Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hellyion 04-22-07, 08:45 AM	Hi all, I'm a pretty experienced DM, (think Basic). but, I really wanted to run this by some other heads. (By the way, I've looked at the boards a few times, but it's the first time I've posted). Ok, I'm starting a new game which is extreme core only, (PHB, DMG), for PC creation. It's going to be a magic rare setting, but other than that, basic fuiedal type famtasy. Most lands areb human with large elven, dwarven enclaves and smaller halfling and Gnome areas. Everyone starts at 3rd level with 85 straight points to assign. I know it high, but since magic is rare we did it this way. Also, every PC has 3,700GP to buy starting gear. At the stat they can buy any magic/special items they want. So there is the background... I have a pc who is a 1/2 Orc who wrote a background that his clan of Orcs rode Wargs, (or in this case Dire Wolves). Well i shot this down because the DMG says you can't have an unusual mount that is at least -3 CR of your level. So he comes back with a elephant. Well that's way out of range yet elephnat are not unusual in some societies. His actual, response was, "Well is the elephant vendor going to ask my level"? Well I killed that as we are not in a large savannha situation, ( Mountains, heavy forest, some swamps and plains), as they simple aren't native. "Besides, when you go to your local pet store would you expect to buy elephants? I mean, I'd getting pretty upset if I went to get a kitten. Hell maybe even a snake. But, I'm pretty sure they could throw me out if I insisted on an elephant". I know it's a real world solution, but you don't go to your local horse breader in D&D and say, " Damn, that's a nice warhorse. But, I was looking for something grey. Oh, and by the way... It needs to be much larger with tusks". Now, that doesn't even get into what the hell are you going to do with it when you're not riding it. Much less feed it. So now we get to the meat of my question... he decided he's going to get a fleet of war dogs. Since they really don't exist anymore, (remember PHB, DMG only), I told him sure, you can even ntreat them as riding dogs. Yet, read handle animal very closly, which I don't think he did. So I'm curious... Granted they are "trained" how would you handle a group of "War Dogs". For simplicity let's say six of them.
daggeroflath 04-22-07, 08:52 AM	Feel better?
Hellyion 04-22-07, 08:56 AM	Sorry, So my typing skills suck. Still, I want to hear thoughts. I'm not sure how to have this email me whenever a post is made. If it's auto then no worries. But, anyone can email me at phillevans_257@yahoo anytime.
Hellyion 04-22-07, 09:00 AM	Yes I love Breyer's... You?
yellowdingo 04-22-07, 09:06 AM	Apparently you use Animal Handling...and go for a pack leader.
daggeroflath 04-22-07, 09:10 AM	Your thread title indicates that you just want to vent. Which is cool, Ted stands in the background with his thumbs up... Do you actually want feedback on the issue? Or is it seriously just some venting you want to do?
Hellyion 04-22-07, 09:12 AM	Thanks... But i think I said that... Well i guess I should have been more clear. What would you do, or how would you handle, multiple animals? I don't want to roll for every action of every animal. Now I have my ideas. But I want some overall thoughts on the whole situation.
Senevri 04-22-07, 09:14 AM	A bunch of riding dogs trained in combat? Normally. But pets... get tricky when you think of EXP. If someone buys a bunch of animals for aid, should you share XP accordingly? After all, they make the life easier for the players... Of course, if they gain no XP, at some point they're going to be obsolete, and the PC has spent money on them, and feeding them... OTOH, if the PC takes XP hit, and the animals gain (20% of the XP appropriate for their level shared equally), they may remain useful longer, and the PC may gain some sort of an attachment towards them. It also gets iffy if a breeder is willing to sell dogs to someone who comes back every week or so to "replenish" his animals.
Hellyion 04-22-07, 09:17 AM	Your thread title indicates that you just want to vent. Which is cool, Ted stands in the background with his thumbs up... Do you actually want feedback on the issue? Or is it seriously just some venting you want to do? Ah, a intelligent response... Yes I want feedback...
Hellyion 04-22-07, 09:19 AM	A bunch of riding dogs trained in combat? Normally. But pets... get tricky when you think of EXP. If someone buys a bunch of animals for aid, should you share XP accordingly? After all, they make the life easier for the players... Of course, if they gain no XP, at some point they're going to be obsolete, and the PC has spent money on them, and feeding them... OTOH, if the PC takes XP hit, and the animals gain (20% of the XP appropriate for their level shared equally), they may remain useful longer, and the PC may gain some sort of an attachment towards them. It also gets iffy if a breeder is willing to sell dogs to someone who comes back every week or so to "replenish" his animals. I think you missed the point. I could care less about XP. Dogs are maxed out in any case.
Hellyion 04-22-07, 09:32 AM	I think you missed the point. I could care less about XP. Dogs are maxed out in any case. Just read through your post again and it makes good points. Especially, one point. Where does it say that they get 20% of your XP? That would kill the idea. Anyone familiar with supermunchkin?
Hellyion 04-22-07, 09:52 AM	Hi all, I've been pretty non-chalant, but I want to know... How would you handle multiple animals, in relation to animal handling, in a combat situation. Obviously I could roll for each but that would be too detrimental to the game. And, a single roll for all would cause me another round of discussions which I mentioned above. Thanks, Phill
Roxlimn 04-22-07, 10:00 AM	Avoid the situation and just give the guy his Warg.
Stormbrand 04-22-07, 10:06 AM	His clan can ride Dire Wolves, simply tell him he needs to earn the priviledge in game (prove himself worthy, be accepted by the wolf).
Nephlite 04-22-07, 10:13 AM	A bunch of riding dogs trained in combat? Normally. But pets... get tricky when you think of EXP. If someone buys a bunch of animals for aid, should you share XP accordingly? After all, they make the life easier for the players... Of course, if they gain no XP, at some point they're going to be obsolete, and the PC has spent money on them, and feeding them... OTOH, if the PC takes XP hit, and the animals gain (20% of the XP appropriate for their level shared equally), they may remain useful longer, and the PC may gain some sort of an attachment towards them. It also gets iffy if a breeder is willing to sell dogs to someone who comes back every week or so to "replenish" his animals. Animals don't get Exp: yes, they become obsolete: except they are still yo8r friends. The 1/2 Orc can also take the Besastmaster Prc to improve his pets.
Psychoticpsymon 04-22-07, 10:29 AM	Ah, a intelligent response... Yes I want feedback... Ooh! The quickest way to kill interest in a thread is to insult all the community members at once!
Cartigan 04-22-07, 10:52 AM	Avoid the situation and just give the guy his Warg. Seriously. The whole thing could have been avoided if he had just given the guy a bloody Warg.
noctivagus 04-22-07, 11:10 AM	One possibility he would start out with a young pet (effectively, just a lower CR wolf) that would age, increase in CR, as the game progressed until his character was high enough level that a dire wolf would make an appropriate mount; the idea being that, perhaps, he trains it from it's youth to instill loyalty in it... something like that.
Lana "Silvertongue" 04-22-07, 11:11 AM	Woah, a pack.... Hm. yes while it might have been easier to be a DRUID and do what he wants, I too would never have given him a Warg. I prolly would have pointed him to the Druid class, then stepped outside of my "Distinctly Core" world and realize that its not conducive to do straight core in a low magic campaign. Two negitives (distinctly core and low magic) are prolly what is making this guy very agressive on the pet front simply due to survival. May want to see how the pack operates in game... because if hes the only one to survive a dungeon... you may need to reasses your demands.
Fend 04-22-07, 11:11 AM	Your player is a moron. If he wants a pack of dogs he should go ranger or Druid. Better yet. Druid. because it can summon dogs spontaniously. Tell him - if he wants dogs you cant do anything about - summon a whole bunch of them with repeated summon spells. Tell him to go down a path of Summoner druid. Otherwise tell him he's just going to bone up your campaign if he makes a shameless grab for minions and attention so early in... jesus.
Otto the Bugbear 04-22-07, 11:28 AM	Everyone starts at 3rd level I have a pc who is a 1/2 Orc who wrote a background that his clan of Orcs rode Wargs, (or in this case Dire Wolves). Warhorse, Heavy Large animal HD 4d8+12 (30 hit points) Speed 50 AC: +1 dex, -1 size, +4 natural 2 Hooves +6 melee (1d6+4) and bite +1 melee (1d4+2) low light vision, scent S: 18, D: 13, C: 17, I: 2, W: 13, C: 6 Endurance, Run Worg <-- note the 'o' instead of the 'a' Medium Magical Beast HD: 4d10+8 (30 hp) Speed 50 AC: +2 dex, +2 natural Bite +7 melee (1d6+4) darkvision 60, LLV, scent S: 17, D: 15, C: 15, I: 6, W: 14, C: 10 Alertness, Track Aside from the fact that orcs cannot use worgs as mounts (note the size), what seems to be the problem letting him have a worg? I'd be more fearful of that damn horse at level 3! Though I guess if you found some monster named "warg" and aren't referring to the core "worg", this is a moot point.
Tiberia 04-22-07, 11:30 AM	Cry Havoc and let loose the Dogs of War! Trained war dogs are perfectly reasonable. People train dogs to hunt animals, dogs which hunt sentients are meaner and cost more and maybe wear bits of armour (think horse barding) plus the classical spiked collar. Crossbreed the strength of a Rottweiler with the temper of a Pekingese. You can always say the best war-dog breeder is over the hills and far away. Or you can say that there is a war on and the Army has "volunteered" all the local war-dogs. I guess a war dog to be as strong as a wild boar, use those stats and multiply the price by a large number to expess the cost of training. Or use the training price for the skill Train Animal. Maybe true, maybe urban myth?? World War 2, Uncle Joe had the brilliant idea. The armour on a tank is strong on the sides and top, but weak underneath. Put the dog's food under the tanks, dogs get used to going under tanks. Battle, strap mines to the dogs and send them at the Nazi tanks. Dogs look at Nazi tanks and don't know what they are. Dogs look at Soviet tanks and think "Food!!" BOOMSKI!
CipherTheory 04-22-07, 11:47 AM	There really isn't a rule (that I've read) for dealing with animals in groups. My suggestion would be to treat them as having a pack mentality. The character makes a single handle animal check against the group as a whole to get them to do what he wants them to do. For balance reasons, you might want to make this check slightly harder than the average HA check due to the number of animals. Say, +1 on any given DC per animal. Other than that, have the animals act as one group if at all possible. If the character singles out one to have specailly trained, allow it; but have it remain destinct from the group. Otherwise, the character will issue commands to the grorup as a whole. "Attack" means the pack runs forward an starts gnawing on enemies legs. "Stay" means they all sit still. Again, if the character holds one or more animals back from attacking, or manually pulls them forward when the rest of the group are ordered to sit, temporarily detach them from the main group and have them follow commands individually until reunited with the whole. Finally, if you're going to run a low-magic campaign you should expect that your player's are going to try to use whatever means they can think of to gain power. When you can get magical whatever there's no need to pull this sort of stuff; but in absense of that characters will try to get their hands on elephants, groups of dogs, or pull degenerate things with bags of flour. This is the hallmark of ingeneuity in a player. Be thankfull your players care enough about your game to bother to think of these things.
Hellyion 04-22-07, 12:30 PM	OK, I appreciate all the responses and I'm sorry If I alienated anyone. Here's what it boils down to... Obviously he can buy as many dogs as he has money for. Now considering they are all trained, (and I use this across the board at this point). To do anything it's a Handle Animal 10. Now is there anything that says how many you can use HA on at a time? So many Hit Dice, Charisma Bonus, etc??? I'm temped to say it's Charisma based. What do you think? Obviously, there is some leeway here.... Say you come upon a party of bandits and you have 6 dogs. Well as soon as you see them you could release them and say attack. Well they are trained to do that so DC 10, Then you, and/our party get into melee with them. Well the dogs will keep attacking what you pointed at 1st unless you change the command. So after the 1st command can you control them individually, and if so how many? If you fail, (+2 DC for each wound), should it be up to the DM as to what they do? Do they run away, become enraged and attack whatever is closest. And how much does the DC increase for each animal, if any?
CaptKillern 04-22-07, 12:51 PM	Seriously. The whole thing could have been avoided if he had just given the guy a bloody Warg. Yeah, and if he wants to start at 8th level, and everyone else is 3rd... avoid the problem let him do it... He wants a +5 brilliant energy weapon ?, give it to him why cause any problems? Oh wait low magic setting? He wants a portable shoulder cannon...why cause a scene let him have it... Seriously though, if the player is causing problems and wont conform to your ruling as a DM, get rid of him. The point of a game is for everyone to have fun, not just the power crazed!
Charlym_Zuardan 04-22-07, 01:40 PM	I feel bad for this player, he went to the trouble of writing up a backstory and everything for his character concept just to be shot down. This could have provided some interesting plot hooks for the game which could have been a lot of fun for the player. For instance travelling into the deepest forests of whereverland to find and capture a worg pup could have been an adventure all itself. From there the player would have to train the pup over a period of time. As DM you could easily adjust the stats and even size of the creature, perhaps its a rare and special breed only found in a certain area and thats why this orc clan is the only ones who ride them. once the player gains a few levels his puppy might be well enough trained to start helping him attack or do certain tasks, and as he goes up in levels he can train it to follow more complex commands and eventually to be ridden into battle. this would be a fairly easy idea to implement into any game, in my opinion. You should have just allowed it from the start and been happy that your player is getting into his character. Yeah, and if he wants to start at 8th level, and everyone else is 3rd... avoid the problem let him do it... He wants a +5 brilliant energy weapon ?, give it to him why cause any problems? Oh wait low magic setting? He wants a portable shoulder cannon...why cause a scene let him have it... Seriously though, if the player is causing problems and wont conform to your ruling as a DM, get rid of him. The point of a game is for everyone to have fun, not just the power crazed! while i can see where you are coming from here, writing up a backstory and asking for a slightly unusual mount (its just a bigger meaner riding dog really, right?) is not quite the same as wanting weapons that wouldnt possibly be available or asking to start 5 levels higher than the rest of the party. like you say, the point is to have fun, and if putting in an extra 10-20 minutes to stat out a suitable riding worg or to work it into the story is what it takes to make the players have more fun, thats not too much to ask of the DM. just my :twocents:
Kuronue 04-22-07, 03:33 PM	The problem being the worg can fight, and if the worg is able to kick everything's butts on it's own because it's better than the low-level PCs, it's not very fun for anyone else, is it?
Ceirnian 04-22-07, 03:55 PM	The problem being the worg can fight, and if the worg is able to kick everything's butts on it's own because it's better than the low-level PCs, it's not very fun for anyone else, is it? Take a look at a Heavy War Horse. That thing will more than likely destroy a worg... yet it's perfectly legal to buy one. With handle animal and a set of full horse plate(barding) it becomes beastly. What's your point?
Charlym_Zuardan 04-22-07, 04:41 PM	also, its not that hard to re-stat something if you want to tone it down to be more in line with the PC's power level, it would only take a little bit of extra time on the DM's part, which was the point i was trying to make.
CaptKillern 04-22-07, 05:06 PM	Take a look at a Heavy War Horse. That thing will more than likely destroy a worg... yet it's perfectly legal to buy one. With handle animal and a set of full horse plate(barding) it becomes beastly. What's your point? Your right, but you generally dont think of horses trained as attack horses. Or guard horses. I have never been to a farm with a beware of killer horse sign. I guess the player could make a case that the Horse is more powerful than a worg. I like backstories, and having alot of detail and history is great, but slapping a paragraph together to justify starting with an animal companion more powerful than a druid's of the same level (the dire wolf and war elephant metioned) just seems like trying to get an advantage on the other players.
Escef 04-22-07, 05:39 PM	Your right, but you generally dont think of horses trained as attack horses. Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot are you talking about? During the Middle/Dark Ages (and into the Renaissance) a horse was a bloody tank. A large, powerful animal that just plowed through opposing infantry as if they were barely even there. A horse can easily rear and pound the crap out of you with its front hooves, and its mule-kick would as likely as not kill you. These are animals that have been bred and trained for war for centuries in the real world. They were used as recently as WWII (ok, so the Polish cavalry wasn't a good match for German tanks, that's not the point). Even during the American Civil War these things were feared in close quarters by infantry (usually took a few bullets to stop them, though they crumpled under artillary fire as easily as anything else). Yes, in modern times horses are bred for racing and show, and trained to be at least a little docile for ease in handling. In a more brutal world, they are bred for size for the purposes of labor and war.
CaptKillern 04-22-07, 06:17 PM	Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot are you talking about? During the Middle/Dark Ages (and into the Renaissance) a horse was a bloody tank. A large, powerful animal that just plowed through opposing infantry as if they were barely even there. A horse can easily rear and pound the crap out of you with its front hooves, and its mule-kick would as likely as not kill you. These are animals that have been bred and trained for war for centuries in the real world. They were used as recently as WWII (ok, so the Polish cavalry wasn't a good match for German tanks, that's not the point). Even during the American Civil War these things were feared in close quarters by infantry (usually took a few bullets to stop them, though they crumpled under artillary fire as easily as anything else). Yes, in modern times horses are bred for racing and show, and trained to be at least a little docile for ease in handling. In a more brutal world, they are bred for size for the purposes of labor and war. ... yes a horse was trained for combat as a mount... they did not put armor on them and release them on their own to attack enemy sodiers... or did they? I could just see it. The battle is about to begin, the Warlord ushers the cry that the beast handlers have been eaiting for... "release the Horses of war!" The handlers, who could barely hold the horses in their charge at bay due to the blood thirsty and savage nature inherant in the half mad war beast known as the horse, let go of the leashes that held them. Cries from the enemy can be heard as they realize that the viscious, unstoppable killing machines will soon be apon them. As the battle horses reach the enemy line, the bggest of the horses severs the head of a knight with one powerful chomp of its vice like jaw... in the same movement it executes a perfect reverse spinning kick that the monk Gunther taught it, severing the head of yet another poor soul who got in it's way. With the blood lust coming over it, it cant stop its bestial instincts, consumed with rage it begins to feed on the corpses of the fallen... In the reces of its equine brain a small cry says "but I'm an herbivore!" "but herbivore be damned" it whinnies as it continues its dark feast... Across the field, the enemy commander smiles... too bad the fools had not realized the barely controllabel fury that is the horse... Ok, that was uncalled for, and I am sorry. But I think you understood what I meant by combat or gurad trained horses in my first post.
Escef 04-22-07, 06:25 PM	... yes a horse was trained for combat as a mount... they did not put armor on them and release them on their own to attack enemy sodiers... or did they? <snip> Ok, that was uncalled for, and I am sorry. But I think you understood what I meant by combat or gurad trained horses in my first post. While I can think of no instance where horses were let loose riderless to attack in battle (or as guard animals), it does not seem implaussable. War horses have been known to defend their felled riders, it isn't much of a stretch to see them as trained guard animals. Dogs are good for such purposes because they are reasonably intelligent (for animals), have a pack mentality, and are territorial. I do not recall hearing of horses being territorial, but they are around as smart as a dog and are herd animals. Definately no stretch of the imagination, and perfectly fine for D&D.
Shatteredtower 04-22-07, 06:51 PM	Uncalled for or not, it was pretty funny. "But I'm an herbivore!" Handle Animal... I was going to say it was good for only one animal at a team, but then I considered beasts of burden hauling in teams. Does a six-horse carriage require the service of several drivers? One would hope not, but the RAW suggest that you can handle no more than two animals per round, and only one per round can be pushed. This works fine for two horse wagons. If you put more into the harness, you might rule that only one or two lead animals need to be directed and the rest will follow, but this isn't as straightforward for attack animals. If you want dogs that can travel safely with your companions (or anything you encounter), you're going to need to make sure they won't just attack on sight. That means they only attack when directed, which means that a party member can't direct more than two into combat per round (three, if one is the PC's animal companion), and only by giving up the option to do anything else but make a 5 ft step. Once a dog is ordered to attack, it will likely keep attacking that particular opponent. This might lead to a lot of rolling on your part eventually, assuming an opponent continues to stand after half a dozen dogs and the party engage it, but it's rare that it will come to that. If the opponent falls quickly, the PC is likely back to directing dogs toward a new opponent. If the enemy does not fall, there's a good chance that you're now dealing with a few less dogs -- or one less animal handler. The one time it can be a real hassle for you is when the dogs are set on guard duty, since the handler has time to set them all up, and the pack may very well attack as one. If this strikes you as a lot of dice rolling on your part, there's a very simple solution: let the player roll the dice. Have him roll several d20 at once. If you've got d6 that can match each d20, roll the damage for each at the same time, omitting any damage for a d20 that doesn't hit. Otherwise, just have the player roll the right number of dice for appropriate damage afterward. This can be handled nearly as quickly as the attacks for a single dog, and sometimes more quickly than multiple attacks for a single PC.
Shatteredtower 04-22-07, 06:54 PM	While I can think of no instance where horses were let loose riderless to attack in battle (or as guard animals), it does not seem implaussable. War horses have been known to defend their felled riders, it isn't much of a stretch to see them as trained guard animals.By the rules, this is permissible. Hey, by the rules, you could even train guard toads, even though they have no meaningful means of attacking. Wonderful. Now you've got me thinking of suicide frogs. (Sorry about the double post. This computer won't let me edit.)
Morits 04-22-07, 07:19 PM	Handle Animal gives extra pluses. for obedience But a trained war-dog ought to do what it says on the tin attack, retreat, stand guard etc. Does the PC want to buy war-dogs from an "honest merchant" or train his own pack in back-story?
WolfHati 04-22-07, 09:06 PM	I think by warg Hellyion means dire wolf - they were essentially the same monster in previous editions, even I had to look it up to realize that there was a separate entry for worgs now. At any rate, a dire wolf mount isn't too out of the question, like someone said, start it out as a pup or something, maybe with medium size and the combat stats of a worg, and then let it grow to full strength when he gains a level or two. At the very least charge him the 400 gp for the heavy warhorse, though for a dire wolf, something more on the order of 900 gp might be justified. And just out of curiosity where does it say that a purchased mount should have a CR of no more than character level -3? If someone has the means to get a really cool mount, let them. It's going to come at the expense of better equipment and can die more easily than equipment gets lost.
Mock26 04-22-07, 10:44 PM	I'd rule that there were several options available to the character controlling the dog. First, in a dungeon setting I'd require a lot of DC rolls for the character to control the dogs, assuming that they are not on leashes. Even a highly trained dog is still going to have a lot of animal instincts, and if they aren't on leashes there will be times when they'd be tempted to charge off and attack. Since they are trained, the rolls shouldn't be too difficult, but eventually the player will roll a failure. And, this is just to keep the dogs nearby. Dogs are also prone to barking, and those would require more DC rolls to control the dogs. Now, going into combat, if the dogs aren't leashed, there will probably be a good chance that they will just charge at any threatening creatures. If they are on leashes then they will have to be released. Just dropping the leashes is a quick solution, but a war dog in combat would have a serious liability if his leash was still attached. So, if the character wants to unhook the leashes, that will take time. And, if the character wants to control the dogs, he'll have to refrain from combat to control the dogs. If he is fighting someone he'll be too preoccuppied to be paying close attention to his dogs. I would also rule that if the character designates targets that if the dogs kill that target that they will take a round or two to make sure that the creature is indeed dead. In real life dog attacks dogs have been known to keep attacking unconscious victims. If the character directs the dogs to attack another target I'd rule that this would involve a DC roll to override the dogs natural instincts. Basically, controlling dogs in a combat situation, even highly trained war dogs, won't necessarily be an esy task. From personal experience I've gone hunting with some highly trained, championship quality, field dogs. And, sometimes instinct still takes over. While it doesn't happen that often it does happen from time to time. So, I'd make the DC rolls to be anywhere from between 10 and 20, depending on the circumstances. And, remember that there are going to be situations where having a pack of dogs will be a huge burden, such as trying to cross a rope bridge, or climbing a rope, or swimming underwater. And, let's not forget all the dog food he'll have to carry around!
Mock26 04-22-07, 11:06 PM	Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot are you talking about? During the Middle/Dark Ages (and into the Renaissance) a horse was a bloody tank. A large, powerful animal that just plowed through opposing infantry as if they were barely even there. A horse can easily rear and pound the crap out of you with its front hooves, and its mule-kick would as likely as not kill you. These are animals that have been bred and trained for war for centuries in the real world. They were used as recently as WWII (ok, so the Polish cavalry wasn't a good match for German tanks, that's not the point). Even during the American Civil War these things were feared in close quarters by infantry (usually took a few bullets to stop them, though they crumpled under artillary fire as easily as anything else). Yes, in modern times horses are bred for racing and show, and trained to be at least a little docile for ease in handling. In a more brutal world, they are bred for size for the purposes of labor and war. OK, just need to clarify something here. Polish cavalry NEVER charged German tanks during WWII. That is a myth that has been floating around for decades. The actual truth is that the Polish cavalry, as were the US cavalry units serving in the Pacific theater, was mounted infantry who actually carried maching guns with them. They rode to a location, dismounted, and then would fight. Some of these dismounted units faced off against German armored units, but they never charged them with sabres or lances. There were some charges of cavalry against infantry units, but done against armored units. All that stock footage that you see of cavalry charging tanks is a lie. I don't know who created it, but they took two (or more) films and edited it. If you have ever seen the footage you will note that it never shows the cavlary and the tanks in the same scene. There was an article in Military History Magazine several years ago, and an article by Mark Lardas in a recent issue of Strategy and Tactics. Additionally, I'd like to point out that very few horses were rarely actually trained to attack with their hooves while rearing up or to mule kick. That is another common myth that has arisen over the years because of the Lippizanner Stallions, which were trained as show horses to put on a martial act. The mounted knight had enough to worry about with people around him trying to knock him off his horse and such. Mounted units are also most effective while moving. They're an easy enough target as it is (horses make very big targets, and in the real world a single arrow could take out a horse, as could a spear or sword thrust, and a common tactic against armored units was to kill the mount), and if you stop to fight you can get into some serious trouble. When knights (or other melee armed mounted units) charge, the idea is to charge through the ranks and attack as you ride by. Lances were also meant to be left impaled in your target. Once you ride past, you turn around and repeat the process. This mobility is where horses become tanks, because that is when they will trample someone. If the mounted kight stops amongst enemy ranks, he will be trying to defend himself against attacks from mulitple directions, and trying to kill those people. If his horse rears up or mule kicks that could be very disruptive and might actually throw him from his horse. Don't get me wrong, a mounted soldier still has a distinct advantage against someone on the ground, but seldom would a single mounted knight face a single soldier on foot. Foot units were trained to swarm knights and knock them off their horse or to kill the horse and get the knight on the ground, preferably off his feet where he would be at a hug disadvantage. Additionally, an armored horse rearing with an armored knight on it wouldn't rear all that high. And not all horses were big, huge, hulking brutes. Only those used by knights were. A typical horse used to plow a field (which really didn't exist in the Middle Ages but does in the D&D world) or a horse used to pull a wagon would make a poor mount for a heavily armored knight.
pmurray@bigpond.com 04-23-07, 01:59 AM	Oh yeah, and my character background is "spoilt rich kid", so I start with a million GP. Sure.
Manic Man 04-23-07, 02:06 AM	There's a mob template, though that requires more than a few dogs. I would encourage him to purchase hundreds even thousands of dogs. Then refer to the Knights of the Dinner Table strip where the dogs decided to go do their own stuff, destroying towns and cities and their owners getting fingered as those responsible. Fun :D
WolfHati 04-23-07, 02:32 AM	And not all horses were big, huge, hulking brutes. Only those used by knights were. A typical horse used to plow a field (which really didn't exist in the Middle Ages but does in the D&D world) or a horse used to pull a wagon would make a poor mount for a heavily armored knight. But a heavy warhorse is one of those big hulking brutes no? Oh yeah, and my character background is "spoilt rich kid", so I start with a million GP. If you can figure out how to turn 3700 gp starting wealth into 1 million gp, then go ahead. And if your history involves iron pots you will be beaten.
Xykon 04-23-07, 03:38 AM	There's a mob template, though that requires more than a few dogs. I would encourage him to purchase hundreds even thousands of dogs. Then refer to the Knights of the Dinner Table strip where the dogs decided to go do their own stuff, destroying towns and cities and their owners getting fingered as those responsible. Fun :DYeah, and each dog will need 3s equivalent of food each day, that ought to be discouraging enough... and on a long enough trip, i.e. 6 day trip, he'll have to find a way to haul all those dog foods or some will starve to death. If he cooks the dead dog, then the remaining dogs leaves whenever possible. Don't forget the animal's upkeep. Sure, he can keep up with the food, but how about sleeping? He sure can't put his dozens of dogs into the inn...
Etarnon 04-23-07, 09:51 AM	What would I do? Tell the player I'm not the right DM for him. If he wants a single war dog, fine. If we are playing Birthright, and he's a regent of a land, and wants a "Fleet of war dogs" fine. But I wouldn't mix the cases.
Escef 04-23-07, 10:42 AM	OK, just need to clarify something here. Polish cavalry NEVER charged German tanks during WWII. That is a myth that has been floating around for decades. The actual truth is that the Polish cavalry, as were the US cavalry units serving in the Pacific theater, was mounted infantry who actually carried maching guns with them. They rode to a location, dismounted, and then would fight. Some of these dismounted units faced off against German armored units, but they never charged them with sabres or lances. There were some charges of cavalry against infantry units, but done against armored units. All that stock footage that you see of cavalry charging tanks is a lie. I don't know who created it, but they took two (or more) films and edited it. If you have ever seen the footage you will note that it never shows the cavlary and the tanks in the same scene. There was an article in Military History Magazine several years ago, and an article by Mark Lardas in a recent issue of Strategy and Tactics. I never thought they charged the tanks. Despite all the stupid Polock jokes out there, any idiot knows charging a tank while on a flesh and blood beast is suicide. Additionally, I'd like to point out that very few horses were rarely actually trained to attack with their hooves while rearing up or to mule kick. Trained to or no, I'm wagering a horse that panics is going to try. (Granted, if it panics it means that either the rider or the trainer has failed somehow.) ...in the real world a single arrow could take out a horse, as could a spear or sword thrust... Aye, but with an animal the size of a horse you're far more likely to not penetrate far enough to deal a leathal injury than against a comparably armored man. Appreciate the historical info and perspective, though.
Ace_of_time 04-23-07, 11:06 PM	Just follow the rules on animals. If they are trained for battle that doesn't mean they are Six more PC's for him. You control them. And you should lower XPs for encounters in which they make those encounters easier. most attack animals have to make a will save after so much damage. ( I think It's 1/2 but I'm not sure) If they fail they run.