:27 PM Originally posted by worldofwarcraft
A player in my campaign (A level 1 bard) seems to think that Inspire Courage can be used continuously. He compares it to just continuing to sing the song [for something like 5 hours straight, and then having to eat]. As a relatively new DM, I don't know what to do about this "loophole". Also, if he can pull off this inspire courage like he says, doesn't he need to make concentration checks to keep it going when he's being attacked, or just since he plans on singing for so long?
Your player is right he can sing for as long as he like. My suggestion is to let him do that. When he's alerted the enemy of the party’s presence for the 10th time I'll assure you that the other players will start throwing dice at him. Also remember that he can't really communicate with any one as long as he sings so he can’t ask for healing or anything
Originally posted by worldofwarcraft
One more bonus thing: What's the deal with five foot steps? Can a level 1 mage really 5 foot step away from 3 1,000th level fighters and cast magic missile without getting an attack of opportunity on her? (Ditto with an archer - can he 5 foot step away and fire without attack of opportunities?)
Yep. That's what 5ft steps are all about :D
Henchcritter
05-26-04, 11:30 PM Originally posted by Moblin
Your player is right he can sing for as long as he like. My suggestion is to let him do that. When he's alerted the enemy of the party’s presence for the 10th time I'll assure you that the other players will start throwing dice at him. Also remember that he can't really communicate with any one as long as he sings so he can’t ask for healing or anything Also bards can't use the silent spell feat. So he has to interrupt singing to cast spells.
Yep. That's what 5ft steps are all about :DYes, but I belief that "take a five foot step and attack the spellworm while he's casting" is a valid action to ready. I don't have my books, so I can't double-check it.
Fixxxer
05-26-04, 11:49 PM Originally posted by Moblin
Your player is right he can sing for as long as he like. My suggestion is to let him do that. When he's alerted the enemy of the party’s presence for the 10th time I'll assure you that the other players will start throwing dice at him.

BINGO!

One more bonus thing: What's the deal with five foot steps? Can a level 1 mage really 5 foot step away from 3 1,000th level fighters and cast magic missile without getting an attack of opportunity on her? (Ditto with an archer - can he 5 foot step away and fire without attack of opportunities?)

Yes, that's how it works. However, you have to remember that no other movement can be taken in a round with a 5ft step. So, even though it's a free action to take a 5ft step, the wizard couldn't take a 5ft step back, cast the spell and then move 20ft further away. This means that after the wizard finishes casting his 1d4 damage spell, the three fighters are all going to use their actions to 5ft step and full attack him with all of their attacks per round...thus reducing him to a fine red mist. This is why the average wizard should generally stay behind someone very, very big.
crazysamaritan
05-27-04, 12:25 AM Originally posted by Moblin
Also remember that he can't really communicate with any one as long as he sings so he can’t ask for healing or anything Try country music: "And my pain, it makes me start feeling, makes me pray for some healing..." :P
Shadowmagyk
05-27-04, 01:54 AM Can a Bard sing to cast a spell? Can a Bard sing to ask for healing? I know that they can, but would it count for the inspire courage ability? It never says that one must sing a specific song in order for it to work.

If the Bard has a song that he sings, and has verses in his songs that are used ONLY when he needs to use them (spells and healing), does this count for inspire courage (or whatever he is doing with his song)?
DrMorganes
05-27-04, 02:14 AM Inspire Courage is, essentially, a recitation of some inspirational epic poem, song, or story - or one of the best pre-game pep talks ever.

If the bard interrupts this for any reason - whether it's to cast a spell, call for help, or pick his nose - that use of the ability has been used for the day and its effets expire after 5 rounds.

The verbal components of bardic magic - while song - are NOT the same as Inspire Courage. Smack your player with your dice bag for suggesting that he can cast a spell AND maintain his Inspire Courage.
Giarc
05-27-04, 04:55 AM From the 3.5 SRD:

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit.

Doesn't really say he can't communicate while inspiring courage, just not perform any magic. Funny it doesn't say anything about potions. *gargles*

Inspire Courage isn't even listed as "language dependent", just mind-affecting.
meabolex
05-27-04, 03:00 PM If the bard gets to a suitably high level, he should consider the spell "Zone of Silence."

With this spell, the bard can sing and, if the party is within 5 feet, they gain the benefits from the singing. This is useful if everyone is invisible and/or sneaking. The bard can sing when the party is within 5 feet, move away so they can't hear, and they benefit from the singing for 5 rounds. If the bard moves back within range while singing again, they get "recharged" on their singing duration. This is particularly useful for the bard because he can be invisible the whole time during this and be virtually undetectable.
ArchangelTyrael
05-30-04, 04:19 AM i dont see why you cant communicate. You could work the words into your song or something.
youcanthetoocan
05-30-04, 01:25 PM Hmm. I have a bard in my game and the player is very good. Bardic music can be a pain in the butt. I would give the call a no. He is using song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies. The epic ballad of "Cleric, come heal ass" is not going to do the trick.

And if a person sang for 6 hours straight, he would have no voice and couldnt sing for the next week. Throw that one at him.
Xyplex
05-30-04, 04:08 PM Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands).

Which brings up an interesting question ... if they were holding a magical item whose activation word was the name of some ancient king, and that name came up during the ballad, would the item be activated?

Unlike a spell which takes a short period of time to finish, I'd argue that an epic story / song is continuous, so slipping in words that aren't part of the inspiration would effectively break it for that round ... they can restart next round, of course, and just say that they paused for a second to have a drink of water, talk to a friend backstage, whatever, and the characters still have the benefit of the morale bonus.
Nightchill
05-30-04, 05:29 PM Originally posted by youcanthetoocan
The epic ballad of "Cleric, come heal ass" is not going to do the trick.

:D
Martymer
05-31-04, 11:15 AM No rule says he can't communicate. Remember that bardic music doesn't have to be sung--it can be played with a musical instrument. What's to keep the bard from talking while he plays the lute? For the sake of simplicity, the same rules apply regardless of how the bard makes his performance. However, I would definitely rule that anything he says has to be pretty short and simple, such as "heal me" or "attack *that* guy". Something that can be worked in between lines, just like a singer might squeeze in an "Everybody!" just before the refrain.

Which brings up an interesting question ... if they were holding a magical item whose activation word was the name of some ancient king, and that name came up during the ballad, would the item be activated?

Would it be activated if the word was spoken in casual conversation? Think Star Trek: Does the computer respond as soon as someone says the word "computer"? No. They have to specifically address it, in a way that makes it understand that it's being addressed. I'd say the same is true for command-activated magic items (and spells with verbal components) in D&D. Does this make sense? Hell no. But it's magic--it doesn't have to make sense. The point is, the rules say that a bard can't cast spells or use command-activated items, so unless the DM decides otherwise, he can't.
sparkster4242
06-01-04, 12:21 AM activating a magical item is almost always a standard action or something that takes even longer ... and for good reason.

think of it like this: anyone smart enough to know how to create a magic item is also smart enough to know how incredibly dangerous it would be to have them respond to casual conversation. _that_ is why magic items take so much effort to activate.

of course, you _could_ design something that responded to just any old word ... just be careful what you say around it. oh yeah, and be careful what everyone else says near it, too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
worldofwarcraft 05-26-04, 07:13 PM	A player in my campaign (A level 1 bard) seems to think that Inspire Courage - Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. - that Inspire Courage can be used continuously. He compares it to just continuing to sing the song [for something like 5 hours straight, and then having to eat]. As a relatively new DM, I don't know what to do about this "loophole". Also, if he can pull off this inspire courage like he says, doesn't he need to make concentration checks to keep it going when he's being attacked, or just since he plans on singing for so long? One more bonus thing: What's the deal with five foot steps? Can a level 1 mage really 5 foot step away from 3 1,000th level fighters and cast magic missile without getting an attack of opportunity on her? (Ditto with an archer - can he 5 foot step away and fire without attack of opportunities?)
Moblin 05-26-04, 07:27 PM	Originally posted by worldofwarcraft A player in my campaign (A level 1 bard) seems to think that Inspire Courage can be used continuously. He compares it to just continuing to sing the song [for something like 5 hours straight, and then having to eat]. As a relatively new DM, I don't know what to do about this "loophole". Also, if he can pull off this inspire courage like he says, doesn't he need to make concentration checks to keep it going when he's being attacked, or just since he plans on singing for so long? Your player is right he can sing for as long as he like. My suggestion is to let him do that. When he's alerted the enemy of the party’s presence for the 10th time I'll assure you that the other players will start throwing dice at him. Also remember that he can't really communicate with any one as long as he sings so he can’t ask for healing or anything Originally posted by worldofwarcraft One more bonus thing: What's the deal with five foot steps? Can a level 1 mage really 5 foot step away from 3 1,000th level fighters and cast magic missile without getting an attack of opportunity on her? (Ditto with an archer - can he 5 foot step away and fire without attack of opportunities?) Yep. That's what 5ft steps are all about :D
Henchcritter 05-26-04, 11:30 PM	Originally posted by Moblin Your player is right he can sing for as long as he like. My suggestion is to let him do that. When he's alerted the enemy of the party’s presence for the 10th time I'll assure you that the other players will start throwing dice at him. Also remember that he can't really communicate with any one as long as he sings so he can’t ask for healing or anything Also bards can't use the silent spell feat. So he has to interrupt singing to cast spells. Yep. That's what 5ft steps are all about :DYes, but I belief that "take a five foot step and attack the spellworm while he's casting" is a valid action to ready. I don't have my books, so I can't double-check it.
Fixxxer 05-26-04, 11:49 PM	Originally posted by Moblin Your player is right he can sing for as long as he like. My suggestion is to let him do that. When he's alerted the enemy of the party’s presence for the 10th time I'll assure you that the other players will start throwing dice at him. BINGO! One more bonus thing: What's the deal with five foot steps? Can a level 1 mage really 5 foot step away from 3 1,000th level fighters and cast magic missile without getting an attack of opportunity on her? (Ditto with an archer - can he 5 foot step away and fire without attack of opportunities?) Yes, that's how it works. However, you have to remember that no other movement can be taken in a round with a 5ft step. So, even though it's a free action to take a 5ft step, the wizard couldn't take a 5ft step back, cast the spell and then move 20ft further away. This means that after the wizard finishes casting his 1d4 damage spell, the three fighters are all going to use their actions to 5ft step and full attack him with all of their attacks per round...thus reducing him to a fine red mist. This is why the average wizard should generally stay behind someone very, very big.
crazysamaritan 05-27-04, 12:25 AM	Originally posted by Moblin Also remember that he can't really communicate with any one as long as he sings so he can’t ask for healing or anything Try country music: "And my pain, it makes me start feeling, makes me pray for some healing..." :P
Shadowmagyk 05-27-04, 01:54 AM	Can a Bard sing to cast a spell? Can a Bard sing to ask for healing? I know that they can, but would it count for the inspire courage ability? It never says that one must sing a specific song in order for it to work. If the Bard has a song that he sings, and has verses in his songs that are used ONLY when he needs to use them (spells and healing), does this count for inspire courage (or whatever he is doing with his song)?
DrMorganes 05-27-04, 02:14 AM	Inspire Courage is, essentially, a recitation of some inspirational epic poem, song, or story - or one of the best pre-game pep talks ever. If the bard interrupts this for any reason - whether it's to cast a spell, call for help, or pick his nose - that use of the ability has been used for the day and its effets expire after 5 rounds. The verbal components of bardic magic - while song - are NOT the same as Inspire Courage. Smack your player with your dice bag for suggesting that he can cast a spell AND maintain his Inspire Courage.
Giarc 05-27-04, 04:55 AM	From the 3.5 SRD: Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Doesn't really say he can't communicate while inspiring courage, just not perform any magic. Funny it doesn't say anything about potions. gargles Inspire Courage isn't even listed as "language dependent", just mind-affecting.
meabolex 05-27-04, 03:00 PM	If the bard gets to a suitably high level, he should consider the spell "Zone of Silence." With this spell, the bard can sing and, if the party is within 5 feet, they gain the benefits from the singing. This is useful if everyone is invisible and/or sneaking. The bard can sing when the party is within 5 feet, move away so they can't hear, and they benefit from the singing for 5 rounds. If the bard moves back within range while singing again, they get "recharged" on their singing duration. This is particularly useful for the bard because he can be invisible the whole time during this and be virtually undetectable.
ArchangelTyrael 05-30-04, 04:19 AM	i dont see why you cant communicate. You could work the words into your song or something.
youcanthetoocan 05-30-04, 01:25 PM	Hmm. I have a bard in my game and the player is very good. Bardic music can be a pain in the butt. I would give the call a no. He is using song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies. The epic ballad of "Cleric, come heal ass" is not going to do the trick. And if a person sang for 6 hours straight, he would have no voice and couldnt sing for the next week. Throw that one at him.
Xyplex 05-30-04, 04:08 PM	Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). Which brings up an interesting question ... if they were holding a magical item whose activation word was the name of some ancient king, and that name came up during the ballad, would the item be activated? Unlike a spell which takes a short period of time to finish, I'd argue that an epic story / song is continuous, so slipping in words that aren't part of the inspiration would effectively break it for that round ... they can restart next round, of course, and just say that they paused for a second to have a drink of water, talk to a friend backstage, whatever, and the characters still have the benefit of the morale bonus.
Nightchill 05-30-04, 05:29 PM	Originally posted by youcanthetoocan The epic ballad of "Cleric, come heal ass" is not going to do the trick. :D
Martymer 05-31-04, 11:15 AM	No rule says he can't communicate. Remember that bardic music doesn't have to be sung--it can be played with a musical instrument. What's to keep the bard from talking while he plays the lute? For the sake of simplicity, the same rules apply regardless of how the bard makes his performance. However, I would definitely rule that anything he says has to be pretty short and simple, such as "heal me" or "attack that guy". Something that can be worked in between lines, just like a singer might squeeze in an "Everybody!" just before the refrain. Which brings up an interesting question ... if they were holding a magical item whose activation word was the name of some ancient king, and that name came up during the ballad, would the item be activated? Would it be activated if the word was spoken in casual conversation? Think Star Trek: Does the computer respond as soon as someone says the word "computer"? No. They have to specifically address it, in a way that makes it understand that it's being addressed. I'd say the same is true for command-activated magic items (and spells with verbal components) in D&D. Does this make sense? Hell no. But it's magic--it doesn't have to make sense. The point is, the rules say that a bard can't cast spells or use command-activated items, so unless the DM decides otherwise, he can't.
sparkster4242 06-01-04, 12:21 AM	activating a magical item is almost always a standard action or something that takes even longer ... and for good reason. think of it like this: anyone smart enough to know how to create a magic item is also smart enough to know how incredibly dangerous it would be to have them respond to casual conversation. _that_ is why magic items take so much effort to activate. of course, you _could_ design something that responded to just any old word ... just be careful what you say around it. oh yeah, and be careful what everyone else says near it, too.