Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quirriff 10-08-05, 10:31 AM	I intend to create an opening scenario for players in which they are participants in a much larger battle, any not everyone on their army are battle ready, many of them would be farmers, blacksmiths, shopkeepers, merchants, which are 1st level commoners which would normally only be proficient in one simple weapon, but some might be proficient in a few, but they would still be poor in combat. But they all wont be on the front lines, and it would not just be commonders, there would be a few Aristocrats, Experts and Adepts, and a Good ammount of Warriors (but the majority of the people would still be commoners). Since this is a battle, many of the NPCs with NPC classes will die (commoners with 1-4 Hp will often die instantly). Putting 1st level characters amounst the battle should prove interesting, because even a 1st level fighter would be an elite warrior, compared to the majority of the army. It should be a battle that players will only give through if they are inventive, or clever, or lucky, just to make things interesting. The question is, How should it do it?
ercpkr 10-08-05, 10:36 AM	Give clear objectives to the PCs, while they leave the level 1s to fight amongst themselves: (In no order) 1. Sabotage Enemy Siege engines 2. Kill enemy lieutenant/captain 3. Lead forces to swarm enemy tower/bunker 4. Clear the nearby mines of a neutral 3rd faction (i.e. goblins, trolls) so that your side can collect ore. 5. Destroy enemy battlefield forges 6. Sneak into enemy base and open the gate for your forces to enter 7. Capture enemy battle standard to lower their troops' morale. etc. etc.
DragonRg6 10-08-05, 10:45 AM	My recommended course of action is: Buy Heroes of Battle. If not, try to break up the battle a bit, and spread it out. Running too many NPCs and combats simultaneously can be murderous. Perhaps have a decided outcome if the players don't achieve much, a different one if they achieve a bit, and a different one if they achieve a great deal.
Quirriff 10-08-05, 10:46 AM	I was actually thinking the players should come up with thier own objectives. And they would also be 1st level, but a PC class instead of a NPC class I'm more concerned as to how the battle works and how I control it, I can't roll 100 d20s at the same time to determine who hits what.
ercpkr 10-08-05, 10:49 AM	I was actually thinking the players should come up with thier own objectives. And they would also be 1st level, but a PC class instead of a NPC class I'm more concerned as to how the battle works and how I control it, I can't roll 100 d20s at the same time to determine who hits what. You don't have to, just make it so that the opposing team is slowly gaining ground if your PCs aren't doing anything meaningful with their time, but if they are then their team will be able to win the battle.
Quirriff 10-08-05, 10:51 AM	My recommended course of action is: Buy Heroes of Battle. If not, try to break up the battle a bit, and spread it out. Running too many NPCs and combats simultaneously can be murderous. Perhaps have a decided outcome if the players don't achieve much, a different one if they achieve a bit, and a different one if they achieve a great deal. I was thinking that, I was thinking if the players don't do anything that effect the battle much. they'd loose, due to pre-determined events.
rbrt_Spade 10-08-05, 10:54 AM	i would use the strike-team idea from the dmg. it just makes things more fun and "part of the army" than just a foot soldier. send them to wipe out the leader of the bbeg. "a duel between champions"
Quirriff 10-08-05, 11:21 AM	Strike Teams? against BBEGs who are 6th level at least (all my BBEGs are at least 6th level). Perhaps you're thinking too modern, i'm thinking more like the siege of troy, most of the men weren't equipt weapons, they had to pick up whatever they could find, thus the idea of having commoners. Commoners would be cut down like tissue paper, not that they'd get up and close because they know they'd be cut down like tissue paper, they're not trained to fight in formation, and they'd all be proficient with different weapons, some with daggers, some with spears, some with clubs, some with slings, some with crossbows. PCs might be a member of a unit of regulars (Warriors), or might be mixed in with some of the commoner conscripts walking into their doom, and they could try to make the situation work for them. For example, Jimmy the Sorcerer is side by side Joe the farmer, but since jimmy was a sorcerer and not a wizard, he wasn't registered as a Mage he got brought in with the rest of the ordinary people, but since Jimmy is not an "Ordinary Person", he takes control of his unit when the previous leader Dork (1st level warrior) gets shot in the head by a crossbow bolt. Jimmy with his high charisma seems to inspire his fellows, as does the spells he casts.
Treetrip Danglefoot 10-08-05, 03:55 PM	1st level commoners may be commoners, but I'd take 5 1st level commoners against 1 1st level fighter any day. Pitchforks are essentially spears and have reach. Remember, all it really takes at level 1 is a natural 20 with a crossbow or shortbow and the PC dies. Especially Jimmy the Sorcerer, he won't have any more hp than the commoners. You've got to be really careful about it all. I remember in one instance a group of the four of us were going up against a couple orcs that were below our level in CR. But they had their great axes like any good orc should have, and with a single critical slew the previously unharmed cleric. It was a CR two levels below us, but he got hacked. So don't over-estimate their abilities just because they're PCs.
WCH 10-08-05, 04:06 PM	Buy DMG II, use the rules for mobs.
Quirriff 10-09-05, 12:00 AM	1st level commoners may be commoners, but I'd take 5 1st level commoners against 1 1st level fighter any day. Pitchforks are essentially spears and have reach. Remember, all it really takes at level 1 is a natural 20 with a crossbow or shortbow and the PC dies. Especially Jimmy the Sorcerer, he won't have any more hp than the commoners. You've got to be really careful about it all. I remember in one instance a group of the four of us were going up against a couple orcs that were below our level in CR. But they had their great axes like any good orc should have, and with a single critical slew the previously unharmed cleric. It was a CR two levels below us, but he got hacked. So don't over-estimate their abilities just because they're PCs. Of course not, the PCs still have to be careful, the fact they are "exceptional individuals" means they could influence the outcome of the battle, but not slay legions of people.
Centauri 10-09-05, 12:26 AM	Decide how the battle should go and have the bulk of it just be a moving backdrop. You don't have to roll for any of the big, running battles, just have it sort of flow around the PCs. The PCs can be involved in their own battles with a focus on them and a handful of soldiers from both sides. Maybe something from the battle at large will intrude every once in a while (e.g. an explosion, a ballista-bolt, etc.) but by-and-large the conflict will just be a lot of confusion going on around them. Remember that the commoners might not always have a choice of the weapons they're proficient with. Not knowing much about weapons, they might try to avail themselves of anything that looks big and sharp. The enemy might not know they're not proficient. For the parts of the battle the characters aren't currently involved in can I recommend something a bit novel? Don't worry about trying to explain every aspect of it with the rules. I haven't read Heroes of Battle, so maybe it covers this sort of thing, but the PHB rules aren't really for large scale fights. Allow yourself to step outside the rules and let things happen that the rules can't describe, like a troop of brave and frenzied commoners tackling a large warbeast, and bringing it down even as it rends them. Or a plucky farmboy who somehow survived the fireball that wiped out the rest of his comrades. Just some ideas of things that might happen in a chaotic, and heroic fantasy battle, but probably wouldn't according to the rules.
Kohdok 10-09-05, 12:56 AM	I remember a DM had a clever system. It was a hit-die system. It had a skeleton crew that was boarding a Ship that the PCs and the crew were on. He did it like this: The crew has 60 HD and init +1 The Skeleton Crew has 60 HD and init +0 The Crew hits on a 12 for 1d6 Hit Dice of damage to the Skeleton Crew. The Skeleton Crew hits on a 12 for 1d12 Hit Dice of damage to the crew, giving the Crew an obvious need for help from the PCs. There were some specific monsters, such as a Skeletal Ogre and a Jolly Roger (A 3rd party monster with a Tasha's Hideous Laughter Supernatural ability) for the PC's to fight. They can fight the above monsters, or help the crew. The above monsters are actually included in the 60 HD. I liked this system a LOT and intend to use it for my own games for battles like this!
LCD2YOU 10-09-05, 01:10 AM	why are they all just 1st level commoners? Even after a small bit of action 2 or 3 times a year, wolves, deer, elk, etc., they would be 2nd level 3 or 4 years down the road. I don't agree with having all of the commoners be 1st level, but that is just me. Depemding on where they live, they could be 5th or 6th level easily. Questions for you: 1: Where do they live? 2: How often do things get "exciting", like Orc raids, troubles with brigands, etc. 3: Is there a militia and how often do they need to be mobilized? 4: Do they have to work hard to get in food? If the answers are: 1: In a peaceful kingdom, in a small Hamlet in the interior. AND 2: Last time was 40 years ago. AND 3: Never. AND 4: No. THEN They are 1st and 2nd level commoners.
Quirriff 10-09-05, 01:24 AM	some of the commoners would be 2nd or 3rd level sure, but not most of them, maybe 25% of them. I'm thinking large scale army of whatever the GGs can muster.
LCD2YOU 10-09-05, 01:37 AM	In my game, the only 1st level commoners one will see are 16 to 19 years old. In a "typical" village, many have done some Militia time, 2 weeks in the summer, a weekend once a month. That would mean that a typical male villager, 30 years old and in pretty good shape, is around 6th level, 4th level commoner and 2nd level Warrior. That would be 1st level for 2 years, 2nd level for 2 years and on to 4th level. After that, for 5th and 6th level, it takes 3 years each. When they are "too old", then they start slowing way down and may never see 7th level. This villager will probably never get higher, unless the village is attacked and he is loathe to share his wife, daughters or money with the attackers.