bartering in shops [Archive] - Wizards Community

bartering in shops [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Golden Zealot
03-27-06, 12:08 PM i was wondering what do you do when your players buy from shops in cities, do you just charge them the listed market value or to what degree do your shopkeepers buy low and sell high the same item (eg. if the players sold a sword and bought it straight back, how much gold would they have lost) and how low would shopkeepers barter down to?
thanks
KJW
03-27-06, 12:40 PM When my PCs buy I tell them the PHB price adjustment, such as this town is on the frontier and has few goods so everything costs 15% more, sometimes I give discounts like in big cities that are trade hubs. I usually let my PCs sell things at 50% of value to a merchant sometimes less if the item will be difficult for the merchant to unload. Few players know how to haggle, this is growing up in a society where there is little actual haggling, so be careful, you do not want to disadvantage the PCs for the players' lack of ability. I mostly skim over these transactions as I always feel bad haggling with my players, it's not fair so I just don't do it unless we are deling with items priced over 2000gp then the gloves are off.
Lord Ian Stark
03-27-06, 01:32 PM I agree with KJW. Don't sell items for the same price it took to make it. That's ludicrous. No business can survive that to run a shop, pay taxes and need money to survive. This is why the prices are adjusted higher than what's in the book IMO.

115% to 125% of the base price is good. More or less depends on location of the shop. Depends on the item and the demand too. The +1 trident won't be worth as much as a +1 Longsword IMO as more people want a longsword then a trident. Supply & demand work in D&D just as RL.

As far as selling items, 50% of the items cost is the average. Depending on the item and haggling can get you a little more. Up to 60% of the cost IMO.

Diplomacy works well in these cituations. :)
Sereno
03-27-06, 01:41 PM I only make the players actually haggle over something that's actually important, a particular item they're trying to get that's important to the plot.

For mundane items, low-level magic (like potions and scrolls), everything's at book price and can be sold for 1/2 the market value.

Sometimes, they'll bargain for services; NPC hirelings, passage on vessels.

But, when you make the PCs haggle over every 50' of rope or non-magical weapon you're taking time away from the plot and the story and the PCs being heros (or anti-heros, if that's your thing).
Marvos
03-27-06, 02:04 PM In my game world it's assumed that there will be haggling, like in an old time market bazaar. I start items at atleast 110% of the listed cost unless there are some kind of special circumstances. If you don't haggle at all you get this expensive price and the merchant chuckles as he counts your gold. Excellent negotiation of course will make the cost quite low.
Honored_Clan
03-27-06, 02:28 PM I allow my group to sell things up to 50% of the market price. If there is a high demand for items for example certain types of weapons the city guard is low on and they happen to have a good stock from adventuring I sometimes do allow them to sell it for more than 50%

If the market has been flooded with the items I will not allow them to sell it for 50% as it goes against the principle of Supply and Demand.

When purchasing items, they can haggle all the want. I don't limit people on ability because it is more so what their characters does. So I have the characters charisma and wisdom scores play into this (which ever is higher). Depending on their scores they can barter prices better. If the character does not have good points in either these abilities they are not going to do well unless for reasons listed below.

There are also situations where shop keepers will jack up or lower the price for the PCs. Maybe they just got out of a prison and now they want to buy a longsword???...The shopkeeper knows where they came from and is uneasy about giving them one, but when the price eventually becomes right he will cave in. Or maybe they saved the shopkeepers son from a bear in the forest. They are now on the friends and family discount.

I like to make things as realistic as possible when interacting with NPCs.

Honored_Clan
wonlee76
03-27-06, 03:19 PM 50% market cost for selling items.
100% market cost for buying items.

Yeah, I know haggling could give a discount on buying or increase in selling but in all honesty, the merchant has a chance of "winning" the haggling game as well. He might be selling goods at higher then PHB list price and offering less then 50% when buying items from the group. Chances are over the length of the campaign, it all evens out. There will be times the players have to pay more for certain items or accept less then 50% for some items and there will be times when they pay less than 100% for an item or can sell an item for slightly higher then 50%. Besides, do I really want my game to be bogged down with a lot of dice rolling because the PC's are "bartering" with merchants? I personally wouldn't want to deal with it since the PCs will simply move on to the next merchant if they "failed" their bartering check until they succeed.

The only exception to this rule in my campaign are selling gems, art objects, jewelry or the like since they have an intrinsic value in them. Typically I presume PCs will keep the gems since their essentially $100 bills in D&D (presuming gold is considered a $1 dollar bill). Easy way to keep a large amount of wealth on you without being weighed down by volume (and also easier to pick pocket). So the players will get nearly 100% of the cost for such items (maybe a small lost for converting these items to gold). Also trade goods if for some reason they find trade goods (salt, flour, wheat, etc.) at the bandit camp (also close to 100% return on these items).
Millennium
03-27-06, 04:26 PM This sounds more like haggling than bartering to me.

I haven't really had to deal with this, to be honest, but maybe that's just me. For actual bartering, I'd probably do something there the person offering the item rolls his Diplomacy against the intended recipient's Appraise, with the recipient getting a -2 circumstance penalty since he doesn't have a chance to really examine the item carefully. Of course, most shopkeepers are going to have high Appraise skills, so this penalty isn't going to be much of a problem for them.

Come to think of it, this could work to some degree for haggling as well. The person who wishes to haggle rolls his Diplomacy versus the other side's Appraise; if he wins, he shifts the price in his favor by 5%. Of course, the other side can attempt to haggle back, and this can go back and forth as many times as desired, but most mercants will refuse to give more than a 15% discount.
wonlee76
03-27-06, 05:01 PM This sounds more like haggling than bartering to me.

Yeah, you're right. I'm thinking more about haggling than bartering but both are essentially the same thing. An exchange of items of value. Not much difference between trading items for items compared to trading coins/gems for items. The advantage of coins/gems is there is a set value on them while bartering just opens up the negotiation on the costs of the item that is being offered vs. the costs of the item you're trying to buy.
celtredleg
03-27-06, 06:45 PM I allow haggleing and bartering both, if the players want to play that out. If not, buy for list price, sell for half that. It just depends onn what they find fun.
syntaxerror37
03-27-06, 08:41 PM Personaly, I like to use the apraise skill in these situations. Buying starts at 100% list price, selling at 50%, bartering (exchanging goods for goods) at 60%. Trade goods, gems, etc. are good as gold and go for full value. If playeres are happy with that, that's what they get. If they want to make an apraise check to get a better deal, they can, but blowing the check gets them a worse deal. Generaly they can swing the price by an aditonal 10-20%. That can make quite a diferance when unloading magical items.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Golden Zealot 03-27-06, 12:08 PM	i was wondering what do you do when your players buy from shops in cities, do you just charge them the listed market value or to what degree do your shopkeepers buy low and sell high the same item (eg. if the players sold a sword and bought it straight back, how much gold would they have lost) and how low would shopkeepers barter down to? thanks
KJW 03-27-06, 12:40 PM	When my PCs buy I tell them the PHB price adjustment, such as this town is on the frontier and has few goods so everything costs 15% more, sometimes I give discounts like in big cities that are trade hubs. I usually let my PCs sell things at 50% of value to a merchant sometimes less if the item will be difficult for the merchant to unload. Few players know how to haggle, this is growing up in a society where there is little actual haggling, so be careful, you do not want to disadvantage the PCs for the players' lack of ability. I mostly skim over these transactions as I always feel bad haggling with my players, it's not fair so I just don't do it unless we are deling with items priced over 2000gp then the gloves are off.
Lord Ian Stark 03-27-06, 01:32 PM	I agree with KJW. Don't sell items for the same price it took to make it. That's ludicrous. No business can survive that to run a shop, pay taxes and need money to survive. This is why the prices are adjusted higher than what's in the book IMO. 115% to 125% of the base price is good. More or less depends on location of the shop. Depends on the item and the demand too. The +1 trident won't be worth as much as a +1 Longsword IMO as more people want a longsword then a trident. Supply & demand work in D&D just as RL. As far as selling items, 50% of the items cost is the average. Depending on the item and haggling can get you a little more. Up to 60% of the cost IMO. Diplomacy works well in these cituations. :)
Sereno 03-27-06, 01:41 PM	I only make the players actually haggle over something that's actually important, a particular item they're trying to get that's important to the plot. For mundane items, low-level magic (like potions and scrolls), everything's at book price and can be sold for 1/2 the market value. Sometimes, they'll bargain for services; NPC hirelings, passage on vessels. But, when you make the PCs haggle over every 50' of rope or non-magical weapon you're taking time away from the plot and the story and the PCs being heros (or anti-heros, if that's your thing).
Marvos 03-27-06, 02:04 PM	In my game world it's assumed that there will be haggling, like in an old time market bazaar. I start items at atleast 110% of the listed cost unless there are some kind of special circumstances. If you don't haggle at all you get this expensive price and the merchant chuckles as he counts your gold. Excellent negotiation of course will make the cost quite low.
Honored_Clan 03-27-06, 02:28 PM	I allow my group to sell things up to 50% of the market price. If there is a high demand for items for example certain types of weapons the city guard is low on and they happen to have a good stock from adventuring I sometimes do allow them to sell it for more than 50% If the market has been flooded with the items I will not allow them to sell it for 50% as it goes against the principle of Supply and Demand. When purchasing items, they can haggle all the want. I don't limit people on ability because it is more so what their characters does. So I have the characters charisma and wisdom scores play into this (which ever is higher). Depending on their scores they can barter prices better. If the character does not have good points in either these abilities they are not going to do well unless for reasons listed below. There are also situations where shop keepers will jack up or lower the price for the PCs. Maybe they just got out of a prison and now they want to buy a longsword???...The shopkeeper knows where they came from and is uneasy about giving them one, but when the price eventually becomes right he will cave in. Or maybe they saved the shopkeepers son from a bear in the forest. They are now on the friends and family discount. I like to make things as realistic as possible when interacting with NPCs. Honored_Clan
wonlee76 03-27-06, 03:19 PM	50% market cost for selling items. 100% market cost for buying items. Yeah, I know haggling could give a discount on buying or increase in selling but in all honesty, the merchant has a chance of "winning" the haggling game as well. He might be selling goods at higher then PHB list price and offering less then 50% when buying items from the group. Chances are over the length of the campaign, it all evens out. There will be times the players have to pay more for certain items or accept less then 50% for some items and there will be times when they pay less than 100% for an item or can sell an item for slightly higher then 50%. Besides, do I really want my game to be bogged down with a lot of dice rolling because the PC's are "bartering" with merchants? I personally wouldn't want to deal with it since the PCs will simply move on to the next merchant if they "failed" their bartering check until they succeed. The only exception to this rule in my campaign are selling gems, art objects, jewelry or the like since they have an intrinsic value in them. Typically I presume PCs will keep the gems since their essentially $100 bills in D&D (presuming gold is considered a $1 dollar bill). Easy way to keep a large amount of wealth on you without being weighed down by volume (and also easier to pick pocket). So the players will get nearly 100% of the cost for such items (maybe a small lost for converting these items to gold). Also trade goods if for some reason they find trade goods (salt, flour, wheat, etc.) at the bandit camp (also close to 100% return on these items).
Millennium 03-27-06, 04:26 PM	This sounds more like haggling than bartering to me. I haven't really had to deal with this, to be honest, but maybe that's just me. For actual bartering, I'd probably do something there the person offering the item rolls his Diplomacy against the intended recipient's Appraise, with the recipient getting a -2 circumstance penalty since he doesn't have a chance to really examine the item carefully. Of course, most shopkeepers are going to have high Appraise skills, so this penalty isn't going to be much of a problem for them. Come to think of it, this could work to some degree for haggling as well. The person who wishes to haggle rolls his Diplomacy versus the other side's Appraise; if he wins, he shifts the price in his favor by 5%. Of course, the other side can attempt to haggle back, and this can go back and forth as many times as desired, but most mercants will refuse to give more than a 15% discount.
wonlee76 03-27-06, 05:01 PM	This sounds more like haggling than bartering to me. Yeah, you're right. I'm thinking more about haggling than bartering but both are essentially the same thing. An exchange of items of value. Not much difference between trading items for items compared to trading coins/gems for items. The advantage of coins/gems is there is a set value on them while bartering just opens up the negotiation on the costs of the item that is being offered vs. the costs of the item you're trying to buy.
celtredleg 03-27-06, 06:45 PM	I allow haggleing and bartering both, if the players want to play that out. If not, buy for list price, sell for half that. It just depends onn what they find fun.
syntaxerror37 03-27-06, 08:41 PM	Personaly, I like to use the apraise skill in these situations. Buying starts at 100% list price, selling at 50%, bartering (exchanging goods for goods) at 60%. Trade goods, gems, etc. are good as gold and go for full value. If playeres are happy with that, that's what they get. If they want to make an apraise check to get a better deal, they can, but blowing the check gets them a worse deal. Generaly they can swing the price by an aditonal 10-20%. That can make quite a diferance when unloading magical items.