battle troll character [Archive] - Wizards Community

battle troll character [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
priest of blipdoolpoolp
02-26-07, 12:09 PM Best ways for NPCs to provide challenge to a battletroll (MM III) with a ring of acid resistance 30, without making it look like he's being picked on.

Obviously, acid pits everywhere are out of the question.

But spell wise, etc?
MagicMouth
02-26-07, 12:15 PM Seeing as the +6 LA likely has a big impact on his saves, I suggest using various spells and effects that require Saving Throws. Those forcing a Fortitude save is probably out of the question, but if they require Reflex or Will saves it might work.
Senevri
02-26-07, 12:25 PM Well... dropping 'em to -200 works... It really doesn't matter that much that they survive - the players should survive most of the time.
Drag0nUL
02-26-07, 12:28 PM I assume you mean war troll.:)
And you got quite a problem on your hands:that beast has DR, SR, regeneration and the player was smart enough to take care of his most significant vulnerability.
Doing enough damage to overcome both the DR and regeneration is hard, though something along the lines of an advanced Iron golem should do a pretty good job. Some of the stronger giants might also do the trick, but I assume the rest of the party would help the war troll too.
Your best bet against a war troll would be spells, since SR 20 isn't that hard to overcome at that level. If I weer you I would concentrate on spells that require will saves, since that will probably be his weakest save. Confusion, suggestion, dominate and similar spells are all viable options.
wonlee76
02-26-07, 03:15 PM Presuming this is a high level game (since that is probably the only time you will see a War troll with all of its abilities) magic is the best solution.

Forcecage: No save, No SR, trap the troll.

Cloud Kill: I don't believe trolls (I could be wrong about this) are immune to poisons so even 1d4 Con Damage, save for 1/2 would be helpful to whittle down his fortitude. (Works well with Forcecage)

Enervation: No save and direct reduction in ability to hit and some HP and saves.

Dominate Monster for the really high level spellcasters.

Dispel Magic on the ring once a caster recognizes that its there to protect the troll.

Just dish out other elemental damage until the troll falls unconscious. Sure, its not lethal damage but eventually the guy could fall unconscious. Unfortunately he will probably be the last man standing.

Bestow Curse: Just so many good effects in this simple spell.

Assay Resistance: Every spellcaster's best friend when dealing with creatures with SR. Don't see why an NPC spellcaster shouldn't have this spell ready.

Non-Magic solutions:
Lord Sunder and his Sunderlings to get rid of the trolls ring or at least his weapon (which makes more sense at least) to diminish his damage output.

Drowning him (good trap idea now that I'm thinking about it).

Presuming the troll is not immune to poisons: Poisons could work. Eventually he will critically fail a save.
GoriceXII
02-26-07, 03:19 PM My players once used the simple trick of clay pots stuffed with burning tar.
Necrosis
02-26-07, 04:36 PM I was jsut hinking for real nastineess-give the troll the diehard feat :)-while this seems jsut worng since the trolls never ever go down it does seem legal-just higly abusable!!

To take it out-huge damage so he doesn't wake up,

Area control to stratigically control the battle feild so wall spells or force cage etc

Illusiosn and mind effecting

spells that slow him down

Of these the wall spells seem a good one

drownign is also an option

P.S. if you really want to be nasty-have the troll glameroured so he aphears to be taken acid damage when he is not :).
1CentSage
02-26-07, 05:59 PM The DR of the Troll is only 5/adamant, which is easy to overcome. Regeneration is also not that relevant. Considering that the troll will get hit several times a round even by one NPC of comparable level his regeneration translates into something like DR 2/-. No problem. He is an ECL 18 character meaning that any spellcasters of comparable level will have lvl 9 spells with save DCs of 27+. Depending on his other equipment a few will save based spells will take him out. A wildshaped druid or a shapechanged wizard will beat him up in melee. Actually his most dangerous ability is dazing blow which makes using spells more favorable than melee. A flying opponent with a ranged weapon will also do (depending on the trolls equipment). Note that once the troll is unconscious he is practically dead since you can still kill him with a coup de grace and his Fort save is nowhere good enough to beat DC 10+damage of an auto crit by a lvl ~18 someone even without using things like Power attack or sneak attack.
Even with well chosen equipment he will stand no chance against anything but another standard melee character of equal ECL and even then it is probably only because of dazing blow and the opponent having only NPC equipment. If your NPC group is considerably lower in level things might be different, but even then the veratility of spellcaters will take him down if used intelligently
Kradlo
02-26-07, 06:03 PM Has your player been wandering around the Character Optimization Board? I've seen a half-black dragon troll cleric of Ilmater (yes, that bad). Not a roleplaying bone in the player's body, but he knew the smell of fine cheese and was invariably drawn to it.

Spheres of Annihilation do wonders, especially when put into the mouth of a demon face as a "portal." Tomb of Horrors, anyone?

:D
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
02-26-07, 06:04 PM The DR of the Troll is only 5/adamant, which is easy to overcome. Regeneration is also not that relevant. Considering that the troll will get hit several times a round even by one NPC of comparable level his regeneration translates into something like DR 2/-. No problem. He is an ECL 18 character meaning that any spellcasters of comparable level will have lvl 9 spells with save DCs of 27+. Depending on his other equipment a few will save based spells will take him out. A wildshaped druid or a shapechanged wizard will beat him up in melee. Actually his most dangerous ability is dazing blow which makes using spells more favorable than melee. A flying opponent with a ranged weapon will also do (depending on the trolls equipment). Note that once the troll is unconscious he is practically dead since you can still kill him with a coup de grace and his Fort save is nowhere good enough to beat DC 10+damage of an auto crit by a lvl ~18 someone even without using things like Power attack or sneak attack.
Even with well chosen equipment he will stand no chance against anything but another standard melee character of equal ECL and even then it is probably only because of dazing blow and the opponent having only NPC equipment. If your NPC group is considerably lower in level things might be different, but even then the veratility of spellcaters will take him down if used intelligently

You can only CDG creatures with regeneration with something that deals lethal damage. So no CDG for you.
1CentSage
02-26-07, 06:21 PM You can only CDG creatures with regeneration with something that deals lethal damage. So no CDG for you.

Yep, you are right :weep: . So just strangle him before he wakes up from minus whatever. Suffocation still works I guess ...
priest of blipdoolpoolp
02-27-07, 11:17 AM now he added a level of undead.
runestar
02-27-07, 11:27 AM The voidmind template works quite well in tandem with the wartroll, although it has a combined ECL of 21...:(
now he added a level of undead.
Note that undead lose regeneration, since they have no con score.
Your player is simply too greedy - he has just signed his own death warrant.
chitzk0i
02-27-07, 01:15 PM Whaaaat?

You let someone a) play a war troll and b) "add a level of undead"? Never mind--I don't want to know.
priest of blipdoolpoolp
02-27-07, 03:14 PM We haven't started yet.

I'm trying to sort through what he's doing.

I'm starting to think that anything players get their hands on outside of the core books, makes for a ridiculous D&D game.
lint trap
02-27-07, 03:32 PM now he added a level of undead.

I'm not sure about this Undead class he just took a level in, but if he is undead, he has just shot himself in the foot. Undead creatures can't have regeneration.
1CentSage
02-27-07, 04:37 PM I'm not sure about this Undead class he just took a level in, but if he is undead, he has just shot himself in the foot. Undead creatures can't have regeneration.

AND on top of that gave up 60-84 hp (depending if his HD were converted to d12 or not) before the battle even started. Oh and he should now carefully avoid disintegrate... .
wonlee76
02-27-07, 04:58 PM If he became undead he just gave you a huge gift. No Con Score (and lost of HP as a result) and no more regeneration to worry about for undead immunities... He definitely got the short end of the stick on that deal.
priest of blipdoolpoolp
02-27-07, 06:06 PM The game hasn't started yet.
Drag0nUL
02-27-07, 06:54 PM We haven't started yet.

I'm trying to sort through what he's doing.

I'm starting to think that anything players get their hands on outside of the core books, makes for a ridiculous D&D game.

I would have to disagree with you here. In my own experience very few races are actually worth their ECL. I have very rarely seen a 'monster' character that couldn't be outperformed by 'normal'(LA 0 race) character in most of the circumstances. However, playing weird races adds quite a lot to the flavor of the game.
wonlee76
02-27-07, 08:33 PM He may mean "ridiculous" in the sense of the rules get more complicated when you start tossing in monsters as races with HD and +LA and things of that nature.

Personally, I think monster races are just a dumb concept. Too many RP restrictions for the most part and the ECL tends to be too high to be really effective with a few small exceptions (centaurs and minotaurs make surprisingly good fighter type PCs for their ECL).
Senevri
02-28-07, 12:38 AM The spirit of optimization is weak with this one. As has been said, Undead->Regeneration becomes just plain Fast Healing.
As for Wartroll --- overpowered for it's HD, so it might not be quite as horrible as it's LA seems to say. Low HP for it's level means the player will be spending quite a bit of time regenerating.

Also, considering tolls are considered ravenous man-eaters, even the slightly more lawful War Trolls are probably "shoot on sight" in most places. While the lack of fire immunity might confuse some, I think it won't take long 'til rumors of an armored troll immune to fire start going around, and Acid damage is only as far away as the closest Alchemist.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
priest of blipdoolpoolp 02-26-07, 12:09 PM	Best ways for NPCs to provide challenge to a battletroll (MM III) with a ring of acid resistance 30, without making it look like he's being picked on. Obviously, acid pits everywhere are out of the question. But spell wise, etc?
MagicMouth 02-26-07, 12:15 PM	Seeing as the +6 LA likely has a big impact on his saves, I suggest using various spells and effects that require Saving Throws. Those forcing a Fortitude save is probably out of the question, but if they require Reflex or Will saves it might work.
Senevri 02-26-07, 12:25 PM	Well... dropping 'em to -200 works... It really doesn't matter that much that they survive - the players should survive most of the time.
Drag0nUL 02-26-07, 12:28 PM	I assume you mean war troll.:) And you got quite a problem on your hands:that beast has DR, SR, regeneration and the player was smart enough to take care of his most significant vulnerability. Doing enough damage to overcome both the DR and regeneration is hard, though something along the lines of an advanced Iron golem should do a pretty good job. Some of the stronger giants might also do the trick, but I assume the rest of the party would help the war troll too. Your best bet against a war troll would be spells, since SR 20 isn't that hard to overcome at that level. If I weer you I would concentrate on spells that require will saves, since that will probably be his weakest save. Confusion, suggestion, dominate and similar spells are all viable options.
wonlee76 02-26-07, 03:15 PM	Presuming this is a high level game (since that is probably the only time you will see a War troll with all of its abilities) magic is the best solution. Forcecage: No save, No SR, trap the troll. Cloud Kill: I don't believe trolls (I could be wrong about this) are immune to poisons so even 1d4 Con Damage, save for 1/2 would be helpful to whittle down his fortitude. (Works well with Forcecage) Enervation: No save and direct reduction in ability to hit and some HP and saves. Dominate Monster for the really high level spellcasters. Dispel Magic on the ring once a caster recognizes that its there to protect the troll. Just dish out other elemental damage until the troll falls unconscious. Sure, its not lethal damage but eventually the guy could fall unconscious. Unfortunately he will probably be the last man standing. Bestow Curse: Just so many good effects in this simple spell. Assay Resistance: Every spellcaster's best friend when dealing with creatures with SR. Don't see why an NPC spellcaster shouldn't have this spell ready. Non-Magic solutions: Lord Sunder and his Sunderlings to get rid of the trolls ring or at least his weapon (which makes more sense at least) to diminish his damage output. Drowning him (good trap idea now that I'm thinking about it). Presuming the troll is not immune to poisons: Poisons could work. Eventually he will critically fail a save.
GoriceXII 02-26-07, 03:19 PM	My players once used the simple trick of clay pots stuffed with burning tar.
Necrosis 02-26-07, 04:36 PM	I was jsut hinking for real nastineess-give the troll the diehard feat :)-while this seems jsut worng since the trolls never ever go down it does seem legal-just higly abusable!! To take it out-huge damage so he doesn't wake up, Area control to stratigically control the battle feild so wall spells or force cage etc Illusiosn and mind effecting spells that slow him down Of these the wall spells seem a good one drownign is also an option P.S. if you really want to be nasty-have the troll glameroured so he aphears to be taken acid damage when he is not :).
1CentSage 02-26-07, 05:59 PM	The DR of the Troll is only 5/adamant, which is easy to overcome. Regeneration is also not that relevant. Considering that the troll will get hit several times a round even by one NPC of comparable level his regeneration translates into something like DR 2/-. No problem. He is an ECL 18 character meaning that any spellcasters of comparable level will have lvl 9 spells with save DCs of 27+. Depending on his other equipment a few will save based spells will take him out. A wildshaped druid or a shapechanged wizard will beat him up in melee. Actually his most dangerous ability is dazing blow which makes using spells more favorable than melee. A flying opponent with a ranged weapon will also do (depending on the trolls equipment). Note that once the troll is unconscious he is practically dead since you can still kill him with a coup de grace and his Fort save is nowhere good enough to beat DC 10+damage of an auto crit by a lvl ~18 someone even without using things like Power attack or sneak attack. Even with well chosen equipment he will stand no chance against anything but another standard melee character of equal ECL and even then it is probably only because of dazing blow and the opponent having only NPC equipment. If your NPC group is considerably lower in level things might be different, but even then the veratility of spellcaters will take him down if used intelligently
Kradlo 02-26-07, 06:03 PM	Has your player been wandering around the Character Optimization Board? I've seen a half-black dragon troll cleric of Ilmater (yes, that bad). Not a roleplaying bone in the player's body, but he knew the smell of fine cheese and was invariably drawn to it. Spheres of Annihilation do wonders, especially when put into the mouth of a demon face as a "portal." Tomb of Horrors, anyone? :D
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-26-07, 06:04 PM	The DR of the Troll is only 5/adamant, which is easy to overcome. Regeneration is also not that relevant. Considering that the troll will get hit several times a round even by one NPC of comparable level his regeneration translates into something like DR 2/-. No problem. He is an ECL 18 character meaning that any spellcasters of comparable level will have lvl 9 spells with save DCs of 27+. Depending on his other equipment a few will save based spells will take him out. A wildshaped druid or a shapechanged wizard will beat him up in melee. Actually his most dangerous ability is dazing blow which makes using spells more favorable than melee. A flying opponent with a ranged weapon will also do (depending on the trolls equipment). Note that once the troll is unconscious he is practically dead since you can still kill him with a coup de grace and his Fort save is nowhere good enough to beat DC 10+damage of an auto crit by a lvl ~18 someone even without using things like Power attack or sneak attack. Even with well chosen equipment he will stand no chance against anything but another standard melee character of equal ECL and even then it is probably only because of dazing blow and the opponent having only NPC equipment. If your NPC group is considerably lower in level things might be different, but even then the veratility of spellcaters will take him down if used intelligently You can only CDG creatures with regeneration with something that deals lethal damage. So no CDG for you.
1CentSage 02-26-07, 06:21 PM	You can only CDG creatures with regeneration with something that deals lethal damage. So no CDG for you. Yep, you are right :weep: . So just strangle him before he wakes up from minus whatever. Suffocation still works I guess ...
priest of blipdoolpoolp 02-27-07, 11:17 AM	now he added a level of undead.
runestar 02-27-07, 11:27 AM	The voidmind template works quite well in tandem with the wartroll, although it has a combined ECL of 21...:( now he added a level of undead. Note that undead lose regeneration, since they have no con score. Your player is simply too greedy - he has just signed his own death warrant.
chitzk0i 02-27-07, 01:15 PM	Whaaaat? You let someone a) play a war troll and b) "add a level of undead"? Never mind--I don't want to know.
priest of blipdoolpoolp 02-27-07, 03:14 PM	We haven't started yet. I'm trying to sort through what he's doing. I'm starting to think that anything players get their hands on outside of the core books, makes for a ridiculous D&D game.
lint trap 02-27-07, 03:32 PM	now he added a level of undead. I'm not sure about this Undead class he just took a level in, but if he is undead, he has just shot himself in the foot. Undead creatures can't have regeneration.
1CentSage 02-27-07, 04:37 PM	I'm not sure about this Undead class he just took a level in, but if he is undead, he has just shot himself in the foot. Undead creatures can't have regeneration. AND on top of that gave up 60-84 hp (depending if his HD were converted to d12 or not) before the battle even started. Oh and he should now carefully avoid disintegrate... .
wonlee76 02-27-07, 04:58 PM	If he became undead he just gave you a huge gift. No Con Score (and lost of HP as a result) and no more regeneration to worry about for undead immunities... He definitely got the short end of the stick on that deal.
priest of blipdoolpoolp 02-27-07, 06:06 PM	The game hasn't started yet.
Drag0nUL 02-27-07, 06:54 PM	We haven't started yet. I'm trying to sort through what he's doing. I'm starting to think that anything players get their hands on outside of the core books, makes for a ridiculous D&D game. I would have to disagree with you here. In my own experience very few races are actually worth their ECL. I have very rarely seen a 'monster' character that couldn't be outperformed by 'normal'(LA 0 race) character in most of the circumstances. However, playing weird races adds quite a lot to the flavor of the game.
wonlee76 02-27-07, 08:33 PM	He may mean "ridiculous" in the sense of the rules get more complicated when you start tossing in monsters as races with HD and +LA and things of that nature. Personally, I think monster races are just a dumb concept. Too many RP restrictions for the most part and the ECL tends to be too high to be really effective with a few small exceptions (centaurs and minotaurs make surprisingly good fighter type PCs for their ECL).
Senevri 02-28-07, 12:38 AM	The spirit of optimization is weak with this one. As has been said, Undead->Regeneration becomes just plain Fast Healing. As for Wartroll --- overpowered for it's HD, so it might not be quite as horrible as it's LA seems to say. Low HP for it's level means the player will be spending quite a bit of time regenerating. Also, considering tolls are considered ravenous man-eaters, even the slightly more lawful War Trolls are probably "shoot on sight" in most places. While the lack of fire immunity might confuse some, I think it won't take long 'til rumors of an armored troll immune to fire start going around, and Acid damage is only as far away as the closest Alchemist.