Battle with a Skeletal mob : Grey Area overkill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle with a Skeletal mob : Grey Area overkill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fend
11-05-07, 09:07 AM Speaks for itself really - but here was the situation..

The party was about to make an aireal charge into a mob of skeletal warriors protecting a ruined tower on a hill side. The party was 10th level, so the mob was deemed a somewhat easy encounter - but i threw it in for fun (as 50 individual skeletons would have been mind-numbingly irritating to run)

First issue came when the party cleric strafed over the mass of undead beings and made a turn undead check.

handeling undead mobs isnt mentioned in the book (from what i know).. so i ruled that it would have the same effect as a spell that targets individuals among the mob , thus he turned undead , several skeletons exploded along his flight path and the mob suffered 2 negative levels.

The monk jumped off the back of the clerics pegasus and dived into the fray - kicking left and right. but very quickly found himself grappled and pinned, so the Shadowbane inquisitor brought his Griffon down in amidst the frey and dropped off the paladin of freedom at the same time.

As they took swarm damage, the Inquisitor asked - Can i still make a ride check to take the damage for my mount? Problem was there was no attack roll - yet mobs still have all the attack roll information in theyre block. I ruled he couldnt as there were too many assailants. But now that i think back over it - Could the mob roll an attack roll for him to make a ride check over? Personally now that i think about it, it seems like a cool idea. Regardless, realising his mount was in danger the inquisitor dismounts and tells his mount to circle the battle from above while him and the Paladin of Freedom hack a parth towards the pinned monk.

Regardless, as the inquisitor waded into the frey Another question suddenly came up as he swung his holy greatsword. Does he get to make a Cleave??

It seems perfectly reasonable. But at the same time its a rule that just isnt covered. And probably with good reason - as Greatcleave would more than certainly become a 1 round Swarm killer on a high level barbarian, greatly reducing the mobs threat. I Ruled that it wasnt alowed, as the damage he dealt in total represented him dispatching numerous undead at a time anyway.

Carrying on. The fight continued as the Fey'ri sorcerer, and Human nightmare spinner took up position above the massed combat bellow and began to unleash magic missiles. Now there are only 5 missiles... you would assume he could only hit 5 Targets. I opted to rule that it would just deal damage the same as the melee'rs were doing. Then the Fey'ri threw an Icelance.

This is an obviously individual effecting spell - but is infanantly more damaging than the 5 magic missiles. I ruled it applied as a targeted effect and thus the mob took another -2 levels.

Now, can the mob Grapple more than 1 person within its spaces at once? Or would it seem more apropriate that only enough individuals can commit to swarming one person at a given time. I Deemed that the Latter was much more fair - thus only the monk was being swarm ganked while the others just took swarm damage for being amongst it. Was this correct?

Things began to come to a close several rounds later when with a total of -10 Levels and 8 hit points remaining the monk was still pinned and suffering 5d6 damage. He however was only on 5 hit points by now and it was only the begining of the mission.

now i would not consider myself a merciless Dm. But neither would i consider myself an overly merciful one. I Rolled the damage and looked upon it with a dismayed grimace knowing the Monk was about to die. But then i thought about the situation. over a gargantuan threat range, how many skeletons would really be left to deal all that damage. I Reasoned with the group, that considering they were almost diminished as it was, perhaps the negative levels should be applied to the total damage. It seemed like a fair idea, thus he was only rendered incapacited (15 damage rolled - 10 leaving him on 0)

All in all by the end of it they finally broke up the mob pinning down the monk and dispatched the remaining shambling dead with ease. But still i was left thinking. There are likely a myriad of other - have - to - be - adhoced - on the spot, situations that may arise while battling a Mob.

Looking over this in Hindsite, what decisions would you have made?

thanks all,
Fend. :cool:
Sinfire Titan
11-05-07, 09:56 AM First issue came when the party cleric strafed over the mass of undead beings and made a turn undead check.

handeling undead mobs isnt mentioned in the book (from what i know).. so i ruled that it would have the same effect as a spell that targets individuals among the mob , thus he turned undead , several skeletons exploded along his flight path and the mob suffered 2 negative levels.

The rules for dealing with undead swarms are in the Libris Mortis. The swarmshifter template and the undead swarm presented in there treat the entire swarm as a single creature for the purpose of turn checks.
Finarin Panjoro
11-05-07, 03:11 PM But I believe the undead swarm is considered vulnerable to turning that is they are considered to be one creature of half the swarm's hit dice. So it is possible for a high level cleric to turn an entire mob.

I use mobs a lot at higher levels because I love the mechanic and the idea of the heroes standing against hordes of enemies. Here's a house rule I use that helps with things.

The following feats grant you +1d6 extra damage whenever you attack a mob (your regular iterative attacks, AoOs, attacks from TWF, etc): cleave, great cleave, combat reflexes, and whirlwind attack (+2d6). This is becuase those feats would normally be extremely useful against hordes of weak foes, but the mob mechanic effectively neutralizes them. So a barbarian with cleave and great cleave does an extra 2d6 on every attack he makes against a mob.

I think you ruled most things correctly.
-Without knowning the rules I would have had the cleric's turn attempt deliver negative levels as you did, but I would have awarded 1 negative level for each die that he turned. Remember that the mob takes 5 hit points of damage for each negative level as well as the penalties to saves, etc.
-I would not have allowed the use of mounted combat to negate a mob attack.
-The inquisitor would have recieved bonus damage on his dice for having the cleave feat.
-I believe mob can only start one grapple in a round, but that they can grapple more than one person at a time (that is they can start grappling a new person each round, but may continue grappling those they already have). I'll have to double check this later. Remember that the mob provokes an Attack of Opportunity for starting a grapple and if the AoO does any damage to the mob then the grapple attempt automatically fails. With their low AC this makes a big difference.
-I would not have applied the negative level penalty to the damage taken by the monk. I believe when a mob is disbanded (brought to 0 hp) 25% of them are still considered active. So at least 12 undead were still mobbing the monk at the end there. I'll try to double check this as well.

All in all I think you handled everything very well and very reasonably, especially since they were coming up on the fly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fend 11-05-07, 09:07 AM	Speaks for itself really - but here was the situation.. The party was about to make an aireal charge into a mob of skeletal warriors protecting a ruined tower on a hill side. The party was 10th level, so the mob was deemed a somewhat easy encounter - but i threw it in for fun (as 50 individual skeletons would have been mind-numbingly irritating to run) First issue came when the party cleric strafed over the mass of undead beings and made a turn undead check. handeling undead mobs isnt mentioned in the book (from what i know).. so i ruled that it would have the same effect as a spell that targets individuals among the mob , thus he turned undead , several skeletons exploded along his flight path and the mob suffered 2 negative levels. The monk jumped off the back of the clerics pegasus and dived into the fray - kicking left and right. but very quickly found himself grappled and pinned, so the Shadowbane inquisitor brought his Griffon down in amidst the frey and dropped off the paladin of freedom at the same time. As they took swarm damage, the Inquisitor asked - Can i still make a ride check to take the damage for my mount? Problem was there was no attack roll - yet mobs still have all the attack roll information in theyre block. I ruled he couldnt as there were too many assailants. But now that i think back over it - Could the mob roll an attack roll for him to make a ride check over? Personally now that i think about it, it seems like a cool idea. Regardless, realising his mount was in danger the inquisitor dismounts and tells his mount to circle the battle from above while him and the Paladin of Freedom hack a parth towards the pinned monk. Regardless, as the inquisitor waded into the frey Another question suddenly came up as he swung his holy greatsword. Does he get to make a Cleave?? It seems perfectly reasonable. But at the same time its a rule that just isnt covered. And probably with good reason - as Greatcleave would more than certainly become a 1 round Swarm killer on a high level barbarian, greatly reducing the mobs threat. I Ruled that it wasnt alowed, as the damage he dealt in total represented him dispatching numerous undead at a time anyway. Carrying on. The fight continued as the Fey'ri sorcerer, and Human nightmare spinner took up position above the massed combat bellow and began to unleash magic missiles. Now there are only 5 missiles... you would assume he could only hit 5 Targets. I opted to rule that it would just deal damage the same as the melee'rs were doing. Then the Fey'ri threw an Icelance. This is an obviously individual effecting spell - but is infanantly more damaging than the 5 magic missiles. I ruled it applied as a targeted effect and thus the mob took another -2 levels. Now, can the mob Grapple more than 1 person within its spaces at once? Or would it seem more apropriate that only enough individuals can commit to swarming one person at a given time. I Deemed that the Latter was much more fair - thus only the monk was being swarm ganked while the others just took swarm damage for being amongst it. Was this correct? Things began to come to a close several rounds later when with a total of -10 Levels and 8 hit points remaining the monk was still pinned and suffering 5d6 damage. He however was only on 5 hit points by now and it was only the begining of the mission. now i would not consider myself a merciless Dm. But neither would i consider myself an overly merciful one. I Rolled the damage and looked upon it with a dismayed grimace knowing the Monk was about to die. But then i thought about the situation. over a gargantuan threat range, how many skeletons would really be left to deal all that damage. I Reasoned with the group, that considering they were almost diminished as it was, perhaps the negative levels should be applied to the total damage. It seemed like a fair idea, thus he was only rendered incapacited (15 damage rolled - 10 leaving him on 0) All in all by the end of it they finally broke up the mob pinning down the monk and dispatched the remaining shambling dead with ease. But still i was left thinking. There are likely a myriad of other - have - to - be - adhoced - on the spot, situations that may arise while battling a Mob. Looking over this in Hindsite, what decisions would you have made? thanks all, Fend. :cool:
Sinfire Titan 11-05-07, 09:56 AM	First issue came when the party cleric strafed over the mass of undead beings and made a turn undead check. handeling undead mobs isnt mentioned in the book (from what i know).. so i ruled that it would have the same effect as a spell that targets individuals among the mob , thus he turned undead , several skeletons exploded along his flight path and the mob suffered 2 negative levels. The rules for dealing with undead swarms are in the Libris Mortis. The swarmshifter template and the undead swarm presented in there treat the entire swarm as a single creature for the purpose of turn checks.
Finarin Panjoro 11-05-07, 03:11 PM	But I believe the undead swarm is considered vulnerable to turning that is they are considered to be one creature of half the swarm's hit dice. So it is possible for a high level cleric to turn an entire mob. I use mobs a lot at higher levels because I love the mechanic and the idea of the heroes standing against hordes of enemies. Here's a house rule I use that helps with things. The following feats grant you +1d6 extra damage whenever you attack a mob (your regular iterative attacks, AoOs, attacks from TWF, etc): cleave, great cleave, combat reflexes, and whirlwind attack (+2d6). This is becuase those feats would normally be extremely useful against hordes of weak foes, but the mob mechanic effectively neutralizes them. So a barbarian with cleave and great cleave does an extra 2d6 on every attack he makes against a mob. I think you ruled most things correctly. -Without knowning the rules I would have had the cleric's turn attempt deliver negative levels as you did, but I would have awarded 1 negative level for each die that he turned. Remember that the mob takes 5 hit points of damage for each negative level as well as the penalties to saves, etc. -I would not have allowed the use of mounted combat to negate a mob attack. -The inquisitor would have recieved bonus damage on his dice for having the cleave feat. -I believe mob can only start one grapple in a round, but that they can grapple more than one person at a time (that is they can start grappling a new person each round, but may continue grappling those they already have). I'll have to double check this later. Remember that the mob provokes an Attack of Opportunity for starting a grapple and if the AoO does any damage to the mob then the grapple attempt automatically fails. With their low AC this makes a big difference. -I would not have applied the negative level penalty to the damage taken by the monk. I believe when a mob is disbanded (brought to 0 hp) 25% of them are still considered active. So at least 12 undead were still mobbing the monk at the end there. I'll try to double check this as well. All in all I think you handled everything very well and very reasonably, especially since they were coming up on the fly.