Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HauptSin 09-09-06, 09:58 AM	So a co-worker was playing crappy music last night, and I was thinking of my upcoming campaign. More specifically, what I should have for a recurring BBEG to harass the party. Then I thought of how lame and depressingly bad the music playing was, and it clicked. My BBEG should be a terribly depressing Bard/Dirgesinger. He doesn't exist yet, but I've named him E'mo. But now that I'm home with my books, I've actually looked into it, and he's looking pretty damn weak. Any suggestions on what I can do to really ramp up his dangerous-ness?
CrippleMrOnion 09-09-06, 10:00 AM	I've used a bard as a BBEG once, as the leader of the Gnomish Anti-Defamation League. He led the GADL to start rioting in a captial city. He was surrounded, of course, by commoner gnomes, which the PCs really weren't supposed to kill. He had made himself invisible and disguised one of the gnomes as himself. He also had a bodyguard, another bard, though I don't remember the exact stats. What CR are you looking for for this encounter?
HauptSin 09-09-06, 10:08 AM	Really depends on when the party faces him... It's going to be a choose-your-quest sort of thing, so it's really up to them. Basically, anything above level 7 or so would be great. A good means of escape for him would also be great. The stranger/sillier the better, though. :p
Tisner44 09-09-06, 10:28 AM	It does really depend on his level. If he is high enough, give him the leadership feat. Then he will always have a small group with him to put up against the PC's as he makes his escape. Then he comes back a couple of months later with more minions. Also his cohort could be a Cleric/Wizard necromancer if you like working with undead.
Arco Versipellis 09-09-06, 10:29 AM	I am using the same class combination for a Halloween dungeon I am running. So far, my only iron principle is that since that he will have accompaniment. There are several intersting incorpreal undead with musical traits from the Libris Mortis, with their CRs being 4 and 7.
HauptSin 09-09-06, 10:59 AM	That just might work. He could have a 'band' of Spectral Lyrists and Crypt Chanters. Then just tack the 'Evolved' template on each as E'mo levels, to keep his cohorts up to par. Maybe eventually a Wheep cohort, even. Thanks for the tips. ^_^
Lazzmaniandevil 09-09-06, 11:42 AM	He could also have an undead cohort that progress with class levels, like a necropolitan for example. That way, his cohort could be both an undead (and be affected by the dirgesinger's song of bolstering) and a necromancer who could animate/summon more undeads. The problem with using a 'band' of Spectral Lyrists and Crypt Chanters is that a simple silence spell could "turn off" many attack options. A cohort that doesn't rely on sound would give the encounter more versatility. As for the good means of escape, the simplest solution is to give him at least 7 levels of bard and give him gaseous form, but you probably already thought about that.
Tisner44 09-09-06, 11:47 AM	That just might work. He could have a 'band' of Spectral Lyrists and Crypt Chanters. Then just tack the 'Evolved' template on each as E'mo levels, to keep his cohorts up to par. Maybe eventually a Wheep cohort, even. Thanks for the tips. ^_^ Keep in mind to have some combat people in his group for meat shields. Also the Undead Leadership feat is also a good idea:cool:
Geisterkrieger 09-09-06, 11:52 AM	Have you ever red the Karl Edward Wagner's Kane shortstories, they're awesome. now to the point, in one of the stories appeared an albino bard (can't remember the name and my bro has my book). it was some kind of a criminal fantasy story in a castle during a blizzard, anyways the bard was the evil guy, tall slender build and he was some kind of a werewolf ruling over other wolves. fact is this lad was even better than the standard werewolf, I don't know if know the 2e wolfwere, a white wolf that can shape to a human form and always appears as a human bard to kill his prey. maybe you should make him a wolfwere, because this bard rocks.
Limousine_Liberal 09-09-06, 12:05 PM	The point of having a bard as BBEG is not that he will kick their asses himself. He will use his charisma, music and magic to have others kick their asses...or even to have party members kick other party members asses. It's like making the BBEG a politician (which happens all the time in the movies), he uses his charisma and power to thwart the PCs indirectly and to turn the "system" against them. Even if the bard isn't a politician, be can use his superior Bluff skill to convince every local sheriff that the PCs are vile criminals that needs to be captured and killed, and use his superior Diplomacy skill to make that sheriff and the locals think he is the best thing since the invention of wands. He can convince the best, bravest and most good that the PCs are the enemies that need to be stopped, and unless the PCs have a similar "charisma bandit" in the party, good luck convincing your attackers otherwise. His spell selection will be things like Charm Person, Detect Thoughts, Glibness, Scrying, Modify Memory, Dominate Person and Listening Coin (Spell Compendium), and he'll make copious use of his Suggestion ability. That said, once the PCs have caught up to and overcome all those people defending him, fighting him won't be that great a challenge (Until he casts Dominate Person" on the more powerful party members...whose abilities he'll know based on his stellar Gather Information checks and his Listening Coins and all the Scrying he's done against them). He beats them by turning everyone against them, learning everything about them and using what he learns to cripple them in advance. He the villain whose dangerous because he is obscenely well prepared for everything the PCs can throw at him. Basically, he's Batman with mind control powers.
Whisper_Swiftblade 09-09-06, 12:11 PM	give him lots of misguided teens who complain alot (my parents don't understand, the zombies smell bad, I ran out of black eyeliner, my pencil needs sharpening, I need to go to the bath room, math is hard...) about their troubles most of all to the PCs, dispight the fact they don't have it that bad (that is in my experence the essence of emo). Also give your bard pants that are far to small and are mentioned often. Example; "bard" jumps down from the steps and nearlt rips his exesivly tight pants opon the landing.
boozerker 09-09-06, 02:52 PM	So a co-worker was playing crappy music last night, and I was thinking of my upcoming campaign. More specifically, what I should have for a recurring BBEG to harass the party. Then I thought of how lame and depressingly bad the music playing was, and it clicked... When they enter the bard's headquarters, hit play on a CD or tape of the worst, awful music you can find. Maybe even take clips of American Idol try-outs and overlap a bunch of the worst singers. Your group will want to find and deal with the BBEG real quick then (to make the music stop) :D
Meshakhad 09-09-06, 02:59 PM	How about a con-man bard?
DIESCUMDIE 09-09-06, 03:57 PM	I had a good encounter using a bard as a bbeg. She was a vampire cr 10 with magic items as a lvl 10 character. Much of that boosting her perform. The bard abilities are quiet strong to start with, and the vampire boosts the melee and surviveablity. Use the perform and disguise skills to hide the vampirehood if you can. Dont though make the mistake I did and let all your spells be defeated by protection from evil.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-09-06, 04:42 PM	I don't understand the tendency to try to make bards silly. This is a class that specializes in breaking the will of sapient beings and forcing them to do his bidding. Its screaming to be used as the Dreadlord of an evil empire and yet people still insist on making him as goofy as possible.
coppro 09-09-06, 05:49 PM	And at a high level, you're asking regular commoners to make a DC (at least 25, probably more) Will save just to avoid fascination. Then, he can implant a suggestion, which would have a DC of at least 25 as well. If suddenly everyone present decides to start a riot 10 minutes after the bard leaves, then that's going to be nasty. So bards just tend to be more indirect, but that doesn't mean they can be just as evil. And don't forget the presence of spells such as Mass Fox's Cunning on the spell list. That could be a doozy if he manages to get everyone present to accept the spell and gives a suggestion. If a group of people suddenly decide to rise against the government in a highly organized fashion... Also, Mirage Arcana could be used to lure people around with suggestions... all it takes is for you to know what that BBEG is doing. Make sure he has high Intelligence though, or else it will be utterly pointless.
Nived 09-09-06, 05:56 PM	As my sig says, every campaign should have a kilt wearing dirgesinger with Bagpipes of the Damned... they will teach your clerics to fear.... FEAR the undead. No turning for you! Another classic BBEG Bard move is to have a lot of minions in a well fortified stronghold... when the PCs try to get in.... well the massive pipe organ that runs through the entire complex starts to play (works best if you have The Phantom of the Opera cued up in your CD player) your PCs may well wet themselves.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-09-06, 06:28 PM	And at a high level, you're asking regular commoners to make a DC (at least 25, probably more) Will save just to avoid fascination. Just some numbers to back up the INSANE power of facinate: Human Bard 1 Ranks: 4 Cha 16: +3 Skill focus (perform): +3 MW instrument: +2 Total modifier: +12 Min: 13, Max: 32, Avg:23 ---------------------------- Human Bard 10 (Suggestion DC 20) Ranks: 13 Cha 20: +5 (Cha 16, +2 for 4th and 8th levels, +2 for cloak) Skill focus (perform): +3 MW instrument: +2 circlet of persuasion: +3 Total modifier: +26 Min: 27, Max:46, Avg:37 ----------------------------- If the bard's foes have minds, he will fascinate them if they're appropriate ECL against him. A 10th level character with a good will save: Base: +7 Wis 20: +5 Iron Will: +2 Total: +14 Min:16 Max:33 Avg:25 The bard fascinates this guy on average even if he natural 1's his perform check. He also has a 20% chance of suggestion implanting. And he can do this ten times a day for ten rounds a pop. Its better than hold person as long as combat hasn't began. Sure, it breaks at the first sign of agression, but that's why you employ Dex fighters with quickdraw and a high bluff, no?
mephistophelesatefaust 09-09-06, 06:55 PM	I am, strangely, reminded of Minister Foss, from the Anime/Manga series, Berserk. (highlight, please. I've no idea how to apply spoiler...brackers?) The man doesn't come across as charismatic or ambitious or the like, just stays in the background. However, he is a major foe for the protagonists, convincing many major figures, including Duke Julius (the king's brother), and the Queen, to regard them as foes, a threat to the natural order of things. On top of, that the man is a genius, never placing his own hand in a plot, until the end (which is what screws him over). Eh, my 2cp.
Roivas 09-09-06, 08:31 PM	Bards make great villians, but not so great alone in combat. I'm not saying you can't make a bard scary in melee, it's just not simple to do. The best way to make a hated NPC is to leave him out of the parties reach. Have him animate a few undead, or have someone else do it, and pul out a scroll of greater teleport and leave. Bards make a good face for larger villians too, they can bring masses of people under their sway without much trouble. I'd suggest giving the bard a city filled with good commoners and have the party try to fight off hundreds of innocent controlled people. The bard I use in my campain is the leader of about twenty crime organizations throughout the world, he also spends time promoting violent fighting tournaments where the fighters are captured and forced to fight each other. Of course he is the front man for a devil who has lived on the material plane for over 2000 years, but that's not important. I based the NPC off of Max Quadrapleen from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, so he seems like a silly, harmless bard to the world in general, but masks a malevolent and sinister form of evil. So yeah, bards rule as villians, but should stay far from the front line, in general.
X-Codes 09-09-06, 08:41 PM	I say update the old feat "Dark Speech" from BoVD to be a true counterpart to the BoED feat "Words of Creation". It has the same cost and pre-reqs (which probably won't matter since he should be a Lich or Vampire) and instead of doubling numeric effects it causes a morale penalty to nearby foes and gives a +2 bonus to the save DCs of bardic music abilities such as Suggestion. Combine with the Requiem feat and normal music he'll have already and suddenly it's going to be a dangerous fight no matter how the PC's cut it (unless they cut it with an Undead Slaying arrow =P).
Lord_Varos 09-09-06, 08:45 PM	I'd suggest giving the bard a city filled with good commoners and have the party try to fight off hundreds of innocent controlled people. Or, if you have a non-psychotic murderer party, don't. If your party is any kind of good, or even a neutral that you're not considering turning to evil, this is a great opportunity to destroy all hope of their players roleplaying that alignment. It's unfair to say, "u have 2 atack teh bard he has a milion inocent comoners. do u kill them?" That is one BBEG that my players could not defeat if they had no way to get to him other than through a mass of commoners. In my experience, bards are scariest when playing either huge instruments or instruments which were not invented by the simulated time period. Example: enormous, castle-covering pipe organs are scary, as are violin-playing bards in a fantasy setting.
Horatio Hornblower 09-09-06, 09:27 PM	Sure, you can have a silly bard BBEG and it would be fun. Especially the bad music. If you want something serious I got two words for you: Charismatic Dictator. A bard BBEG would make a great evil lord. Reread Vaal's post on the insane power of fascinate. I'm making a note to use this in my next campaign.
lears_fool 09-09-06, 09:37 PM	Charismatic Characters make great BBEGs My players' nightmares aren't filled with half-giant barbarians or fireball-throwing wizards. No, they're filled with insane and charming minstrels, devious telepaths who hop from one body to the next, and priestesses not with armies of the undead but with the ability to manipulate the masses and turn them against the party :) Often the best of the BBEGs aren't big, aren't bad, aren't terribly evil, and some aren't even guys :)
Limousine_Liberal 09-09-06, 09:38 PM	Or, if you have a non-psychotic murderer party, don't. If your party is any kind of good, or even a neutral that you're not considering turning to evil, this is a great opportunity to destroy all hope of their players roleplaying that alignment. It's unfair to say, "u have 2 atack teh bard he has a milion inocent comoners. do u kill them?" That is one BBEG that my players could not defeat if they had no way to get to him other than through a mass of commoners. In my experience, bards are scariest when playing either huge instruments or instruments which were not invented by the simulated time period. Example: enormous, castle-covering pipe organs are scary, as are violin-playing bards in a fantasy setting. Obviously the way to get past the commoners is subterfuge and stealth. That said, the bard will expect that. If you are going to have an evil bard, you can't take away his ability to turn good minions against the PCs, as that's one of the things that makes them such great evil masterminds: they may compel some people, but they can also garner real devotion and loyalty through sheer charisma. Against most BBEGs, the players can find easy allies. No good lord wants and evil necromancer working in his terrirtory, for example, so that lord would naturally be inclined to help the PCs. That same lord, ion teh other hand, may be absolutely convinced that the high-Diplomacy bard is a hero with a heart of gold and that any evidence to the contrary is fabricated. He may well help the evil bard stop the PCs (and would certainly be sympathetic if that bard frames them for, or accuses them of, a crime). The players could find themselves outlaws (in the original, civil death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw#A_feature_of_older_legal_systems) , sense of the word). with their enemy sharing pleasantries with the players' "natural" allies. That also means that the players facing an evil bard may well come into conflict with the authorities...the law or groups of citizens. They need to figure out how to handle that. If the bard fails to use those tactics, then he'd not using all of his talents. He wouldn't care about "sparing" the PCs the moral dilemma.
Roivas 09-09-06, 09:48 PM	I love it when people think that if they can't kill something their GM is a idiot who hasn't considered his player's character concepts, and is trying to ruin them. If I needed to get past 1000 commoners to kill this bard I'd either use spells such as magic circle against evil to break the enchantment, sanctuary to avoid attacks, or just use non-lethal damage. Creative players can find a way past any situation, mindless combat monkies see an obstical and try to bash it down. I would also like to mention Trigun's coolest villian of all Lagato Bluesummers. True he would more likely be psionic than bard, but that isn't the point. He used his ability to control people to drive Vash over the edge, and had a big front line of people to keep himself safe.
cog_and_taz 09-09-06, 11:24 PM	The point of having a bard as BBEG is not that he will kick their asses himself. He will use his charisma, music and magic to have others kick their asses...or even to have party members kick other party members asses. It's like making the BBEG a politician (which happens all the time in the movies), he uses his charisma and power to thwart the PCs indirectly and to turn the "system" against them. Even if the bard isn't a politician, be can use his superior Bluff skill to convince every local sheriff that the PCs are vile criminals that needs to be captured and killed, and use his superior Diplomacy skill to make that sheriff and the locals think he is the best thing since the invention of wands. He can convince the best, bravest and most good that the PCs are the enemies that need to be stopped, and unless the PCs have a similar "charisma bandit" in the party, good luck convincing your attackers otherwise. His spell selection will be things like Charm Person, Detect Thoughts, Glibness, Scrying, Modify Memory, Dominate Person and Listening Coin (Spell Compendium), and he'll make copious use of his Suggestion ability. That said, once the PCs have caught up to and overcome all those people defending him, fighting him won't be that great a challenge (Until he casts Dominate Person" on the more powerful party members...whose abilities he'll know based on his stellar Gather Information checks and his Listening Coins and all the Scrying he's done against them). He beats them by turning everyone against them, learning everything about them and using what he learns to cripple them in advance. He the villain whose dangerous because he is obscenely well prepared for everything the PCs can throw at him. Basically, he's Batman with mind control powers. What he said,minus batman. The bard shouldn't be the direct combat chappie, he should be the support/misinformation of sheriffs type of guy, without black cars and eye lasers or whatever. Also, lyre of building+adamantine bricks+DM fluffing= otiluke's resilient sphere mk2:D Oh, and pipes of the sewers that enlarge/enrage/SR/whathaveyou the resulting rats:evillaugh
Limousine_Liberal 09-09-06, 11:36 PM	I should have also added: Bardic Lore means he's also a very good choice for the ultimate in cinematic cliche's: the ancient, long lost, doomsday weapon. If anyone will know about and work to acquire the forgotten superweapon of a long dead civilization, it's an evil bard.
coppro 09-09-06, 11:44 PM	Or a wizard with knowledge (doomsday devices).
Andrew 09-10-06, 12:11 AM	A couple ideas: A bard/alienist that summons pseudonatural creatures, strengthening their incomprehensable forms with the blasphemous songs of the outer dark. A bard that emphasizes being a fighter-mage. Possible ideas are using Snowflake Wardance [feat from Frostburn] to improve attacks, swift invisibility [spell compendium] at the end of its turn to hide from attackers, alter self to improve its armor class, that sort of thing.
scienceman47 09-10-06, 12:54 AM	If I get the opportunity to DM, i'm making a giant fortress with a magical pipe organ running throughout that a bard plays while the players are there. So awesome. I must steal this idea.
Hydryh 09-10-06, 02:09 AM	snipAnother classic BBEG Bard move is to have a lot of minions in a well fortified stronghold... when the PCs try to get in.... well the massive pipe organ that runs through the entire complex starts to play (works best if you have The Phantom of the Opera cued up in your CD player) your PCs may well wet themselves. And if it runs through the whole complex, you (being the DM) could rule that every minion in the entire castle/whatever gets the bonuses as though he's standing right there. I also recommend the organ music from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, and there's a couple good bits on the soundtrack to Final Fantasy VI. And yep, Legato is a great example of a manipulative villain. Doctor Doom as well, at least as far as how he uses his peasants. Oh, and the villain of Infinite Crisis (Don't want to spoil it...) I wish I could recall the enormous list of excellent manipulators that's in my head... Ah well, I'll post again if I do. The best (from a "I'm an evil Bard" view) thing to do would be after the party fights their way to the Bard's main chamber (as the last notes of his song die out, of course), he stands, turns to the party, delivers a few crushing lines, and leaves out the secret door (just as his cohort and other best men arrive, or just as the party discovers the Wall of Force or Prismatic Wall protecting him. "Glad to see you could make it to my show, gentlemen, but I'm afriad I have somewhere else to be. Ta! This is of course assuming that he would be ready for the party. Don't do this just to mock the PCs or to railroad them; that's just bad form.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-10-06, 03:15 AM	At higher levels, Bard/Eldritch Knights (Brd 6, Ftr1, EK 5) are particularly impressive, having excellent combat ability on top of all sorts of nice buffs for your self or everyone else. The Bard's armored casting makes him perfect for the archtype.
Andrew 09-10-06, 03:21 AM	The Assassin spell list, at least in core, also is largely a subset of the Bard list.
Thurbane 09-10-06, 03:44 AM	Two words: MISTER LORDI! Half-fiend Bard/Fighter http://www.rockidols.ru/up/upload/52-lordi-120703-28.jpg
PiedmonSama 09-10-06, 04:18 AM	A couple ideas: A bard/alienist that summons pseudonatural creatures, strengthening their incomprehensable forms with the blasphemous songs of the outer dark. Oh, that is awesome. I finally have a concept for an evil Bard that I like!
HauptSin 09-10-06, 10:36 AM	I don't understand the tendency to try to make bards silly. Because they're so easy to make silly? :p But really, in my case, it's because this campaign is going to be entirely un-serious, and I want the PCs to have the option of defeating E'mo, once and for all! Just have to look for the appropriate emo songs for each song effect... But seriously, thanks for all the tips and ideas. I'm thinking that I just might make E'mo the agent of a *real* Big-Bad-Evil Bard overlord with his own city and fortress and all that jazz. ^_^
Crystal Monk 09-10-06, 01:20 PM	there are some excellent suggestions in here, and more than a few I'm going to have to steal. I'm very, very glad that the idea of an evil bard as master manipulator and the like has come up; I think the fact that a bard could spread propaganda against a party so that they're already feared and hated when they show up is something that's vastly overlooked. as for the BBEG Bard getting away, there's a magic item that's been overlooked: Cape of the Mountebank, DMG p.252. basically, it's a flashy cloak that makes it so you seem to disappear (Dimension Door) in a puff of smoke. I mean, you don't get more deliberately dramatic and so very bardly than that. and it could easily be adapted to work more often or go a greater distance. and HauptSin, while I think the idea of "E'mo" is a bit silly, I think the idea of making him the agent (or perhaps apprentice) of the *real* BBEG Bard overlord is an excellent idea. nothing quite like your players thinking one adversary is going to be just like the last... and then pulling the rug, the floor, and the entire dungeon out from under them. :evillaugh
HauptSin 09-10-06, 01:55 PM	E'mo is supposed to be silly. But then again, look at the evil influence Emo culture and music is having on adolescents around the globe! :o And thanks for the reminder about the cape. I have so many random Non-Core books now that I often overlook the stuff in the DMG. >_>
Generic Fighter 09-11-06, 04:04 AM	To the original poster, I, too, have used an EVIL BARD as a BBEG in a campaign and later posted his stats and stuff on the D20 NPC Wiki. If you want to check them out for some inspiration there is a link to the Wiki in my Sig. Look for Gester Stromhivven, Chaotic Evil Bard under CR 13, Human or Bard in the D&D section there. My party absolutely HATED this "Enchanter Wizard" that turned out to be a Bard:devil: Especially check the spells He has and his Common tactics to see the tactics that made my party cringe:evillaugh Generic Fighter:fight!: