Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jacilla 12-24-05, 04:53 PM	A question has come up in our game. When does the Bard not have to use ‘Use Magic Device’? I can find when they do, but nowhere where it says for instance; A Bard with a Cure Light Wounds spell on their spell list does not have to use ‘Use Magic Device’ to use a wand of Cure Light Wounds. Does anyone know where it does say something like this. The fact that it’s implied just won’t work, I need it in black and white. Thanks.
pres_man 12-24-05, 05:03 PM	Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. So anytime a spell is on the list of a user of a wand (and the user knows the spell of the wand), then they can just use the wand and don't need to use the UMD skill. Now if they didn't know what spell was on the wand they might need to use the UMD skill first to find out.
Jacilla 12-24-05, 05:07 PM	Yes, I read those, the idea is implied. I need to find where it says absolutely, the character, Bard or whatever does not need to use 'Use Magic Device' to use a wand when the spell is on their spell list. The fact that the DMG and PHB both imply it isn't good enough. Any other takers?
pres_man 12-24-05, 05:26 PM	Use a Wand: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs. I think you are assuming that using the UMD skill is the standard way of using a wand. This is incorrect, the standard way is to use the spell trigger method and having the spell on your spell list. If you do not have the spell on your spell list, you can try to use the UMD skill to immulate it. You aren't going to find something that says what you want, because it is obvious. It's like saying, where does it say that urine doesn't do acid damage and that I can't kill a troll by peeing on him. Nowhere does it say that, nor would it.
Lord Ian Stark 12-24-05, 05:52 PM	Yes, I read those, the idea is implied. I need to find where it says absolutely, the character, Bard or whatever does not need to use 'Use Magic Device' to use a wand when the spell is on their spell list. The fact that the DMG and PHB both imply it isn't good enough. Any other takers? ??? It says straight up that a wand uses the spell trigger activation method and "Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell." If these rules aren't definite enough I hope you don't start asking about the alignment side of D&D and wanting straight answers. ;)
Always-Late 12-24-05, 06:44 PM	Think of it this way. A cleric can use a CLW wand, and a sorceror can use a wand of magic missile without UMD checks. It's not even a class skill for clerics or sorcerors. If this wasn't the case, wands would be much, much, much rarer, because casters couldn't use the wands they made, which is just stupid. (If your players don't think this is the case, your game is in trouble.) Suppose a cleric put cross-class ranks in UMD. Does he suddenly lose the ability to use a CLW wand without checks? Of course not. Thus, bards can use a CLW wand with no problems.
allenchan 12-24-05, 07:43 PM	How the hell is it implied? That's as black and white as the English language can get.
kajinoryu 12-24-05, 08:44 PM	Closest thing you'll probably get, aside from the description for using wands, under the UMD description: Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment. 1ST-LEVEL BARD SPELLS ... Cure Light Wounds:... ... Now... why would you have to pretend as if you had a spell ability, when you clearly do have it, and therefore do not need to emulate another ability, class feature, race, or alignment?
Jacilla 12-24-05, 11:35 PM	Thank you all for responding. It's as I feared. I've been DMing for years and am now playing in a game where the DM has my Bard perform a 'Use Magic Device' check to use a Cure Light Wounds wand. Not only is the spell on the Bard spell list, but my Bard also has the spell availiable for use. I guess I'll just have to live with it. Thanks again. I’d like to add that the tone of some of the responses (You know who you are.) were less than kind. I see no reason, when someone comes to these boards for help or advise, for the others to treat them as if they were morons. The fact that a Bard does not need to employ Use Magic Device is only implied in the DMG and PHB. Under the Use Magic Device description in the PHB it only states when you do need to use the skill, not when you don’t. All I asked was if someone else had found it stated another way somewhere else. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. The answer should have been … no, it’s only implied in the rules, not stated outright. Which is fine, that’s the way it is and that’s what I’ll have to work with. As to why the DM in this particular game chooses to have the Bard make those checks, well, because nowhere in the rules does it say they don’t have to. See how it works people. Thanks again and have a nice day.
Lord Ian Stark 12-24-05, 11:52 PM	Thank you all for responding. It's as I feared. I've been DMing for years and am now playing in a game where the DM has my Bard perform a 'Use Magic Device' check to use a Cure Light Wounds wand. Not only is the spell on the Bard spell list, but my Bard also has the spell availiable for use. I guess I'll just have to live with it. Thanks again. Show him this thread. ;)
Seen 12-25-05, 12:56 AM	As to why the DM in this particular game chooses to have the Bard make those checks, well, because nowhere in the rules does it say they don’t have to. See how it works people. Thanks again and have a nice day. And where, pray tell, does it say that a Cleric doesn't have to use UMD to use a wand of CLW? And where as well, does it say that a Wizard doesn't have to use UMD to use a wand of magic missile? (those examples were brought up earlier). Wizard, Cleric, Bard - these are all spellcasting classes. They all have spell lists, and they all memorize or pray for spells. And in the same way, they can all use wands for the spells they have. But in addition the Bard can take Use Magic Device, so that he can use items not normally available to a bard! So, in fact, the Bard is BETTER at using magic wands than most other spellcasters. In the same way as any other caster, a Paladin can use a wand of Cure Light Wounds as well (once they can cast it). Make sure your DM (who can't understand plain english, apparently) knows this too. Just to show you how it is not just implied: If all A's are B's, and all B's are C's, then are all A's also C's? The answer is yes. If all characters can activate a spell trigger item which uses a spell on their spell list, and Bards have spell lists, then can Bards use spell trigger items that use a spell on their list? The answer is also, logically (not IMPLIED) yes. Now, to be perfectly clear (so as not to show any false implications) I am not posting this to try to be 'less than kind', I am posting this to show you how the PHB presents a clear and logical answer to your question which you simply overlooked multiple times.
pres_man 12-25-05, 01:14 AM	The fact that a Bard does not need to employ Use Magic Device is only implied in the DMG and PHB. Under the Use Magic Device description in the PHB it only states when you do need to use the skill, not when you don’t. All I asked was if someone else had found it stated another way somewhere else. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. The answer should have been … no, it’s only implied in the rules, not stated outright. Which is fine, that’s the way it is and that’s what I’ll have to work with. It is implied only in so much as it states the rules for using wands clearly, for all individuals with a spell list including bards (by the way, paladins and rangers do not have to wait till they can cast spells to be able to use wands, read the rules again Seen). The rules are not going to be stated with what you don't have to do, they are going to state what you have to do. So if the bard description and the use magic device description and the wand description never say a bard has to use the UMD skill to use a wand, then they don't always have. Please tell your DM to read this thread and if he has questions on logic and understanding to please post, because he sounds like he's either pretty lacking in the comprehension catagory or he's trying to give you the shaft with your character. Which is really surprising because bards are far from being over powered.
Seen 12-25-05, 01:19 AM	(by the way, paladins and rangers do not have to wait till they can cast spells to be able to use wands, read the rules again Seen). Point for you ;) Does that mean a 1st level wizard could use a wand of Meteor Swarm? (granted.. he'd have to find it first.)
Pandaemoni 12-25-05, 01:22 AM	The Player's Handbook clearly states, in the UMD description (on pg 86): Use a Wand. Normally to use a wand you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list.The use of this particular skill [UMD] allows you to use a wand as if you had the spell on your class spell list. I don't see much ambiguity there. "Normally" (i.e. without using UMD) having the spell on your class spell liust is what lets you use a wand. Having UMD just gives you a way to use a wand when that is not the case. If there is another sensible reading of those two sentences, I don't see it.
pres_man 12-25-05, 01:39 AM	Point for you ;) Does that mean a 1st level wizard could use a wand of Meteor Swarm? (granted.. he'd have to find it first.) That's easy, the answer is no. That is because ... A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. ;) But for any wand with a spell that was 4th level or lower then yes they could.
pres_man 12-25-05, 01:43 AM	I wonder Jacilla, is your DM feeling this way because he thinks that the wand is divine, while your bard casts arcane spells. This might be understandable, but it is wrong. If this is the case he is mixing up scrolls and wands, he needs to read the sections on both (and rods and staffs to be safe) again.
Seen 12-25-05, 01:45 AM	A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. It's funny because I actually knew that (one of my current characters crafts his own wands, for crying out loud), but just the thought of being able to cast something higher than you should sent my mind in the most power-mongering direction it would go (9th level spells ;)). But that still means that if I took one level in cleric I could use a wand with cure critical wounds? Excellent :D
pres_man 12-25-05, 01:50 AM	I find it extremely useful for the ranger and paladin, due to the fact it takes so long for them to get spells and by the time they get them, they are practically worthless. If they have a wand of them, it allows them access to the spells much earlier.
Nom 12-25-05, 09:25 AM	In the same way as any other caster, a Paladin can use a wand of Cure Light Wounds as well (once they can cast it).This isn't true. From DMG pg 213:Specifically, anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd level paladin.)If a wand's spell is on your spell list then you meet the pre-reqs to trigger that wand, regardless of whether you can cast the spell. No exception is given for bards, paladins, or any other class you care to name.
Fixxxer 12-25-05, 05:18 PM	This isn't true. From DMG pg 213:If a wand's spell is on your spell list then you meet the pre-reqs to trigger that wand, regardless of whether you can cast the spell. True...with the one exception being that a specialist wizard cannot use a wand or similar item that uses a spell from a prohibited school.
StormCrow42 12-25-05, 05:31 PM	True...with the one exception being that a specialist wizard cannot use a wand or similar item that uses a spell from a prohibited school. Yes, because by specilizing, they REMOVE THEIR PROHIBITED SCHOOLS FROM THEIR CLASS LIST. So it's not any sort of exception, it's the rules working as normal.
Lord Ian Stark 12-25-05, 05:47 PM	""TANGENT ALERT!" 3.5 Specializing Wizards is a waste. Don't even get a +1 to caster level for the specialized school but you lose two whole schools!?! Hmm, I am studying one certain school very intricately that I lose two other schools in the mean time. What's my reward? One extra friggen spell a level and they aren't even more powerful then the other schools I cast. :confused: :uh-huh: :thinks:
Kuronue 12-25-05, 06:53 PM	""TANGENT ALERT!" 3.5 Specializing Wizards is a waste. Don't even get a +1 to caster level for the specialized school but you lose two whole schools!?! Hmm, I am studying one certain school very intricately that I lose two other schools in the mean time. What's my reward? One extra friggen spell a level and they aren't even more powerful then the other schools I cast. :confused: :uh-huh: :thinks: at risk of deraliing, that's why I never play wizards. I never find myself needing more spells than a sorcerer can get, and the bonus of specialization really doesn't counterbalance for me the downside of prepping spells. But that's a personal taste.
Fixxxer 12-25-05, 07:27 PM	Yes, because by specilizing, they REMOVE THEIR PROHIBITED SCHOOLS FROM THEIR CLASS LIST. So it's not any sort of exception, it's the rules working as normal. I suppose that's one way of looking at it.
Nom 12-25-05, 11:00 PM	I suppose that's one way of looking at it.It's actually a very good way of looking at it, though not exactly what the rules say. As for specialisation, it will grant you between +100% and +17% extra spells per level, depending on your level, Int score, and which spells are being considered. For example, a 9th level specialist with Int 18 receives double the normal number of 5th level spells (2 vs 1), 33% more 4th level spells (4 vs 3), 25% more 3rd level spells (5 vs 4) and cantrips, and 20% more 2nd and 1st level spells (6 vs 5), a unweighted total of ~27% more spells per day. The higher the ability scores and the more magic items available the less attractive specialisation seems.
Lord Ian Stark 12-25-05, 11:12 PM	As for specialisation... The higher the ability scores and the more magic items available the less attractive specialisation seems. Exactly. Basically Rings of Wizardry gives you all the bonuses a specialized wizard ever gets without the harsh restrictive penalty of losing important spells from two schools. Specialization was always a flavor thing but 3.X has hurt it to just an NPC thing IMO.
janusthinker 12-26-05, 01:13 AM	But that still means that if I took one level in cleric I could use a wand with cure critical wounds? Excellent :D Additionally, if you have one level in a spellcasting class, you can use staffs, so (again, assuming you could find one) you could indeed use a staff with Meteor Swarm in it.
ressurrector 12-26-05, 04:34 AM	I'm not sure about 3.5, but I remember it being stated in 3.0 that if you were not high enough level to cast the spell in the wand (I.E. it is on your class spell list, but you do not have access to it yet) then you must make a CASTER LVL CHECK to see if you can activate the wand, or if a mishap occurs. I think it was in the DMG if anyone wants to look. As far as using a wand of CLW as a barb, I can understand your DM making you use UMD if a cleric created the item, since Arcane and Divine spells are inherantly different in form.
Nom 12-26-05, 06:52 AM	I think it was in the DMG if anyone wants to look.Perhaps you should have. Everything you said explicitly applies to scrolls (spell completion), and explicitly does not apply to wands (spell trigger).
Despana 12-26-05, 08:30 AM	I'm not sure about 3.5, but I remember it being stated in 3.0 that if you were not high enough level to cast the spell in the wand (I.E. it is on your class spell list, but you do not have access to it yet) then you must make a CASTER LVL CHECK to see if you can activate the wand, or if a mishap occurs. I think it was in the DMG if anyone wants to look. That's for scrolls, not wands. Edit: *whaps self* always read the last post. *whap*
Horatio Hornblower 12-26-05, 09:08 AM	As for specialisation, it will grant you between +100% and +17% extra spells per level, depending on your level, Int score, and which spells are being considered. For example, a 9th level specialist with Int 18 receives double the normal number of 5th level spells (2 vs 1), 33% more 4th level spells (4 vs 3), 25% more 3rd level spells (5 vs 4) and cantrips, and 20% more 2nd and 1st level spells (6 vs 5), a unweighted total of ~27% more spells per day. The higher the ability scores and the more magic items available the less attractive specialisation seems. Specialization is great for low level or low magic campaigns. You haven't had the chance to increase your character's Int by more than one and there isn't a lot of spells or magic items to find. That's when the extra spells per level become nice to have. In standard and high level games the prohibited schools can be a problem. In that case you're probably better off playing a sorcerer if you don't want to play a non-specialized wizard.
Horatio Hornblower 12-26-05, 09:19 AM	As far as using a wand of CLW as a barb, I can understand your DM making you use UMD if a cleric created the item, since Arcane and Divine spells are inherantly different in form. Spells are not listed by arcane or divine as they were in previous editions. A wand isn't listed as being arcane or divine. It doesn't matter who made the wand. What matters is if the spell is on the character's class list. A DM could house rule the difference for flavor reasons. Depending on how magic works in their campaign it would be reasonable.
ressurrector 12-26-05, 04:42 PM	Perhaps you should have. Everything you said explicitly applies to scrolls (spell completion), and explicitly does not apply to wands (spell trigger). Whoops, my mistake then.
Longarms 12-26-05, 05:41 PM	" What matters is if the spell is on the character's class list." So, I think I understand it, just checking. It doesn't matter if the bard in question has a CHA of 9 and would not be able to cast any spells on his spell list. He can still use the wand without a use magic item check. I ask this because on of my players, who has a CHA of 9, is thinking of taking one level of bard. With a CHA that low, she wouldn't be able to cast the 0 level spells that come with the 1st level (no big deal). But, if I understand correctly, she would be able to use wands with any spell on the bard list.
ressurrector 12-26-05, 05:49 PM	and they're just doing this for the ability to use wands and such? taking only one level of a class for these reasons is powergaming... Assk them why their character suddenly took a level of bard (especially if they've never put any ranks into perform before) possibly tell them to just take rogue instead if they have no good reason?
Longarms 12-26-05, 06:34 PM	"and they're just doing this for the ability to use wands and such?" No.