Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rillek_Denar 05-06-07, 08:36 PM	Here's my situation: I'm a college student, and I both play and DM. I'm just starting summer vacation, and excited to D&D with my friends from home. Just one problem: the player most excited about D&D refuses to do point buy. It's a long-standing argument between us and now it's come to a head. The main argument: ME: Point-buy ensures that the creation process is fair for all players. No one starts out with an undue advantage. HIM: But it's not as fun. D&D is about rolling dice. ME: I know that, and I'll happily let you roll for everything else, but we're doing point buy. HIM: I'm not playing. I'm giving them 32-points (I want characters just slightly below what I see as standard power), and I'm stymied. I don't want to roll; every time we roll up new characters, somehow he has better scores than anyone else. I can't really let him go (other than being one of my best friends, he's also one of only three players. So what the heck do I do?
DarthMidget 05-06-07, 08:40 PM	You could give him the option of taking the point buy or rolling 3d6. Of course make sure if he takes the rolls he does so in front of you.
darkeness 05-06-07, 08:44 PM	You could give him the option of taking the point buy or rolling 3d6. Of course make sure if he takes the rolls he does so in front of you. I agree. He MUST roll in front of you. I would even give him 4d6 (no rerolls of 1's like some games) and let him place his stats. Odds are he will be at about the same or lower as a 32 point buy unless he is really, really lucky. Oh, make him roll all his hp too, even at first level and always in front of you.
maharai23 05-06-07, 08:57 PM	I agree. He MUST roll in front of you. I would even give him 4d6 (no rerolls of 1's like some games) and let him place his stats. Odds are he will be at about the same or lower as a 32 point buy unless he is really, really lucky. Oh, make him roll all his hp too, even at first level and always in front of you. Difference on that one is that the rules explicitly state max hp at levels 1 and 2, along with the standard roll method for character creation. The player is effectively trying to maintain the status quo on the rolling. It's hard to break another rule when the player's trying to argue for the rules as written. The point buy is an alternate rule in the DMG (and 32 points is considered "High Power", just for your reference).
Rillek_Denar 05-06-07, 09:05 PM	Difference on that one is that the rules explicitly state max hp at levels 1 and 2, along with the standard roll method for character creation. The player is effectively trying to maintain the status quo on the rolling. It's hard to break another rule when the player's trying to argue for the rules as written. The point buy is an alternate rule in the DMG (and 32 points is considered "High Power", just for your reference). Dude, did you read my OP? The issue here is point buy, not HP. darkness was offering a tangential suggestion. And where does it say max at levels 1 and 2? That's not a D&D rule. It's just 1.
maharai23 05-06-07, 09:11 PM	Dude, did you read my OP? The issue here is point buy, not HP. darkness was offering a tangential suggestion. And where does it say max at levels 1 and 2? That's not a D&D rule. It's just 1. I did. Did you read the post above mine? Check the section on PC's above first level. It maxes the first two there.
superjesusfromthefuture 05-06-07, 09:22 PM	I feel that you are the DM and he is the player. You make a game world, adventures and everything else, you know what im talking about; you put hours and hours of prep time into the game and still spend the time to run the game. He shows up, plays and leaves, does nothing until next meeting. If you feel that point buy is the best way to do things, its up to you, the DM. If he doesnt like it, tough, tell him thats the way it is. If you feel like you can make a deal with him, ok work it out, but dont do things that will mess up the game, make it unbalanced or upset other players who might also want to do the same. If i were the DM, i wouldnt care if they didnt play, there are always other people (at least near me:D ) I had a situation where my good friend didnt agree with a house rule i had while running a game (one that was in place to make something slightly more realistic) all other players agreed. He never brought any complaints up until it directly effected him, then he started arguing. i told him its not gonna change (after i listend to what he had to say, and decided he didnt have a good argument) and he continued arguing. i told him to go home. He left, and hasnt been invited back since.
Rillek_Denar 05-06-07, 09:27 PM	I did. Did you read the post above mine? Check the section on PC's above first level. It maxes the first two there. DMG pg 199 "Max hp at first level and rolled hp for every level thereafter." PHB pg 23 "For his or her first HD, a 1st-level character gets the maximum hit points rather than rolling. Where are you reading?
loaba 05-06-07, 09:47 PM	I'm big on compromising, so I'd offer everyone a choice of rolling 4d6DTL or 32pb. I think that's perfectly fair. Note 1: 32pb is actually quite powerful in a 4-player game. Note 2: as others have said, everyone who elects to roll stats should do so in front of you.
Mock26 05-06-07, 10:49 PM	Just out of idle curiosity, why is it such a horrible crime if someone starts out with a so-called undue advantage because they got lucky on rolling some dice? Personally, I'd let him roll as it is written in the DMG. The law of averages says that he will more than likely wind up with a "typical" set of stats for a 1st level character. If his stats are on the weak side, then he'll just have to deal with it. If his stats are on the strong side, then the others will just have to deal with it. It isn't unfair to the others when one person has better stats than they do. Any claims of unfairness are just childish whining. It's not the person who rolled the dice made the numbers turn up the way they did. He got lucky. The others didn't. Their solution? Throw a tantrum and claim that it is unfair.
Eric888 05-06-07, 11:06 PM	His threat to not play sounds like a bluff. At most he may miss the first session before deciding to use point buy. Just stick to your guns. He'll complain but eventually decide that its better then not playing. I disagree with the other people about forcing him to roll in front of you. For one, it may not fix anything. And secondly, it seems rude since you've been friends for so long. And forcing him to roll 3d6 if he rolls is a non-starter that will only seem punitive. Personally I used to be a desciple of rolling, since I found point buy to be too cookie cutter. After running a few games of half the players with broken stats and the other half feeling jaded, I've become a bigger fan of point buy.
loaba 05-06-07, 11:15 PM	Just out of idle curiosity, why is it such a horrible crime if someone starts out with a so-called undue advantage because they got lucky on rolling some dice? :rolleyes: Based on the above tirade, I'd say this is anything but idle curiosity. You, sir, clearly have an axe to grind. When you honestly rolled stats, say 7, 10, 11, 13, 14, 10, yeah I think you may be at a disadvantage vs. the guy who's sporting a 18, 16, 12, 11, 14 & 10. Simply put, yes, stat points do matter. You just can't get around that, this is a numbers game after all. Using the Point Buy system is a great way to ensure that everyone is on a level playing field.
Crichton 05-06-07, 11:17 PM	If you're DMing then it's up to you. If he won't respect your authority on this issue before the game even starts then it won't be a fun game. Just let him know that you want him to play, he can roll his character if he wants, or he can DM the game. The rest is up to you. Personally, I hate rolling for anything related to character creation. I absolutly detest it. If I have bad luck on my HP rolls and I'm playing a Barbarian the Monk right next to me can have good luck and far more HP then me. It doesn't make any sense to leave that up to chance. Why aren't skill points rolled then? D8 for rogues, D4 for Monks, etc, etc. I want to see a Rogue that can't do anything well....apparently that's fun for some people. The classes are supposed to be balanced to make them somewhat even. A Barbarian is supposed to have more HP then the other classes, so why leave this to chance? There's still variation in Constitution scores, class choice, and feats. I feel the same way about rolling a 1 on saves.
AffableDoomwalker 05-06-07, 11:32 PM	Solution: He may roll once, 4d4, drop one. No rerolls. Not even for "hopeless" characters. If this friend is not satisfied with the character he created, too bad, because he's just defaulted to: 30 Point Buy. Badabing. Present that compromise to him, see how it goes.
Lord_Varos 05-06-07, 11:34 PM	So, would the DM spend everyone's points on the point-buy system as well? It seems like the only fair way is to have the DM just assign everyone stats. Because the theory from the above posts that the issue with rolling that it often ends up with characters with abilities better than the others. But the same is true of point-buy. If a player happens to be better at maximizing point value than the others, won't he also end up with the advantage, while their points rather go to waste? And it's not valid to say that having a good point-buy optimizer is a more level playing fiend than having a player who elects to roll stats and ends up lucky. Because choosing where to put one's ability points is just as much a choice based on experience as choose to roll or not is. If they try to optimize by choosing another method of ability score generation, this cannot be considered fundamentally "less fair" than having a player be better at point-buy strategy. I personally use only point buy and require all players to use this same method. But not everyone has to play the that way we do.
superjesusfromthefuture 05-06-07, 11:37 PM	Rolling for char. during creation can become very unbalanced, and even damage a game in the long run. I also think that its half the fun of a whole campaign, its intense and entertaining and the DM doesnt even need to ldo any work (MY FAVORITE) I alow players to roll or do point buy, their choice, but everyone always rolls. i once played in a single adventure for my friend who was DMing as a "guest PC" to try and see if i could get the permanant party to work more like a team and to introduce some new tactics to the very angry, unpatient hack and slash party. I got there and he said go ahead and roll your guy up. I had no intention ot be party leader or take the spotlight or break the game, only there to hel pthem with their problem, but i had rolled 3 18s, 1 16 1 14 and a 12. To balance it, i made a sorc. that had 18 str, 18 con and 18 dex, 16 cha. I killed more enemies with my morning star then spells. (i didnt want to play the game for them so i made it kind of odd) but see what could happen with rolling! (BTW, it was a first LvL campaign... hehehe)
loaba 05-06-07, 11:42 PM	It seems like the only fair way is to have the DM just assign everyone stats. Because it seems from the above post that the issue with rolling that it often ends up with characters with abilities better than the others. But the same is true of point-buy. If a player happens to be better at maximizing point value than the others, won't he also end up with the advantage, while their points rather go to waste? Well do this one at a time... DM Array: NO!!!!!!!!!! That blows, been there done that. When you're making a character, whether you roll or use PB, you need to place your points/rolls where they will best serve your character idea/concept/build/story/whatever. PB doest NOT make for a level playing field because some players expertly optimize and others don't: NO!!!!!!!! That's the point of using PB in the first place, everyone gets the same points and can use 'em wherever they like. If one person divides their points in such away that it is not optimal for their character idea/concept/build/story/whatever, that's not the fault of the PB system.
Ack 05-06-07, 11:47 PM	Point out to him that rolling 4d6 DTL gives an average roll of 12.24 ... while 32 point buy gives an average stat of 13.33. And hell yes, make it clear that he will be rolling in front of you. I grab the chance to do point buy every time I can - at least I know my character won't be below a certain level of ability... Alternatively ... let him roll, and then base the point buy off what he gets :D
loaba 05-06-07, 11:53 PM	Alternatively ... let him roll, and then base the point buy off what he gets :D Now there is a capitol idea! I like it! Just hope the dude doesn't roll Teh Suck or Uber Awesome; either extreme would be bad news.
Lord_Varos 05-06-07, 11:55 PM	I killed more enemies with my morning star then spells. Well, the unbalancing of a Sorcerer with high Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution and his subsequent power in melee might be because of something else besides rolling. but see what could happen with rolling! (BTW, it was a first LvL campaign... hehehe) Seeing that the attack bonus of +4 from Strength is increased only by +1 if you were the Fighter, or not at all from Sorcerer, it's understandable that at first level, a high-stat character would be extra-effective. But when this is offset by that same Fighter, who now only has 5% Base attack on you, at 16th level having +8 attack bonus higher, assuming you also focus on increasing Strength and take Weapon Focus (he will have +10 on you if you do not). Oh, and he'll have more attacks and damage from feats than you, and a higher Armor Class. But your Sorcerer will blow at spellcasting. You won't have a spell with save DC over 22, and that is your very best spell with Spell Focus. f one person divides their points in such away that it is not optimal for their character idea/concept/build/story/whatever, that's not the fault of the PB system. That's right. It's the fault of the group for choosing a system that favors experienced players' characters over newer ones'. I couldn't agree more. But the fact that it's not the fault of the system doesn't address the main issue: does rolling stats make the game less fun? The question is simple: Will having your one player have ability scores a bit above the others (not likely anyway, but a possibility) make the game less fun for anyone involved? Will having one fewer players, and an excited, fun player at that, not play in a three-person group make it less fun for anyone? Is having his spells be cast with a +1 higher save DC from Intelligence or having a +1 bonus to AC from a higher Dexterity worth losing the player or even having him feel cheated?
Mock26 05-06-07, 11:58 PM	:rolleyes: Based on the above tirade, I'd say this is anything but idle curiosity. You, sir, clearly have an axe to grind. When you honestly rolled stats, say 7, 10, 11, 13, 14, 10, yeah I think you may be at a disadvantage vs. the guy who's sporting a 18, 16, 12, 11, 14 & 10. Simply put, yes, stat points do matter. You just can't get around that, this is a numbers game after all. Using the Point Buy system is a great way to ensure that everyone is on a level playing field. Disadvantage? Maybe. Undue disadvantage? No. Unfair? Definitely NOT. I never said that there wasn't an advantage or disadvantage based on stats. I'm wondering why people claim it is so unfair. This is, after all, a numbers game and when those numbers are randomly generated you will wind up with situations where others do better based solely on a randomly generated number. That is not unfair. That is simply the way that the dice roll. To claim that the above mentioned stats are unfair is nothing more than childish jealousy.
trapspringer 05-06-07, 11:59 PM	ATTN OP: He's bluffing. No one doesn't play over PB vs 4d6. If he doesn't I can't imagine he'd be worth playing with anyway.
loaba 05-07-07, 12:19 AM	Disadvantage? Maybe. Undue disadvantage? No. Unfair? Definitely NOT. I never said that there wasn't an advantage or disadvantage based on stats. I'm wondering why people claim it is so unfair. This is, after all, a numbers game and when those numbers are randomly generated you will wind up with situations where others do better based solely on a randomly generated number. That is not unfair. That is simply the way that the dice roll. To claim that the above mentioned stats are unfair is nothing more than childish jealousy. Rolling isn't technically unfair in that everyone uses the same function to generate stats randomly. Fair enough, I get that. But, rolling does assure that some people will be more or less powerful, and that is, by definition, unfair. PB assures that everyone starts out with same assets. What they do with them, how they spend those points, is irrelevant.
Salla 05-07-07, 12:31 AM	He's right. Playing D&D is about (or at least heavily involves rolling dice). Character Creation is not, technically, playing. It's still in the prepatory stages. ;) If you can find it, get the Dragon Magazine with the 3 Dragon Ante readings for character creation (it suggests a 3 Dragon Ante deck, but they have rules for using a regular poker deck as well). This combines the two nicely ... you have a set number of points, but the cards distribute the points randomly. If that's not an option, stick to your guns. It is your game, and if he doesn't like your rules, it's his right to not play.
AffableDoomwalker 05-07-07, 01:10 AM	Rolling isn't technically unfair in that everyone uses the same function to generate stats randomly. Fair enough, I get that. But, rolling does assure that some people will be more or less powerful, and that is, by definition, unfair. PB assures that everyone starts out with same assets. What they do with them, how they spend those points, is irrelevant. Ignoring the fact that this is a fantasy game, where you effectively deny reality at every possible turning point... Life is unfair. Rolls are rolls. Some people prefer to take the risk of having a subpar or mediocre character, and really, whats one more roll of chance in a game entirely based around chance? I can go either way, which is why when I DM, I offer two options, why not? I think the rules I posted above are more than fair.
loaba 05-07-07, 01:24 AM	Life is unfair. So because life is unfair, the games we play should be as well? :rolleyes: I guess I don't get that logic. Look, if everyone at the table is cool with taking a chance at greatness by rolling the dice, and they're equally cool with dealing with the suckiness that may come instead, that's great. Those people should be happy with what they get; they knew going in that somebody was going to get great scores and somebody else was going to get the shaft. I guess as much as I like to roll, I realize that PB is the fairer method of the two.
AffableDoomwalker 05-07-07, 01:47 AM	So because life is unfair, the games we play should be as well? :rolleyes: Look, if everyone at the table is cool with taking a chance at greatness by rolling the dice, and they're equally cool with dealing with the suckiness that may come instead, that's great. Those people should be happy with what they get; they knew going in that somebody was going to get great scores and somebody else was going to get the shaft. I guess as much as I like to roll, I realize that PB is the fairer method of the two. How can you miss the logic? Its quite logical. Dice roll, they fall (chance kicks in, determines how things go), numbers show, the end. You're born, you live (chance kicks in, determines how things go), you die, the end. Theres nothing dictating who will and will not get great scores or the shaft (respectively), if anyone. Someone might get hosed/great scores, everyone might, no one might. Thats the way the dice roll. D&D, regardless of character creation methods, is still a game of chance.
Rillek_Denar 05-07-07, 12:54 PM	Thanks for all the great ideas (and all the odd ones) guys. I either will stick with it (which means I'll have either two players or three players, one of whom is very sheepish), or use his scores to set the point buy.
darkeness 05-07-07, 01:33 PM	Difference on that one is that the rules explicitly state max hp at levels 1 and 2, along with the standard roll method for character creation. The player is effectively trying to maintain the status quo on the rolling. It's hard to break another rule when the player's trying to argue for the rules as written. The point buy is an alternate rule in the DMG (and 32 points is considered "High Power", just for your reference). Actually I do believe the rules say max at level 1. I offered the option of rolling HP becuase in the OP's own words "But it's not as fun. D&D is about rolling dice." It has been my experience that many players want to do this to fudge rolls, not "to maintain the status quo". Personally I used to be a desciple of rolling, since I found point buy to be too cookie cutter. After running a few games of half the players with broken stats and the other half feeling jaded, I've become a bigger fan of point buy. I was too and went to point buy for exactly the same reason. I have a player that hates point buy and so I do let him roll (4d6 DTL) and I make him do it in front of me. I disagree with the other people about forcing him to roll in front of you. For one, it may not fix anything. And secondly, it seems rude since you've been friends for so long. Rude, perhaps, but it keeps them honest. Many (but not all) proponants of dice rolled characters roll them alone and tend to end up with above average stats. Players that will not accept a Dm's rulings during character creation tend to be disruptive during play as well. If they are friends, then they should be able to work this out. So if your friend asks "Don't you trust me" you can say, "Sure I do, but this way when you roll your stats and the other players don't believe you rolled that well I can tell them I watched you do it, because that's what friends are for!"
CroBob 05-07-07, 02:16 PM	Rolling isn't technically unfair in that everyone uses the same function to generate stats randomly. Fair enough, I get that. But, rolling does assure that some people will be more or less powerful, and that is, by definition, unfair. No, it's unequal. They played by the same rules, and it is, therefore, fair.
loaba 05-07-07, 02:25 PM	No, it's unequal. They played by the same rules, and it is, therefore, fair. I'll accept that, thanks for the correction.
LordLongshadow 05-08-07, 10:42 AM	I used to have that problem myself. I played in a game in college (D&D 2.0) where one or two people always showed up with great stats (you know, 2 18's , 2 16's ,15, 14) and I used to get upset. Now, as a DM, I say don't sweat it. In fact the game I am running now I told them this, "Roll up your stats however you want, but don't insult my intelligence!". And of course someone showed up with stats like I mentioned above. Back to the point. In my opinion, great stats will protect up until about 5-6th level. After that, the fighter with 14 stregnth kills and dies about the same as the fighter with 18 stregnth. P.S. If I were in your game, I would take the 32 point buy and RUN!!
Ack 05-08-07, 10:47 AM	P.S. If I were in your game, I would take the 32 point buy and RUN!! Quoted for Truth. I remember in one online game I played, we each rolled stats, and one player came back with truly awesome stats. And then I checked Invisible Castle. And found the forty-three other sets of stats he'd rolled before choosing this one.
CCS 05-08-07, 02:22 PM	I don't see any problem here. Simply give each player the choice to either point-buy or roll. All rolls should of course be done in your presence.... Those who like PB will be happy, & those who want to try thier luck will be happy. And no-one should be complaining because each had the same option as everyone else.
Sunic_Flames 05-08-07, 02:37 PM	Another one of those threads I see... Rather than comment directly, I will just say this. 4d6 drop lowest reroll 1s = 18 (6, 6, 6, 6), 17, 16, 14, 12, 10 (51 PB). The next set to be rolled under the same system was 13, 14, 12, 14, 10, 13 (28 PB). Normally I allow for some discrepencies to provide some degree of uniqueness, but I had him reroll that.
sineous blackspell 05-08-07, 02:49 PM	have him roll stats in your presence with dice you provide (there are cheater dice) im not saying hes not a lucky roller because if he is he shouldnt have a problem with this id also let the others have the option but they all have to agree to take what they wind up with itd be better to let him have his way than loose someone who is your friend (assuming hes your friend)
Ceirnian 05-08-07, 04:27 PM	If you can find it, get the Dragon Magazine with the 3 Dragon Ante readings for character creation (it suggests a 3 Dragon Ante deck, but they have rules for using a regular poker deck as well). This combines the two nicely ... you have a set number of points, but the cards distribute the points randomly. Anyone know what dragon magizine has that? I want to see if I can buy it, that sounds awesome.
Madoffler 05-08-07, 04:43 PM	the player most excited about D&D... You got your answer right there! If he's really intrested in playing it wont matter. It sounds to me like there's something else going on here. I assume your friend is around your age and your in college. His actions sound childish and make me think that there maybe some other reason he'd have for throwing a power trip...
Ack 05-09-07, 12:01 AM	Very slightly off topic, but I once had a player who (for several and varied reasons - apparently) could never get together with me to roll stats for his character. So I told him, "Roll 3d6 exactly 6 times. Don't add any bonuses. Just bring the raw numbers to me. Don't re-roll." When he proudly showed me the numbers (and I swear, the lowest was 15) I said, "Damn, that's too bad." He asked why. I handed him a piece of paper. On it was written, "Subtract each number from 21. Those are your stats." For some reason, that character didn't last long.
Salla 05-09-07, 12:45 AM	Anyone know what dragon magizine has that? I want to see if I can buy it, that sounds awesome. I just got mine back from a friend. #346.
secher_nbiw45 05-09-07, 02:14 AM	I don't see any problem here. Simply give each player the choice to either point-buy or roll. All rolls should of course be done in your presence.... Those who like PB will be happy, & those who want to try thier luck will be happy. And no-one should be complaining because each had the same option as everyone else. this makes perfect sense. my way or the highway? are you playing at work? do you supervise your gamers or play with them? if you dont do this, i hope your gamer quits. i have, and would again, because its preposterous to force upon someone the technique they use to roll up their character.
Yokomohoyo 05-09-07, 02:55 AM	Your going with a 32 point buy system instead of a 36 (wich is max if he rolled perfict). Now just talk to your friend and explain that you wish to play a high power campain and that if he rolled up his character, that character will be underpowered compared to the other players. Since their characters would have options of at least 18, 18, 10, 12, 12, 12 if they wanted to min/max their characters. Wile his character will get lucky to have one 18 in his stats let alone two... If he insists on rolling after that then hand him 4d6 from your die bag and let him roll.
Hakar_Kerarmor 05-09-07, 07:34 AM	How about rolling once for all players, and letting them distribute the stats as they wish. You get the randomness of rolling, yet everyone is equally powerful.
Ack 05-09-07, 11:04 AM	How about rolling once for all players, and letting them distribute the stats as they wish. You get the randomness of rolling, yet everyone is equally powerful. And thus taking away the option of point buy from those who want it. No ... I think the following options should be explored (in order): 1) The player gets given 32 point buy 2) The player gets given 4d6 DTL and the rest get 32 point buy 3) The player gets given 4d6 DTL and the point buy for everyone else is figured on what he gets I'd go with 2) myself; if he's aware that 32PB is superior on average to 46DTL, and he still chooses to roll, then no-one's forcing him to take it. And the other players can have their 32 points.
Grand Theft Otto 05-09-07, 11:41 AM	Stick with your guns. Point buy or let him walk. Rolling is for whiners anyways. If they dont do better than other players, they cry until they get new stats, or their character retires quickly. Typical gamer schadenfreude and all. Same reason they want rolled HP, so they can get max while their "friends" get 1's and 2's. Or let him roll 3d4 for stats if rolling is so important. IMO, character gen (including leveling up) should be non-random. The game itself (attacks, saves, etc) should be.
Aminvelos 05-09-07, 01:47 PM	I suggest a 32 point buy system or a 1d6 + 1d8 + 4 roll, if you roll you have to roll infront of the dm. Dice roll will give you an average of 12, let the player choose which way he'll create his character.