Battle Jump [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Jump [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Szat
04-14-05, 02:22 AM Ok here's the problem. A PC of mine want's to play a Dragoon style character, similar to those found in Final Fantasy. Essentially he wants to jump up in the air and fall down on his opponents.

He believes this is possible by adding huge modifiers to his jump and using the "Battle Jump" feat from the Unapproachable East. We play in Forgotten Realms.

Here's the feat.

Battle Jump

You know how to launch a devastating attack from above by dropping onto your opponent.
Region: Taer
Benefit: You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent. For example, a ledge 10 feet above the floor of a cavern would suffice for jumping on a medium-sized creature, while a ledge 15 feet high is required for jumping on a Large creature. You can't jump from more than 30 feet above your opponent, nor can you effectively battle jump while under the influence of a fly or levitate spell or effect, as you have to hurl yourself down on your foe. If you hit, you can choose either to deal double damage with a melee weapon or natural attack or to attempt a trip attack. You are treated as one size category larger than normal if you try to trip your opponent with the battle jump. After you attack, you take falling damage as normal for the distance you jumped. You are entitled to a Jump check (DC15) to take less damage, as if you had fallen 10 feet less than you actually did. If you fail this Jump check, you fall prone 5 feet from your opponent. You can also use Battle Jump to begin a grapple attempt intead of making a normal attack. If you do, you are treated as one size category larger than normal for the first grapple check following the battle jump.

I hope this doesn't infringe on copyrights. WizO's if it does I'll remove the thread and sorry.

Now how would you rule this? Think first then I'll give you how I interpreted it.

It seems to be that you have to "hurl" yourself down upon a foe. I don't see how this can be done from a standing jump in combat. What do you think?
Kaligrad
04-14-05, 02:32 AM Benefit: You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent.
That seems simple enough. The ledges described were merely examples. Keep in mind, though, that jumping up right next to the person in question is quite likely to draw attacks of opportunity.
Colmarr
04-14-05, 03:16 AM The mechanics of this sort of attack are almost impossible to work out in general combat. The following discussion uses a 5ft tall target. The DCs increase for every foot taller the target is.

A vertical leap is straight up and down. The character doesn't change squares, so it's no use in combat unless the character can get in the opponent's square in the first place (such as if the PC is tiny or the opponent is three sizes larger than the character). Even if they can get in the square, the required jump check is almost always going to be at least 40 or more (5ft up x 4, double for no run-up). For the specific feat you mentioned, the PC needs to fall from 5ft above the enemy, giving a needed height of 10ft. DC 80.

If the player is trying a horizontal jump, the greatest height they reach is halfway through the jump and is one quarter of the total jump length. In order for the PC to come down on an opponent from above, their maximum height would need to be at least 10 feet (so that's they're 5ft off the ground when they reach the opponent's square). To reach that height, the jump needs to be at least 40ft long (length = 4 x maximum height reached), which is DC 40. Without a run-up, the DC is 80. For the specific feat you mentioned, it's difficult to see how it is possible to make a long jumping attack at all. I can't see how the PC can fall onto the opponent from at least 5 feet above him if the PC if moving in a parabola at the time.

When you look at the mechanics of it, it is virtually impossible for anything without (a) a very high speed, (b) massive strength, and/or (c) magical assistance to pull these sorts of attacks off. Even if they can mechanically do it, it's cumbersome.

In the long jumping scenario, a PC with move 30 would need to be exactly 60ft away from their opponent (more and they can't attack, less and they can't get the 20 foot run-up), and they'd get one attack. Then they'd have to withdraw back to their starting position for another go. Having seen what happened last time, the monster would of course... 5ft step.

PC's with higher speeds are slightly more flexible but it's still just too much work. Tell your player to forget it. It's not worth the effort.
High Octane
04-14-05, 03:51 AM Well since this requires you to be on a higher ledge anyway, I see no harm in it. It would make sense for there to be people who specialize in ambush scenarios by leaping on top of people from above. Especially larger creatures (What better way to attack the huge dragon than with a rain of spearman screaming "DEATH FROM ABOVE!" diveboming from the sides of the cliff you lure him into)
Szat
04-14-05, 04:21 AM This is the thing. I read it as the person has to drop down from a ledge or something similar. In other words you need to have hurled yourself down from a ledge.

Also, for reference, he's making a Fighter/Psionic Warrior. So a high speed, massive strength and magical assistance will all be in play.
MortalPlague
04-14-05, 04:35 AM As a DM, stacked jump checks bother me- it's one of my pet peeves. It's not that I mind players jumping, I just don't like characters who use jumping as a form of transportation because their characters can jump a mile high. :rolleyes:

So to me, I'd read that feat as requiring a drop rather than a jump. You can't really 'hurl' yourself down while jumping, can you?
Szat
04-14-05, 04:55 AM Which is where we get into how is "hurling" yourself down different from jumping with a DC 88 5 feet above your foe then dropping down on him with a lance.

My major issue is that the player is question will then use Psionic Lion's Charge, giving him a full attack at the end of a charge. Unless I find something that argues against it RAW the character'll get 3 attacks at DOUBLE damage.
Szat
04-14-05, 04:59 AM This attack will do 200+ damage in a single round. For 3 measly Power Points.
dantedarkstar
04-14-05, 07:29 AM As far as I know, Battle Jump was changed somewhere during transition to 3.5 (Complete Warrior I think) to give +1d12 damage (or something like that), instead of doubling. Probably to avoid such overkills.

Edit: If it was in UE, the change could be in PGtF
deduke
04-14-05, 08:11 AM For the character idea and for better ruling let the player take a look at leap attack from complete warrior. You need to make a jump attack as well during a charge, if you beat a certain dc you can get extra dmg from power attack.
2:1 with a 1 handed weapon or 3:1 with a 2-handed weapon.

For a good idea on what the player is going to do take a look at the fleshraker from MM3, it has a leaping pounce ability almost equal to the battle jump feat but just slightly better :)

I think i would let the player use the jump skill to come from above he just has to get this high (at least 5ft above the floor) decide on a reasonable jump check before hand. And remmeber if this is the only trick the character can perform its not all that great just adjust the monsters you pick a bit (large creatures can be good because he needs to get above those as well increasing the dc by a lot).

regards deDuke
Zym
04-14-05, 02:57 PM Check this thread for some additional input:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=373149

Also there is a few Jump/Tumble treads if you care to search them out using the google wotc bbs only option.

With the FAQ info on Jumping and Tumbling and Charges most of this is quite doable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Szat 04-14-05, 02:22 AM	Ok here's the problem. A PC of mine want's to play a Dragoon style character, similar to those found in Final Fantasy. Essentially he wants to jump up in the air and fall down on his opponents. He believes this is possible by adding huge modifiers to his jump and using the "Battle Jump" feat from the Unapproachable East. We play in Forgotten Realms. Here's the feat. Battle Jump You know how to launch a devastating attack from above by dropping onto your opponent. Region: Taer Benefit: You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent. For example, a ledge 10 feet above the floor of a cavern would suffice for jumping on a medium-sized creature, while a ledge 15 feet high is required for jumping on a Large creature. You can't jump from more than 30 feet above your opponent, nor can you effectively battle jump while under the influence of a fly or levitate spell or effect, as you have to hurl yourself down on your foe. If you hit, you can choose either to deal double damage with a melee weapon or natural attack or to attempt a trip attack. You are treated as one size category larger than normal if you try to trip your opponent with the battle jump. After you attack, you take falling damage as normal for the distance you jumped. You are entitled to a Jump check (DC15) to take less damage, as if you had fallen 10 feet less than you actually did. If you fail this Jump check, you fall prone 5 feet from your opponent. You can also use Battle Jump to begin a grapple attempt intead of making a normal attack. If you do, you are treated as one size category larger than normal for the first grapple check following the battle jump. I hope this doesn't infringe on copyrights. WizO's if it does I'll remove the thread and sorry. Now how would you rule this? Think first then I'll give you how I interpreted it. It seems to be that you have to "hurl" yourself down upon a foe. I don't see how this can be done from a standing jump in combat. What do you think?
Kaligrad 04-14-05, 02:32 AM	Benefit: You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent. That seems simple enough. The ledges described were merely examples. Keep in mind, though, that jumping up right next to the person in question is quite likely to draw attacks of opportunity.
Colmarr 04-14-05, 03:16 AM	The mechanics of this sort of attack are almost impossible to work out in general combat. The following discussion uses a 5ft tall target. The DCs increase for every foot taller the target is. A vertical leap is straight up and down. The character doesn't change squares, so it's no use in combat unless the character can get in the opponent's square in the first place (such as if the PC is tiny or the opponent is three sizes larger than the character). Even if they can get in the square, the required jump check is almost always going to be at least 40 or more (5ft up x 4, double for no run-up). For the specific feat you mentioned, the PC needs to fall from 5ft above the enemy, giving a needed height of 10ft. DC 80. If the player is trying a horizontal jump, the greatest height they reach is halfway through the jump and is one quarter of the total jump length. In order for the PC to come down on an opponent from above, their maximum height would need to be at least 10 feet (so that's they're 5ft off the ground when they reach the opponent's square). To reach that height, the jump needs to be at least 40ft long (length = 4 x maximum height reached), which is DC 40. Without a run-up, the DC is 80. For the specific feat you mentioned, it's difficult to see how it is possible to make a long jumping attack at all. I can't see how the PC can fall onto the opponent from at least 5 feet above him if the PC if moving in a parabola at the time. When you look at the mechanics of it, it is virtually impossible for anything without (a) a very high speed, (b) massive strength, and/or (c) magical assistance to pull these sorts of attacks off. Even if they can mechanically do it, it's cumbersome. In the long jumping scenario, a PC with move 30 would need to be exactly 60ft away from their opponent (more and they can't attack, less and they can't get the 20 foot run-up), and they'd get one attack. Then they'd have to withdraw back to their starting position for another go. Having seen what happened last time, the monster would of course... 5ft step. PC's with higher speeds are slightly more flexible but it's still just too much work. Tell your player to forget it. It's not worth the effort.
High Octane 04-14-05, 03:51 AM	Well since this requires you to be on a higher ledge anyway, I see no harm in it. It would make sense for there to be people who specialize in ambush scenarios by leaping on top of people from above. Especially larger creatures (What better way to attack the huge dragon than with a rain of spearman screaming "DEATH FROM ABOVE!" diveboming from the sides of the cliff you lure him into)
Szat 04-14-05, 04:21 AM	This is the thing. I read it as the person has to drop down from a ledge or something similar. In other words you need to have hurled yourself down from a ledge. Also, for reference, he's making a Fighter/Psionic Warrior. So a high speed, massive strength and magical assistance will all be in play.
MortalPlague 04-14-05, 04:35 AM	As a DM, stacked jump checks bother me- it's one of my pet peeves. It's not that I mind players jumping, I just don't like characters who use jumping as a form of transportation because their characters can jump a mile high. :rolleyes: So to me, I'd read that feat as requiring a drop rather than a jump. You can't really 'hurl' yourself down while jumping, can you?
Szat 04-14-05, 04:55 AM	Which is where we get into how is "hurling" yourself down different from jumping with a DC 88 5 feet above your foe then dropping down on him with a lance. My major issue is that the player is question will then use Psionic Lion's Charge, giving him a full attack at the end of a charge. Unless I find something that argues against it RAW the character'll get 3 attacks at DOUBLE damage.
Szat 04-14-05, 04:59 AM	This attack will do 200+ damage in a single round. For 3 measly Power Points.
dantedarkstar 04-14-05, 07:29 AM	As far as I know, Battle Jump was changed somewhere during transition to 3.5 (Complete Warrior I think) to give +1d12 damage (or something like that), instead of doubling. Probably to avoid such overkills. Edit: If it was in UE, the change could be in PGtF
deduke 04-14-05, 08:11 AM	For the character idea and for better ruling let the player take a look at leap attack from complete warrior. You need to make a jump attack as well during a charge, if you beat a certain dc you can get extra dmg from power attack. 2:1 with a 1 handed weapon or 3:1 with a 2-handed weapon. For a good idea on what the player is going to do take a look at the fleshraker from MM3, it has a leaping pounce ability almost equal to the battle jump feat but just slightly better :) I think i would let the player use the jump skill to come from above he just has to get this high (at least 5ft above the floor) decide on a reasonable jump check before hand. And remmeber if this is the only trick the character can perform its not all that great just adjust the monsters you pick a bit (large creatures can be good because he needs to get above those as well increasing the dc by a lot). regards deDuke
Zym 04-14-05, 02:57 PM	Check this thread for some additional input: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=373149 Also there is a few Jump/Tumble treads if you care to search them out using the google wotc bbs only option. With the FAQ info on Jumping and Tumbling and Charges most of this is quite doable.