Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Furious D 18 12-02-05, 11:17 AM	So the campaign-ending battle with the Pit Fiend BBEG is coming up and I want to make sure I have a firm grasp of it's abilities before I run the battle. On pg. 87 of the 3.5 MM, It lists a "Tactics Round-by-Round" section for the pit fiend. Round 1 has him using a quickened Fireball spell and another spell. However, it doesn't say quickened Fireball for any of the other rounds. Tactics Round-by-Round A pit fiend typically opens combat by using its spell-like abilities, attempting to neutralize dangerous opponents before entering melee. Prior to combat: Unholy aura; activate fear aura, summon devil. Round 1: Quickened fireball and mass hold monster if facing three or more visible, active opponents; otherwise power word stun against unarmored opponent (preferably a spellcaster). Round 2: Meteor swarm against as many foes as possible, approach worst-injured enemy. Round 3: Full attack against injured enemy. Round 4: Continue melee against injured enemy, or power word stun against annoying spellcaster. Round 5: Repeat from round 1, or greater teleport to safety if endangered. If the Pit Fiend has quickened Fireball as a spell-like ability, wouldn't he want to use it every round? Whether or not he can or does use it every round could have a huge impact on the battle. Also, the Pit Fiend has Greater Teleport as a spell-like ability. What are some good ways to prevent him from escaping with this ability, other than Dimensional Anchor? I'll appreciate any insight you can give. Thanks. EDIT: For all of you who are curious what a Pit Fiend can and would do in a fight, here is what I have concluded. Pit fiends are incredibly intelligent and wise. They have been in many fights and would never stay and fight to the death if escape was an option. With Regeneration, a Pit Fiend could go from 1 HP to full health in a matter of minutes. If a battle is not going his way, he will teleport (or go invisible and fly) to safety and heal. Yes, his opponents can heal during this time too, but they will waste resources and will have to buff themselves up again. He will continue this cycle of fight, flee, heal until they are dead. Don't overlook the Fiend's Greater Dispel Magic ability. If an opponent's weapons overcome his massive Damage Reduction, he can use his ability to make it uneffective. Grapple those spellcasters. With a +35 grapple check, he can teleport behind people and grapple them to prevent spellcasting. Can a Pit Fiend fly away if he is grappling someone? I don't know, but it's an idea he'd consider. Also, he can summon other Devils and create undead to keep his opponents busy while he regenerates or fights off one or two attackers. The best tactics against a Pit Fiend are True Seeing so you know where he is and aren't fooled by his Persistant Image ability, Dimensional Anchor/Dimensional Lock to keep him in one place, and Control Winds to keep him from flying around the battlefield. Those are my conclusions. If you have anything to add, please do.
StormCrow42 12-02-05, 12:15 PM	The pit fiend can cast fireball at will, but the quicken spell like ability feat that allows him to quicken it only works 3 times/day. I expect that like every intelligently portrayed monster, he may not want to expend all his quickened fireballs right away, in anticipation of possibly having to fight later.
CzarGarrett 12-02-05, 02:01 PM	The pit fiend can cast fireball at will, but the quicken spell like ability feat that allows him to quicken it only works 3 times/day. I expect that like every intelligently portrayed monster, he may not want to expend all his quickened fireballs right away, in anticipation of possibly having to fight later. Or quicken something else to get him out of trouble later in the current fight.
avatar6v7 12-02-05, 02:18 PM	he repeats round 1 until the quickened bit runs out, then he just teleports to a vantage point and continously cast fireball, if the PC's run he teleports to a differant location and does it from there. Not in the monster manuel but you shouldnt rely totally in the book for monster tactics or your players might well know exactly whats coming, and will win far more easily
janusthinker 12-02-05, 03:24 PM	The issue of the Pit Fiend's Teleport Without Error spell-like ability has been unaddressed as yet. Among one's options... -Despite the Pit Fiend's ungodly high Concentration bonus, it's still a perfectly viable point that Spell-Like Abilities provoke attacks of opportunity. If you can deal out enough damage to make him hurt (difficult, but hardly impossible), an attempt to flee could fizzle. An invisible Rogue kept in reserve would be a good resource for countering that-a Sneak Attack used to finish off a foe rather than weakening him at the beginning of combat is just as good (or better). -Drop an Antimagic Field over the area the Pit Fiend is in. By the level at which you can take on a Pit Fiend and not be mashed into paste, it's likely an available spell. It may limit your own combat options, but the Pit Fiend will suddenly be deprived of many of the abilities he normally relies upon, and your group will have the element of surprise. And more esoterically... -Have a Spellthief on your team. By high levels, he can steal Spell-Like Abilities, and remove the Pit Fiend's ability to flee (and, I'd suggest, his spell-like ability of Invisibility, as well) while leaving your own spellcasters their normal flexibility.
Lincoln Hills 12-02-05, 03:50 PM	They may have nerfed the Fiend in 3.5, but I ran a 3.0 pit fiend as a character briefly - as a pre-gen handed out by the DM, I hasten to add, people - and I don't think anything preps a DM to depict a monster better than running one as a player for a while. Pit fiends can perform unholy aura at will... which means that any time there's even a possibility of confrontation, the pit fiend will have it on. Remember that a saving throw is required every time a foe strikes the fiend. If the party has no idea that a pit fiend lies ahead, then dropping a few fire-spells on them right out of the gate is a good idea: but if they're forewarned, then skip the fire - they'll be prepared against it. Polymorphing robs the fiend of a lot of its natural abilities (regen, elemental immunity, etc.) but sometimes the deceptive value of that spell is too great to ignore - and there are a few forms which confer abilities the fiend himself will not possess. Remember that Huge forms are an option because of the fiend's natural size (again, I'm using the edited 3.0 version of the spell in my head - check my facts against the 3.5 version.) An area dispel probably won't cripple the party terribly, but it's a good first-round move - could knock away a few of their so-carefully-prepared buff spells. A pit fiend's natural weapons are pretty devastating, particularly its bite (spells like bull's strength or the 3.5 spell that replaced magic fang should be kept handy). A two-handed weapon of appropriate size, and reach, can do giant-class damage (and the fiend still has his natural weapons for use against foes who come too close to be chopped up), assuming the fiend has taken an appropriate feat or class. The pit fiend's main disadvantage is a lack of healing magic. Popping away for a few rounds just to regenerate is a bad idea - the party will use the time to heal themselves as well, and set a trap. A better tactic is to teleport and, while regenerating, use the power to summon a couple of lesser devils - send them back to the battlefield to absorb the party's ire, and drop in a round or two later. If the party knows what they're up against, they'll probably have holy weapons - or, at the least, a lot of holy water. The fiend's best bet against such stuff is to make use of its illusion abilities - send in an illusion in the first round and you can bet a number of holy arrows, holy water, etc. will be wasted on it. There's no way I know of to get around the vulnerability to such blessed stuff, so the fiend will probably have to try Sunder (or, if it has some truly unusual feats for its species, Improved Disarm) to get those weapons out of his enemies' hands.
janusthinker 12-02-05, 04:03 PM	Criminey. Upon inspecting the Spellthief more carefully, it appears that he cannot steal a Pit Fiend's Greater Teleport spell-like ability, not without being 21st level, anyway. Stealing spell-like abilities is limited to spell equivalencies of 1/3 the Spellthief's level. Apparently it's more difficult to take spell-like abilities than spells. Nonetheless, I'd advocate a Spellthief as a solid team-member against a foe like this that uses quite a few magic abilities offensively. Heck, take his Fireball. Can't Quicken it if you don't got it... :plotting:
StormCrow42 12-02-05, 06:55 PM	Or quicken something else to get him out of trouble later in the current fight. Yea, except that Quicken SLA is tied to a single SLA (in the Pit Fiend's case, his fireball), so fireballs are the only SLA he can quicken (3 times/day) as I said before.
^Graff_EpsilonIX 12-02-05, 06:59 PM	You can always modify the tactics. Also, as it is the BBEG and this is his final battle, go all out. Use everything you can to kill the PCs, including terrain bonuses... Go for the Call of Cthulhu style massacre.
Koji 12-02-05, 07:46 PM	I suggest you make the arena be some intricately trapped area so that the fiend can herd everyone around without much effort. Say you've got an 80x80 platform over lava or something and everything is trapped except the 30 feet in the middle. This is especially useful if some of your characters can fly or shrug off the effect of the traps--If he strings the group out, they lose the ability to really concentrate their fire on him (especially if he summons some of his fire-immune friends inside that 30 foot square). Since he's one guy against a group, his first concern should be to make sure that not everyone is hitting him. Devils are immune to fire and poison--I'm thinking some sort of metal grating on the ground that periodically emits massive amounts of inhaled poison or magical fire. The central area could be more solid and used to lend a false sense of security to the party. Once his trap kicks in, he can move around on the grid freely. If the party stays in the center, they lose melee effectiveness and can easily be fireballed to death, and if they move out of it, they risk getting split up and killed by the traps. A trap is especially useful because it's easy to fudge if the encounter winds up being too hard or too easy. The players don't know how often the trap goes off or how long it will work, and that means you can turn it off or kick it into overdrive depending on how the fight goes.
anders 12-02-05, 08:25 PM	What I've found to be nice is to have the pit fiend try to maintain max distance and haul fireballs into the party. If its at night, its even a good chance the party wont even know where they are beeing attacked from. Also remember to use the fly ability to keep away from the main tanks. If you want to use limited space, at least have darkness or some other light nerfing effect in there (pit fiends can see in darkness). Also remember that the Pit fiend has an intelligence score of 26. His Godike intellect justifies some minor metagaming from your side. Basically just play the Pit fiend like a catious mage trying to avoid melee.
Furious D 18 12-03-05, 01:29 AM	Thanks for the ideas everyone. In this case, the Pit Fiend will be waiting for the PCs on the top of a high tower (think Saurumon's tower in LotR where he kept Gandalf). The party is evil so they won't have any good weapons for overcoming DR. However, they will have some neutral cohorts that will. I suspect that the party wizard will cast dimensional anchor on the battlefield and may even have dispel magic lined up in case the Pit Fiend gets away from the dim. anchor. (I'm pretty sure spell-like abilities can be dispelled). Someone reminded me that Pit Fiends are immune to fire so I'll have him spread oil around the ground where he waits and then ignite it as the party gets close. A battle in the middle of a raging fire is just too cool to pass up. My major problem with the battle is this: The Pit Fiend will want to fly away (or even jump off the tower) to get away from the dimensional anchor spell so that he can teleport away once he is injured enough. How can the PCs possibly stop him from getting away? I want the battle to end here. I don't want him to get away but I don't want him to stay and fight if it isn't what he would do when faced with certain death. Basically, I'm looking for a way to prevent him from getting away. I don't see how I can do that and still have the battle on this tower. And I really want it up there... seems cool. I appreciate the suggestions so far, but still welcome more if you guys have 'em.
WCH 12-03-05, 01:49 AM	My favourite Pit Fiend tactic is to constantly fly up while fighting, and then make use of "hold monster" on the fool who flies after you.
Cantankerous 12-03-05, 01:55 AM	The Pit Fiend is super humanly Intelligent and superhumanly Wise (both at 26 base). One sould keep this in mind when devising their battle tactics. He'll use that Greater Teleport the instant he gets into trouble and from that point on between Greater Teleport, Invisibility and Persistent Image it may be hard to tell where he's attacking from at all, until it's too late. Don't forget, this son of a gun has a Hide of 25 and a Move Silently of 29, base. He'll use his Greater Dispel Magic to good effect too. If a frontal assault doesn't seem, to that supernal intellect of his, to be a bright idea, he'll be a sniper. "Pit Fiends are wily and resourceful fighters." They aren't brain dead truls. They won't simply wade into battle against a parties tanks and ignore the Magi, unless by doing so there is a HUGE hidden tacticl advantage to be had. Maybe he'll summon aid. Add a Horned Devil to a fight with a Pit Fiend and things have just gone from bad to dire. He'll likely use the comparitively moronic Horned Devil to catch the PCs interest and then flatten the whole area that devil is fighting in with a Meteor Storm. He regenerates pretty quickly, so he'll leave if he needs to and hit and run and hit and run and hit and run if he can wear his opponents down in the process. The main thing is, with the intellect he has and the centuries of practical in combat experience to back it up, he'll never simply stand to take a pounding just because the book states that he waits until round five to Greater Teleport to safety if he's in trouble. He'll do it in round two (or one) if it's needed and then play cat with the mouse with the party. Isshia
Cantankerous 12-03-05, 02:07 AM	Thanks for the ideas everyone. In this case, the Pit Fiend will be waiting for the PCs on the top of a high tower (think Saurumon's tower in LotR where he kept Gandalf). The party is evil so they won't have any good weapons for overcoming DR. However, they will have some neutral cohorts that will. I suspect that the party wizard will cast dimensional anchor on the battlefield and may even have dispel magic lined up in case the Pit Fiend gets away from the dim. anchor. (I'm pretty sure spell-like abilities can be dispelled). Someone reminded me that Pit Fiends are immune to fire so I'll have him spread oil around the ground where he waits and then ignite it as the party gets close. A battle in the middle of a raging fire is just too cool to pass up. My major problem with the battle is this: The Pit Fiend will want to fly away (or even jump off the tower) to get away from the dimensional anchor spell so that he can teleport away once he is injured enough. How can the PCs possibly stop him from getting away? I want the battle to end here. I don't want him to get away but I don't want him to stay and fight if it isn't what he would do when faced with certain death. Basically, I'm looking for a way to prevent him from getting away. I don't see how I can do that and still have the battle on this tower. And I really want it up there... seems cool. I appreciate the suggestions so far, but still welcome more if you guys have 'em. Keep in mind his own unlimited Greater Dispel Magic and his eighteenth level of ability casting it. Dimensional Anchor is easy enough to Dispel. The Pit Fiends flight is not depndant on magic, so stopping him from doing so will necessitate binding his wings or making it impossible for anyone to fly. Jumping down from the tower shouldn't be a serious option. Too much damage is taken in a fall like that, even for a Pit Fiend, too strongly consider it except in true extremis. Another thing to remember, is that he won't let the party dictate the course of the battle if he can help it. He's supernally intelligent AND a wily combatant. He'll know how to counter most anything the party might throw at him if he's not pressed from the beginning; so he'll try HARD to make sure he isn't pressed from the beginning. With Spot and Listen both at 29, he'll probably be damned hard to sneak up on too. Isshia
Commander of Chaos 12-03-05, 02:37 AM	If you wanted, the Pit Fiend could be short a wing. He lost it years ago in epic battle... That would limit his ability to escape, thus forcing the fight to end there.
Koji 12-03-05, 04:30 AM	Maybe this pit fiend thinks he's too cool to run away from a bunch of mortals, or he goes all-out and won't stop fighting until he's dead. Remember that a round is only 6 (or was it 10) seconds, so even a long fight is only a few minutes. He doesn't have time to sit there and think, "Gee, I only have ten HP left. I should fly 60 feet away to get out of this anti-magic field." His thoughts in a fight would probably be closer to "OW! DAMMIT! DIE!" Also if you're really going to use nonmagical fire be advised that 1d6 damage is no big deal, though it will severely limit visibility and concentration. But the fiend doesn't need to see, is immune to fire, and has no need to concentrate to use spell-like abilities.
Cantankerous 12-03-05, 05:14 AM	His thoughts in a fight would probably be closer to "OW! DAMMIT! DIE!" Only if we ignore the 26 Intel and 26 Wisdom. ***Yeah, I'm a super genius that makes the greatest human mind look imbecilic and I'm possessed of an ancient wisdom greater than that of any man and I've fought and been victorious time after time over countless millenia because of it, but I'm also so stupidly arrogant that a bunch of mortal schmucks will be able to gull me right from the start.*** Give me a break. Maybe if the Int and Wisdom were 8's each, there might be a point to that, but when dealing with a highly perceptive being with common sense beyond the mortal ken, an ability to analyze data beyond the imagination of man, and countless years of experience, you're saying that he is so brain dead that when he's getting pounded he stays put? Only if he's been smoking the Pit Fiend version of crack for the last month and is still doing so when he's fighting. Isshia
Furious D 18 12-03-05, 07:02 AM	If you wanted, the Pit Fiend could be short a wing. He lost it years ago in epic battle... That would limit his ability to escape, thus forcing the fight to end there. This is a great idea, but the PCs used to work for him and would have noticed it by now... plus, I think regeneration would cover this, or at least the wish spell the Fiend gets once a week. (The players are evil and were working with the Pit Fiend, but once he used them to his satisfaction, he took all their gear and left them for dead in a pit in the middle of nowhere. Here's a tip: Want to anger your players? Turn their boss/ally into the BBEG and take away all their precious magic items and weapons.) My favourite Pit Fiend tactic is to constantly fly up while fighting, and then make use of "hold monster" on the fool who flies after you.This is a great idea. I'll have to use it on the players. I don't usually do this, but I might play test the battle ahead of time. That way, I'll be better prepared to manage the Pit Fiend's many options and I'll have an idea of what the players might do. That might reflect his incredible Int and Wis.
Sildatorak 12-03-05, 01:30 PM	My major problem with the battle is this: The Pit Fiend will want to fly away (or even jump off the tower) to get away from the dimensional anchor spell so that he can teleport away once he is injured enough. How can the PCs possibly stop him from getting away? I want the battle to end here. I don't want him to get away but I don't want him to stay and fight if it isn't what he would do when faced with certain death. With his natural flight, invisibility, greater teleport, fireball, a keen intellect, and a great desire to destroy these mortals I imagine that he would quite possibly fly away if injured, go invisible, teleport to a more advantageous position (still flying), and start chucking fireballs while aloft. Since he can summon fiends twice per day, he might also attempt to dispel the dimensional lock (since you talked about hitting the battlefield with it that is what I assumed you meant), summoning a cornugon to deal with the party and then unleashing a meteor swarm once the party starts fighting his horned ally.
Koji 12-03-05, 04:41 PM	Only if we ignore the 26 Intel and 26 Wisdom. ***Yeah, I'm a super genius that makes the greatest human mind look imbecilic and I'm possessed of an ancient wisdom greater than that of any man and I've fought and been victorious time after time over countless millenia because of it, but I'm also so stupidly arrogant that a bunch of mortal schmucks will be able to gull me right from the start.*** Give me a break. Maybe if the Int and Wisdom were 8's each, there might be a point to that, but when dealing with a highly perceptive being with common sense beyond the mortal ken, an ability to analyze data beyond the imagination of man, and countless years of experience, you're saying that he is so brain dead that when he's getting pounded he stays put? Only if he's been smoking the Pit Fiend version of crack for the last month and is still doing so when he's fighting. Isshia You've never been in a fight, I guess. Anyway, he may be a supergenius, but apparently he and his whole species can't get past the idea of a neverending pointless genocidal war against demons who vary only slightly in their philosophy. He has 26 INT but he never realized that the universe would be a better place if he and his kind worked for good instead of evil. He's a baatezu. A skilled tactician by nature, and like most pit fiends, quite well educated. He is not, however, above concepts like hatred and underestimating his enemies. Let's also consider the fact that the PCs have been a thorn in his side for most of the campaign. He didn't just meet them, he's been plotting against them for a long time, and is convinced he has them beat. Were this a first encounter, yeah, he might fight to gain a measure of understanding and then beat it out of there, but this is a final showdown. When you die in a fight, you don't see it coming a million miles away. One minute you're fine, and the next minute there's a sword in your neck.
Bane 12-03-05, 07:19 PM	I would say that the PC's are pretty much hosed. If they really wanted him to not leave, Dimesional Anchor/Lock is good, especially if you keep him from leaving physically as well (Forcecage stands out in my mind.) Then shoot him with blessed silver crossbow bolts, as they don't confer negative levels to evil people who use them. Anyone who hits him in melee with a holy sword deserves a full attack, unless there are still spellcasting foes around. People will die in this battle, so don't shy from it.
janusthinker 12-05-05, 12:11 PM	You've never been in a fight, I guess. Anyway, he may be a supergenius, but apparently he and his whole species can't get past the idea of a neverending pointless genocidal war against demons who vary only slightly in their philosophy. He has 26 INT but he never realized that the universe would be a better place if he and his kind worked for good instead of evil. He's a baatezu. A skilled tactician by nature, and like most pit fiends, quite well educated. He is not, however, above concepts like hatred and underestimating his enemies. Let's also consider the fact that the PCs have been a thorn in his side for most of the campaign. He didn't just meet them, he's been plotting against them for a long time, and is convinced he has them beat. Were this a first encounter, yeah, he might fight to gain a measure of understanding and then beat it out of there, but this is a final showdown. When you die in a fight, you don't see it coming a million miles away. One minute you're fine, and the next minute there's a sword in your neck. :banghead: "You've never been in a fight, I guess." And obviously you've never been a nigh-immortal being of power that can level cities, gifted with centuries or millennia of experience and intelligence and intuition beyond that which any human being in real life has ever possessed. And certainly, possessing that level of intelligence and intuition means that you'd recognize a "final showdown" as a final showdown, and realize that fleeing in the face of certain death in such a circumstance is pointless, because then, obviously, it wouldn't be a final showdown. :banghead: And why, why, why, why, WHY do people not understand how D&D alignment works? Astounding intelligence and astounding wisdom do NOT reveal to you that the universe would be a better place if you were good instead of evil. They reveal to you in greater depth than your lessers can understand that you are right. Period. If you are a baatezu, the universe would be a better place if only the rest of the universe was organized according to Lawful Evil principles. If you are a tanar'ri, the universe would be a better place if only the rest of the universe was disorganized according to Chaotic Evil principles. Every alignment really is equally valid in the D&D universe. Intelligence and wisdom only give you a deeper appreciation of these truths.
Sildatorak 12-05-05, 12:41 PM	Anyway, he may be a supergenius, but apparently he and his whole species can't get past the idea of a neverending pointless genocidal war against demons who vary only slightly in their philosophy. Baatezu philosophy differs from the tanar'ri's as much as it differs from the archons'. He is not, however, above concepts like hatred and underestimating his enemies. You are right that a pit fiend is not above hatred, but he will probably express his hatred in some way that is more productive than throwing his life away against his enemies. Let's also consider the fact that the PCs have been a thorn in his side for most of the campaign. He didn't just meet them, he's been plotting against them for a long time, and is convinced he has them beat. Considering that "most of the campaign" is likely less than 1% of his lifetime, I doubt the fiend would consider it a long time. When you die in a fight, you don't see it coming a million miles away. One minute you're fine, and the next minute there's a sword in your neck. A sword in your neck is a lucky crit that came when you thought you could stick it out for one more round. That will happen. If you want to portray a 26 int/wis fiend being reckless regarding tactics, he will stay in melee even if he has less than 50% hp. Even a reckless pit fiend shouldn't stick around within range of great axes when reduced to 50 hp. That doesn't mean that the fiend should completely flee the battle ground, but he should change tactics (teleport/invis/fly/fireball barage is usually good, especially when readying action to fireball the wizard as he casts spells).
Lincoln Hills 12-05-05, 03:22 PM	One other thing, F.D.18 - Don't forget that baatezu are absolutely immune to poison and fire. Maybe that flaming oil you mentioned can be switched over to some terrible alchemical sludge which - in addition to burning like lamp oil - emits toxic fumes. An extra Fortitude save each round for every PC on the battlefield. (If a caster sets up wind wall, filter or uses gust of wind to gain a little, heh, breathing room... well, that's one more spell that doesn't end up aimed at the fiend, so hooray.)
Cantankerous 12-05-05, 03:34 PM	Koji, I've been in more knock down drag out fights than you likely have years of life. In my wastrel youth I was one of those fight a week morons who got off on it. Add to that a decade of boxing and four years of wrestling and better than two decades spread over three different Eastern martial arts and finally three years in the USMC. One of the first things that my embarassingly tiny (by comparison to what any Pit Fiend is going to have) experience in fighting taught me was to NEVER underestimate an opponent. Especially in boxing, as soon as the bell sounded, there was none of the feeling out non-sense. It didn't matter if I knew I had the guy I was fighting so outclassed I could have layed on the ropes for two and half rounds and took him in the final half round without stress, as soon as the bell sounded, I demolished the person as fast I could manage it. Because when you don't, when you play the stud, you get your legs sawed off. It happens so often that it should be it's own corralary to Murphy's Law. Period and end... ONLY amateurs, and idiots, play with any opponent. And Pit Fiends are neither. Isshia
Koji 12-05-05, 03:39 PM	A sword in your neck is a lucky crit that came when you thought you could stick it out for one more round. That will happen. If you want to portray a 26 int/wis fiend being reckless regarding tactics, he will stay in melee even if he has less than 50% hp. Even a reckless pit fiend shouldn't stick around within range of great axes when reduced to 50 hp. That doesn't mean that the fiend should completely flee the battle ground, but he should change tactics (teleport/invis/fly/fireball barage is usually good, especially when readying action to fireball the wizard as he casts spells). If we could see our death coming, nobody would ever die. Remember, in a fight it's not, "The paladin lands six successive strokes while you stand still and watch. The wizard waits until he's done and unleashes a magic missile. The devil looks at it and considers resisting, but decides he can lose 30 or so hit points because he knows exactly how much it's going to hurt him." It's, "There's a sudden commotion and the devil is dead somehow." However, if you're absolutely stuck on playing a meta-gaming devil, just make a situation that forces him into a fight to the death--he could be serving under some greater power who considers the loss of this high tower and the surrounding area to be unacceptable and will kill the fiend if he retreats. That doesn't work? The evil players make a pact with some darker force to give the soul of the loser over in exchange for a holding spell that keeps him on the tower. How about an artifact? An incredibly powerful geas spell? Something at stake that the devil cannot afford to lose? Maybe his minions are looking on, having been routed by the PCs. Should the fiend retreat, they'll find him and overthrow him. Perhaps a rival fiend has been after him and he simply can't afford to have a war on two fronts and will stop at nothing to kill the PCs. Maybe he's opening some ancient gate to the prime and defending it is more important to him than his life. Maybe the PCs killed someone or destroyed something he cared about and he hates them and will stop at nothing. Maybe he considers retreat to be too cowardly--he's lawful, so maybe he's got some twisted honor system. Maybe the PCs can fly and are easily able to chase him down. Maybe they get an artifact called the Anchor Arrow which prevents flight. Maybe he'll just die in the fight and the PCs won't question it. This is too easy.
Sildatorak 12-05-05, 03:59 PM	If we could see our death coming, nobody would ever die. Remember, in a fight it's not, "The paladin lands six successive strokes while you stand still and watch. The wizard waits until he's done and unleashes a magic missile. The devil looks at it and considers resisting, but decides he can lose 30 or so hit points because he knows exactly how much it's going to hurt him." It's, "There's a sudden commotion and the devil is dead somehow." Bull:censored:. Part of the basic premise of D&D is that hit points are going to be tracked and that decisions will be made based on their status. I'll agree that it isn'tThe paladin lands six successive strokes while you stand still and watch. The wizard waits until he's done and unleashes a magic missile. The devil looks at it and considers resisting, but decides he can lose 30 or so hit points because he knows exactly how much it's going to hurt him. It is more along the lines of "During a furious few seconds of scrapping, the paladin manages to draw blood a number of times and the wizard manages to blast the fiend despite its resistance to arcane energies. The fiend, making a quick decision, realizes that it can endure long enough to strike back at the paladin without taking too big a risk." It does stretch the bonds of believability to say that every creature knows exactly how much damage it takes to put it down. It stretches believability even more to say that creatures have no idea of how much it takes. My fighting experience is pretty limited, but there is definitely a point where you decide "I'm not going to win this one and need to get the heck out." Sometimes you don't make the call soon enough and that is when you end up losing. People who only think "OW! DAMMIT! DIE!" in a fight set themselves up for failure. Accurate situational awareness is essential to survival in dangerous situations in general, and fighting is no exception.
tiercel 12-05-05, 10:04 PM	There is a glaring, horrible weakness that pit fiends have. They cannot, as written, see invisible creatures. (They have a chance to, by using Spot, but an improved invisible mage at considerable range will pose a real problem.) A smart pit fiend (say, one with Int 26) would use some of its treasure to rectify this somehow -- some kind of magical item or bauble. (Yes, he can summon a true seeing erinyes, but that seems like a kind of weak way to have to deal with the issue.) Additionally, PCs who fight a known devil who walks around apparently wreathed in flames are probably going to take the step of using resist energy: fire, which pretty much makes fireball (quickened or not) and meteor swarm a waste of time, unless you successfully dispel their protections first (and without greater arcane sight, it's going to be hard to tell whether you got it or not). Blasphemy doesn't help at all against known Evil PCs (though it could do a number on their Neutral, holy-weapon-wielding allies). Create undead is OK if you can bribe/threaten/talk the undead so created into helping out. (On the other hand, if you create too many, they may get it into their undead heads to turn on you, if you aren't magically controlling them. If the PCs include an Evil cleric, you don't want to be handing free allies to your enemies for the cost of a Rebuke action or two.) Prepared PCs are likely to come in with see invisibility and/or true sight up, which limits the usefulness of invisibility and illusions. Chances are that mass hold monster and power word stun are the pit fiend's best magical offense. By the way, there's nothing saying that you HAVE to use the feats listed for a standard pit fiend. This is your BBEG, after all, he could have different feats instead (modulo feats he has already demonstrated before your PCs)... unfortunately, he can't Quicken greater dispel magic with his caster level of 18. If you are feeling especially evil, change some skills too. Say, for instance, move skill points to give it maximum cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device (+18 modifier), or make UMD a class skill if you feel extra evil. Even at +18, it should be able to use wands and staves reliably and scrolls (particularly low level ones) for special circumstances. (This allows scrolls of see invisibility as a solution to the first problem mentioned above.) He might like to have access to an item of haste (boots or their equivalent, or even a lowly potion)... boosting his fly speed and his already-impressive full attack isn't bad at all. While you're at it, make sure he has at least some electricity resistance -- smart PCs who do their homework will know it's one of the better choices for hurting him with energy attacks. Between its own mass hold monster and power word stun attacks, and the stunning blows of a horned devil's chain, the pit fiend could do a lot to reduce its actions/round disadvantage... if it can fight just one or two PCs at a time, it should be able to defeat them piecemeal. If the pit fiend hasn't used its wish this year, don't forget about it. It can solve just about any dilemma faced by the fiend... once. A good item for a pit fiend to have is a rock on a loop around its neck/wrist/whatever that emanates deeper darkness, either as a permanent item or one that it coerces some follower capable of casting 3rd-level cleric spells to cast every few days (yes, check out that duration). It can see just fine through the shadowy area while getting concealment for free. (True seeing can see through it just fine, but a PC rogue is going to be pretty messed up -- unable to sneak attack a concealed foe -- unless he is truesighted too.) If it has undead/summoned devil/thralls, and they can harass the PCs for a few rounds while the pit fiend dispels the PCs, all the better. The PCs are likely to be buffed-up to the gills. (One likely precaution is heroes' feast, which not only gives temporary hit points but makes them annoyingly immune to poison and fear, which is just no fun for a pit fiend who wants to get in close.)
Bane 12-05-05, 10:23 PM	Having read the updated original post, I would say that there is no one that isn't better off grappled. Grapple them, let the Aura of Fear keep everyone else away, and bite them every turn. After 3 bites, let go, and grab the next one. If the first one dies before that, so much the better. Start with the cleric, you want the poison to stay there long enough for the second round of saving throws. No one has a more deadly attack during a grapple than you do. Maybe a Reaping Mauler, but probably no one else. Just make sure you have that Deeper Darkness up first so the rogue can't Sneak attack you while you're busy.
Jesper 12-05-05, 10:54 PM	off topic does anyone know what the ecl of a pit fiend is?