bard spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

bard spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rone_leah
05-03-06, 03:29 PM I want to make a bard to make evocation spells for himself so he can fight melee and cast damage spells with out prestige classes or multiclassing. Is this possible?
:tantrum: :help: :help: :tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum:
Board_Rider
05-03-06, 03:49 PM By "make" do you mean design new spells or cast them? As for casting them, no, unless there are spells in the Spell Compendium that I haven't seen or I am forgetting something. Designing them should be a collaborative effort between you and your DM.
The-Half
05-03-06, 03:49 PM It's your campaign..........you're the DM..............anything is possible!

But remember, they took those away since 2nd edition for a reason..... or several reasons really.
So in order to not unbalance the bard I would recommend the following:

No fireballs or lighting bolts etc; let's let the sorcerer & wizard have some things all to them selves.
If you're gonna let him have Magic Missle and such..... I would make it a 2nd or 3rd level bard spell in order to not un-balance this already "jack-of-all-trades/ master-of-none" character.
I'd tweak alot of other spells (flame arrow, cone of cold, etc;) to not only be higher level bard spells than wizard/ sorcerer spells, but also to be spells of a musical nature (sonic arrow, cone of noise, etc) doing sonic damage instead of cold/ flame etc;
Just my idea...........
spoogemonkey
05-03-06, 05:53 PM Cone of Ashlee Simpson! 10d6 sonic damage, Fort save 16 to avoid upchucking
Senevri
05-03-06, 05:56 PM Shadow Evocation. Shout.
Silverstream
05-03-06, 08:22 PM It is possible, to a degree. When learning new spells for their spell level, while it is the standard for Bards (and sorcerers) to take spells on their spell list, it is also possible (with the DM's permission) to grab an "unusual spell." This is mentioned in brief on page 179 of the PHB, under "Adding spells to a sorcerer's or Bard's repertoire." Essentially, your Bard would have to have come across the spell or else have studied it somehow.

For a more limited progression, you could use the other rules of researching spells. Basically, the character has to pay 1,000 gp per spell level and spend 1 week per spell level in game time researching the spell. (Don't remember which book that was from...)

I wouldn't worry too much about taking up the Wizard's or Sorcerer's role. Bards don't get many spells per day, and they learn them at later levels than the primary casters. An 8th level bard, for example, might be able to shoot off a pair of lightning bolts. The wizard can blast out 4 of them, along with 3 4th level spells. Six and four for the sorcerer, respectively.

Still, bards are not intended to be the primary evocationist, so a limit is good. As The-Half mentioned, altering the spell elements to be sonic is a nice way to add the bardic touch. You might consider raising each respective spell up a level, too (a fireball being a 4th level spell for the bard, I mean). 2 or 3 levels seems a bit much. You could also put a limit of 1 non-bard spell per spell level that the bard can cast. It isn't easy deviating from type. If your party lacks a good arcane damage caster, though, it should be a bit easier to achieve.
BRJN
05-03-06, 09:31 PM My thought (and I play a Bard) is that you should limit him to Sonic spells, and they should have his instrument as a material focus.

I have no problem with giving him a spell of Awful Racket (does 1d6 in a cone-shaped area in front of him, or be deafened for same number of rounds if you make a dodge save) usable as many times a day as his current level. But I have never playtested such a thing and have no idea if it will wreck the game for him or others.

Look through the Monster Manual for all the creatures that use sound-based abilities. If the PC can survive being exposed to them, he should be clever enough to later research a spell (or use up one of his daily doses of Bardic Abilities) that does the same sort of thing.
Candide
05-03-06, 10:16 PM Complete Arcane(and thusly, Spell Compendium) has Resonating Bolt. It deals 1d4/level, 60 foot line. It's a 4th level bard spell. There's Dissonant Chord, which deals 1d8/2 levels, 10 radius burst. It should be in completel adventurer.

To me, bards shouldn't cast lots of damaging spells. It's too direct. Bards seem more subtle to me. Their bardic music is really good stuff. You don't need big honking area effect spells with a 3.x bard. I play a 9th level Bard in a game and here's how my combat buffs break down:
Round 1:Cast Haste(standard action), cast Inspirational Boost(swift action), Inspire Courage(free action). Total of +5 to hit, +4 damage, +1 to AC/Ref saves, +30' movement, and an additional attack if using full-attack action.
Round 2: Stop singing(effects last 10 rounds due to Lingering Song), cast Tactical precision*(standard action), and Inspire Greatness in a fighter type. *gives bonuses if people are flanking. Total bonus of +9 to hit, +1d6+4 damage, +1 to AC/Ref saves, +30' movement, and an additional attack if using full-attack action. Fighter type(who I gave inspire greatness to) has +11 to hit, +1d6+4 damage, +1 to AC/Ref saves/Fort saves, +30' movement, +2d10 temporary hit dice, Con bonus for HD added as well, and an additional attack if using full-attack action.

Next level I'll get another 3rd level spell. Seems I'm going to take Slow. Party Hasted, vs. enemies Slowed.
Silverstream
05-03-06, 10:31 PM To me, bards shouldn't cast lots of damaging spells. It's too direct. Bards seem more subtle to me.

Agreed. I realize now that I didn't indicate that well in my post. The one time I played a bard I chose support spells like haste and disabling ones like glitterdust and Tasha's hideous laughter. True, they don't have the awe-inspiring effect like a 10d6 fireball to a lot of targets, but the solo warrior who's been Tasha'd for a total of 8 rounds is just as thoroughly smote (Smiten? Smoted?).

But, in a group that doesn't have a good arcane caster, having the bard help fulfill a role by learning a single spell (at a spell level penalty) can be allright, in my own experience.

Which is almost what the two example spells you gave us indicate. The former is like a weaker lightning, the latter, well, more like an area effect searing light from the cleric list. Complete Adventurer? My roommate's got that. I'll check that out and point it out to him (as he's the one playing the bard in my current group). He's been mentioning wanting more direct combat effectiveness.

Out of curiosity, how do you get Inspire Courage to be a free action? A feat?
Candide
05-03-06, 10:43 PM bah! is my face red. It's a standard action. There was something in the game I'm in though that changed that...<scratches head>
Silverstream
05-03-06, 10:49 PM bah! is my face red. It's a standard action. There was something in the game I'm in though that changed that...<scratches head>

Really? Ah well.

Still, engineering things like this is what my fellow PC's come to me for. Wouldn't take much to a make a feat to allow (Inspire only) Bardic music to be used as... perhaps a swift action, for double the normal bardic music usages.

Maybe your character is singing, so your DM ruled that you didn't need the standard action?
Pandaemoni
05-03-06, 11:56 PM Depending on how you rule on the feat, Extra Spell from the Complete Arcane (read literally) would allow a bard to take any spell he or she desired, including the classic "damage" spells.
rone_leah
05-04-06, 03:32 PM first off not the dm but thought that this would be the best place to post it.

The Half, guilty I am trying to bring back the second edition bard some what but not totally because the bard is a jack of all trades but, they didn't say he suck at it I just think he got screwed on some of the damage spells he gets (ex) sound burst 1d8 plus stun just sucks and the other mages have scorching ray 4d6 a ray thats 8 to 24 and the bard's a level higher than the wizard and equal to the sor.

Senevri, maybe I'll do it but making two saves is more risky right now. :chicken:

agreeing with silverstream :D

BRJN like the thought of the instrument focus, but what if he sings?

Tasha's hideous laughter pcs or npcs have great will saves and they get a +4 bonus if not of my race and usually we don't have the same number of legs.

what I really am trying to do is balance the loss of magic weapon and its big bro :tantrum: :tantrum:

and another question to see if this is playable and if it is other question is null-in-void
can an illusion spell say silent image create magic missle and fool an enemy into thinking he is hurt?
Witch
05-04-06, 03:39 PM can an illusion spell say silent image create magic missle and fool an enemy into thinking he is hurt?
Maybe. But that wouldn't really hurt him in any way.

If you want damage spells as a Bard, become a Sublime Chord.
rone_leah
05-05-06, 02:45 PM but if I make him think he's dead from damage I can coup de grace him.
:bounce:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rone_leah 05-03-06, 03:29 PM	I want to make a bard to make evocation spells for himself so he can fight melee and cast damage spells with out prestige classes or multiclassing. Is this possible? :tantrum: :help: :help: :tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum:
Board_Rider 05-03-06, 03:49 PM	By "make" do you mean design new spells or cast them? As for casting them, no, unless there are spells in the Spell Compendium that I haven't seen or I am forgetting something. Designing them should be a collaborative effort between you and your DM.
The-Half 05-03-06, 03:49 PM	It's your campaign..........you're the DM..............anything is possible! But remember, they took those away since 2nd edition for a reason..... or several reasons really. So in order to not unbalance the bard I would recommend the following: No fireballs or lighting bolts etc; let's let the sorcerer & wizard have some things all to them selves. If you're gonna let him have Magic Missle and such..... I would make it a 2nd or 3rd level bard spell in order to not un-balance this already "jack-of-all-trades/ master-of-none" character. I'd tweak alot of other spells (flame arrow, cone of cold, etc;) to not only be higher level bard spells than wizard/ sorcerer spells, but also to be spells of a musical nature (sonic arrow, cone of noise, etc) doing sonic damage instead of cold/ flame etc; Just my idea...........
spoogemonkey 05-03-06, 05:53 PM	Cone of Ashlee Simpson! 10d6 sonic damage, Fort save 16 to avoid upchucking
Senevri 05-03-06, 05:56 PM	Shadow Evocation. Shout.
Silverstream 05-03-06, 08:22 PM	It is possible, to a degree. When learning new spells for their spell level, while it is the standard for Bards (and sorcerers) to take spells on their spell list, it is also possible (with the DM's permission) to grab an "unusual spell." This is mentioned in brief on page 179 of the PHB, under "Adding spells to a sorcerer's or Bard's repertoire." Essentially, your Bard would have to have come across the spell or else have studied it somehow. For a more limited progression, you could use the other rules of researching spells. Basically, the character has to pay 1,000 gp per spell level and spend 1 week per spell level in game time researching the spell. (Don't remember which book that was from...) I wouldn't worry too much about taking up the Wizard's or Sorcerer's role. Bards don't get many spells per day, and they learn them at later levels than the primary casters. An 8th level bard, for example, might be able to shoot off a pair of lightning bolts. The wizard can blast out 4 of them, along with 3 4th level spells. Six and four for the sorcerer, respectively. Still, bards are not intended to be the primary evocationist, so a limit is good. As The-Half mentioned, altering the spell elements to be sonic is a nice way to add the bardic touch. You might consider raising each respective spell up a level, too (a fireball being a 4th level spell for the bard, I mean). 2 or 3 levels seems a bit much. You could also put a limit of 1 non-bard spell per spell level that the bard can cast. It isn't easy deviating from type. If your party lacks a good arcane damage caster, though, it should be a bit easier to achieve.
BRJN 05-03-06, 09:31 PM	My thought (and I play a Bard) is that you should limit him to Sonic spells, and they should have his instrument as a material focus. I have no problem with giving him a spell of Awful Racket (does 1d6 in a cone-shaped area in front of him, or be deafened for same number of rounds if you make a dodge save) usable as many times a day as his current level. But I have never playtested such a thing and have no idea if it will wreck the game for him or others. Look through the Monster Manual for all the creatures that use sound-based abilities. If the PC can survive being exposed to them, he should be clever enough to later research a spell (or use up one of his daily doses of Bardic Abilities) that does the same sort of thing.
Candide 05-03-06, 10:16 PM	Complete Arcane(and thusly, Spell Compendium) has Resonating Bolt. It deals 1d4/level, 60 foot line. It's a 4th level bard spell. There's Dissonant Chord, which deals 1d8/2 levels, 10 radius burst. It should be in completel adventurer. To me, bards shouldn't cast lots of damaging spells. It's too direct. Bards seem more subtle to me. Their bardic music is really good stuff. You don't need big honking area effect spells with a 3.x bard. I play a 9th level Bard in a game and here's how my combat buffs break down: Round 1:Cast Haste(standard action), cast Inspirational Boost(swift action), Inspire Courage(free action). Total of +5 to hit, +4 damage, +1 to AC/Ref saves, +30' movement, and an additional attack if using full-attack action. Round 2: Stop singing(effects last 10 rounds due to Lingering Song), cast Tactical precision(standard action), and Inspire Greatness in a fighter type. gives bonuses if people are flanking. Total bonus of +9 to hit, +1d6+4 damage, +1 to AC/Ref saves, +30' movement, and an additional attack if using full-attack action. Fighter type(who I gave inspire greatness to) has +11 to hit, +1d6+4 damage, +1 to AC/Ref saves/Fort saves, +30' movement, +2d10 temporary hit dice, Con bonus for HD added as well, and an additional attack if using full-attack action. Next level I'll get another 3rd level spell. Seems I'm going to take Slow. Party Hasted, vs. enemies Slowed.
Silverstream 05-03-06, 10:31 PM	To me, bards shouldn't cast lots of damaging spells. It's too direct. Bards seem more subtle to me. Agreed. I realize now that I didn't indicate that well in my post. The one time I played a bard I chose support spells like haste and disabling ones like glitterdust and Tasha's hideous laughter. True, they don't have the awe-inspiring effect like a 10d6 fireball to a lot of targets, but the solo warrior who's been Tasha'd for a total of 8 rounds is just as thoroughly smote (Smiten? Smoted?). But, in a group that doesn't have a good arcane caster, having the bard help fulfill a role by learning a single spell (at a spell level penalty) can be allright, in my own experience. Which is almost what the two example spells you gave us indicate. The former is like a weaker lightning, the latter, well, more like an area effect searing light from the cleric list. Complete Adventurer? My roommate's got that. I'll check that out and point it out to him (as he's the one playing the bard in my current group). He's been mentioning wanting more direct combat effectiveness. Out of curiosity, how do you get Inspire Courage to be a free action? A feat?
Candide 05-03-06, 10:43 PM	bah! is my face red. It's a standard action. There was something in the game I'm in though that changed that...<scratches head>
Silverstream 05-03-06, 10:49 PM	bah! is my face red. It's a standard action. There was something in the game I'm in though that changed that...<scratches head> Really? Ah well. Still, engineering things like this is what my fellow PC's come to me for. Wouldn't take much to a make a feat to allow (Inspire only) Bardic music to be used as... perhaps a swift action, for double the normal bardic music usages. Maybe your character is singing, so your DM ruled that you didn't need the standard action?
Pandaemoni 05-03-06, 11:56 PM	Depending on how you rule on the feat, Extra Spell from the Complete Arcane (read literally) would allow a bard to take any spell he or she desired, including the classic "damage" spells.
rone_leah 05-04-06, 03:32 PM	first off not the dm but thought that this would be the best place to post it. The Half, guilty I am trying to bring back the second edition bard some what but not totally because the bard is a jack of all trades but, they didn't say he suck at it I just think he got screwed on some of the damage spells he gets (ex) sound burst 1d8 plus stun just sucks and the other mages have scorching ray 4d6 a ray thats 8 to 24 and the bard's a level higher than the wizard and equal to the sor. Senevri, maybe I'll do it but making two saves is more risky right now. :chicken: agreeing with silverstream :D BRJN like the thought of the instrument focus, but what if he sings? Tasha's hideous laughter pcs or npcs have great will saves and they get a +4 bonus if not of my race and usually we don't have the same number of legs. what I really am trying to do is balance the loss of magic weapon and its big bro :tantrum: :tantrum: and another question to see if this is playable and if it is other question is null-in-void can an illusion spell say silent image create magic missle and fool an enemy into thinking he is hurt?
Witch 05-04-06, 03:39 PM	can an illusion spell say silent image create magic missle and fool an enemy into thinking he is hurt? Maybe. But that wouldn't really hurt him in any way. If you want damage spells as a Bard, become a Sublime Chord.
rone_leah 05-05-06, 02:45 PM	but if I make him think he's dead from damage I can coup de grace him. :bounce: