Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MortalPlague 02-23-05, 08:02 PM	I was running a side quest on my campaign where the party had to go and kill a mighty ogre, Dando. Now, the characters were mostly second level at the start of the quest, but there were seven of them, so the ogre would be able to provide a challenge. I also knew that a couple of characters would likely hit third during the course of travelling to the ogre's cave, so they'd likely be able to survive the encounter. However, i wanted to make it tough... I hate when the players kill the bad guy in two hits because they just deal a ton of damage. In an attempt to make the encounter last longer, I advanced Dando's constitution to 20, and gave him a level of rogue for a total of 54 hit points. I also gave him a couple of potions; two of invisibility, and two of cure serious wounds, which would definately make the fight a little more challenging. Then I designed his dungeon cave with a number of traps and guardians that would alert the ogre of any approaching adventurers. The players, however, were smart. They decided to wait outside the cave to ambush Dando when he next left. That was fine, the ogre himself would still provide a challenge, even if his traps were bypassed. Cleverness on the part of the players ought to be rewarded. So they ambushed him, and attacked him. ON his first round, Dando drank a potion of invisiibility, provoking attacks of opportunity. The gnomish cleric hit with his morningstar... which had been coated with a contact poison, carrion crawler brain juice. A DC13 fortitude save had to be made. I rolled a 2. Dando became paralyzed in the first round. :eek: The PCs had an easy time dispatching him... probably the easiest BBEG they've ever faced. I was pretty disappointed; Dando hadn't even gotten a swing in. But smart playing and a little bit of luck thwarted my plans.
Guy Humual 02-23-05, 08:25 PM	hehe, did your roll in front of your players or what? Take my advice . . . a DM doesn't really have to keep what he rolls. That works both ways, if the party is getting thrashed by the BBEG, he might suddenly start missing. Dice rolls are random . . . good stories aren't. For the sake of the story you could say that he made the saving throw. ;)
speeblefreak 02-23-05, 08:29 PM	BBEG goes down in two rounds? hehe...been there, done that. It's fun. Hey, everyone has their off days. Dando just had his at the wrong time. Besides, would you penalize chars at higher levels for successfully casting Finger of Death?
Dementio 02-23-05, 08:35 PM	Let them know that they have been lucky in addition to the fact that their plan was good and rest the case. There is always a tomorrow :-) And there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to celebrate the victory
Afarian 02-23-05, 08:38 PM	DOH!! That sucks!! I hate it when players get lucky and kill your critters and BBEG's with almost no effort. I'm not sure if your asking for suggestions here or just making a statement. It doesn't look like there's much you could have done differently, except perhaps given him some way of knowing the players were going to Ambush him so he could drink the potion before combat OR just not taken the risk of an AoO. Either way I would give your players at least a little extra exp for being smart and defeating a tougher than normal ogre!
Piff 02-23-05, 09:05 PM	Oh I'm just a player but the BBEG went down so fast when i went against it. Our party walked in and found a Ogre Captian and a Orog Captian. I had an item that gave me flame shield and as a fighter i had alot of health. The first round the Ogre swung a hammer hitting me for 45 points of dammage near max. From that the Ogre lost almost half his health while we held the Orog. Then all everyone had to do is make one attack and the Ogre went down and the DM meant to make this one of the hardest battles we would encounter.
Mirikon 02-23-05, 09:10 PM	Yeah, that happens sometimes. Reward your characters for their good work. Or, be evil, and tell them that it was actually an illusion of some kind. Either way works. :devil:
Sildatorak 02-23-05, 09:47 PM	That sort of thing will happen on occasion. On other occasions, your BBEG will do a full round attack, crit on a couple of the hits and just rip the living crap out of the barbarian. Just don't let them have every ambush go perfectly. I know that if I were the BBEG, I would have my typical exits from my lair guarded. Any hiding place that could serve as an ambush within about 50 ft of the entrance would either have a flunky already hiding in it or have been torn out/smashed down/etc. Also, try giving BBEG's body guards, especially with a party that size. 7 attacks will just brutally destroy pretty much any opponent that isn't going to TPK your group. If that ogre had been surrounded by a handful of goblins, he would have had a buffer between him and the party. The party would tear through the goblins like no other, but they would at least slow them down enough that the ogre could down a potion quickly. Also, sometimes give enemies with reach combat reflexes. It can be a nasty surprise for a player when a charg from ambush is stopped by a trip 10' away from the baddy.
Lxarth 02-23-05, 09:56 PM	Another thing to consider is that actual challenge this provided the players...you might reduce the XP received for such a one sided fight. But at the same time you need to award XP for good strategy
adrj 02-23-05, 11:34 PM	It drives me absolutely nuts every time I see someone suggest lowering xp awarded (or lowering the cr period) for a battle after the battle is over. Good planning and a little bit of luck should never result in a loss of xp. That being said, I wouldn't give xp for overcoming the traps in the cave if the players didn't know they were there. If the players had explored the cave to some extent and discovered some of the traps, I would give them xp for overcoming the discovered traps only.
Draktaven 02-24-05, 12:14 AM	Bah, that sucks. But I think I have one that’s better. You see, your failure was do to good planning and a favorable chance on the players side. Mine Failure was do to a astounding bounty of luck bestowed upon my enemies headstrong and blatantly reckless strategy. My BBEG, or rather his ultra powerful minion, was a necromancer who had been plaguing the parties attempts at recovering some artifacts in recently discovered ruins. One the biggest problem with this guy was that his undead minions would explode in negative energy damaging the players and healing the surrounding undead. They finally stumbled upon his lair, and buffing charged in. Now, the necro was very aware of their presence and had summoned his most powerful minions, and covered the room in traps. The party was well organized and did an astounding amount of damage, but this battle was designed to make them inch themselves toward the BBEG, other wise trap and AoO's would finish them fast. There was literally a trap in just about every square surround the BBEG. Enough traps to kill the ranger, who had a vorpal blade. After using a scrying device to gain a quick view of the room, they devised their plan. Extremely coordinated defensive advance, as I thought they would. But it turns out the Ranger and the Fighter had another plan. We they opened the door, the first thing did was charge right through every single one of the Necros minions. These guys were lined up just right so that they all got AoO. The fighter took most of the damage, because not all of the minions had combat reflexes. Then they ran head long into the traps, fighter taking all the damage because he was in front. The fighter stopped when he got to 2hp and ranger led on with about 1/4 of his health left. He had 6 hp by the time he got to the BBEG, and then 3 when he got knocked by his staff. I was getting ready for a TPK, because these guys were next next round and the ranger only had 1 attack. With only a cleric and wizard left after them, there would not be much of a fight. With a look of disdainful hilarity on my face I tell the ranger to roll his attack. Me: Well that was retarded, you probably wont even get past his AC, roll your attack. Ranger: Ok....YES, natural 20! Me: [scared now] uhhhh ok roll confirmation for the vorpal Ranger: fine....WOA ANOTHER NATURAL 20!!!! Me: :OMG! So off went his head and poof went his undead. Speechless, completely and utterly speechless. Never have I seen such idiotic strategy work so magnificently. I know I could have made him immune to crits, but the guy was buff enough, and he would have been invincible with immune to crits, and it didn’t fit the setting. I did see it coming damn it! I planned for vorpals, Killing the necro was why the sword existed, I made damn sure that if he was vorpaled it would have been well into the fight! Sigh, that guy was a total bad ass, I guess I just under estimated the moronic ingenuity of my players.
pokli 02-24-05, 01:59 AM	Hmm did the villagers neglet to tell the party of Dando's twin brother. The one that was slowerer and kind of wore heavier armor and that Dando always enjoyed making fun and tease his slower brother. And of course Dando's brother keeps forgetting were all the traps are and sometimes wanders into them even though he helps set them himself. You can still have your fight in this case all the prep you do is give a heaveier armor a lower dex and int and knock of about 2 rounds of hitpoints only pull this trick at the most 1/2 the time the party prematurely downs the bbeg. or prepare the not so bbeg he's waiting after the bbeg is downed and takes on the weakend adventures in order to get the treasure the bbeg had and the snack flavored adventures are a bonus.
MortalPlague 02-24-05, 04:50 AM	Haha... I was relating an anecdote more than I was really asking for help, but thanks for the suggestions anyway. I have no problems with the players getting lucky, and I'm extremely glad they showed some strategic sense. Dando the ogre did have minions, but they took the forms of several shriekers in his cave who would shriek if anyone approached. The ogre had no reason to suspect an ambush when coming out of his cave, so he didn't, and therefore, got ambushed. I'm not at a lack for bad guys, mind you. On the journey to the ogre's cave, the party had previously been ambushed by a tribe of lizardmen. They killed most of them and took a shaman prisoner on their first encounter when they survived the ambush, and so the lizardmen are out to get them. After the party spent a while squabbling about which way to return to the town, they were nearly caught by about two dozen lizardmen with some tamed basilisks... Then there's the salamander forces who form the main plotline for the campaign, and ultimately the advanced average salamander who serves as their local commander. :D
Solidcobra 02-24-05, 05:24 AM	What BBEG isn't immune to poison, death effects, mind-affecting, etc? Bad ones. Making the BBEG immune to everything but pink marshmallow arrows may seem dumb, but if it's in the rules, it's preferrable to "yeah, he got unlucky so the archvile is now dead. wow. how fun." Good things to be immune to: Poison, death, mind-affecting, fire, cold, psionics, sneak attack, critical. BAD things to be immune to: "Physical damage" (exception being barbarian, armor or warforged DR) Good options for BBEGs are thus... Undead. Warforged juggernauts. Outsiders with outsider-only magic gear.
Dark_Tide 02-24-05, 08:01 AM	The way I see it, for a first level encounter with a BBEG, things went rather well. One swing from the ogre would hit any one with a low AC and deal enough damage to drop them into the negetives. If the party met him on his terms, after going through his cave, there would be the chance for TPK, especially with potions of invisibility. They plan probably made for some good roleplaying and character interaction, and they probably had alot of fun trying their plan and seeing that it worked. As for the poison, high risks = high rewards... I'd be more inclined to fudge the roll in favor of the PC. I'd give normal exp. except more to the mastermind of the plan and the gnome.
digoraccoon 02-24-05, 08:54 AM	Reminds me of our last session, when the party took down a BBEG mindflayer with VERY unconventional means. He wasn't supposed to die this encounter, but the ingenuity of the PCs made it happen. The mindflayer had a flying castle that the PCs managed to get up into (with Bahamut's help) and assulted the defenses and guardians head on in a surprise attack. They did awesomely well, even with occasional bad rolls. They even spared the adult green dragon in the basement after rendering her unconscious. They reach the mindflayer in the top of the flying castle, the control room for the whole place. After a long epic fight, the mindflayer was getting wittled down and running out of spells and psi powers. So he decided to leave out the window and cast fly. Well on this round the party Wizard had readied an action to dispel the next spell the BBEG was going to cast... so she rolled for it... and successfully dispelled his Fly spell... as he went out the window... 3 miles above the Earth. To seal the deal, the party rogue figured out how to give the castle basic movement commands with the "Use Magical Device" skill and instructed the castle to ram the mindflayer and keep going. The party abandons castle, using fly scrolls, feather fall spells, and latching on to each other. They got great view of the BBEG's castle slamming into the ground at terminal velocity with the mindflayer stuck on the underside like a bug on a windshield. :D Best. BBEG. death. ever.
MortalPlague 02-24-05, 09:17 AM	I have my doubts that a TPK would've ensued. Every character had a fair helping of hit points, and the ones with the most probably would've been able to take a blow from the ogre and keep standing. One or two characters may have been knocked unconscious, or on a few bad rolls, killed. As far as making the BBEG immune, well, I agree- but for later bad guys. My Salamander Commander will certainly have outsider gear, and will definately be at least resistant to many of those things. But for Dando, being a side BBEG, and an early encounter, I wasn't about to load him up with resistances. :p
True Cavalier 02-24-05, 03:55 PM	I had a party of 3 people designed especially to kick the arses of the 3-man party. The barbarian was tougher than the group's fighter, the cleric had prepared spells just for them, and the wizard had better spells than the group's pitiful sorcerer (Well the wizard also had only like 6-7 hit points, she was level 5, but oh well...she had used a scroll of stoneskin) Round 1 of fight. They lose initiative, get fireballed, half-die... and then. The cleric casts Hold Person on the wizard, she fails the save (sniff), and immediately the sorcerer casts Charm Person on the barbarian. Evil cleric tries to persuade the barbarian with words to be on his side, but fails. Gives a potion of Remove Paralysis to the wizard... then the party plays again, the wizard gets a Scorching Ray from the sorcerer, (dies, naturally), and they finish off the barbarian. Also reminds me of the time they killed a super-assasin in 2 rounds. Who said rogues have much hit points...
zenon 02-24-05, 05:47 PM	My party were nearing epic level when we at last came fact to face with our mightiest adeversary yet. Our poor DM had spent a considerable amount of time preparing him. The encounter went something like this: BBEG: (Monologing) Your feeble skills are no match for the power of me! Etc. Cleric: Dimension Doors party to BBEG Wizard: Casts antimagic field. BBEG is instantly reduced to a scrawny middle-aged man. Barbarian: *Hack* *Slash* *Whack* BBEG: Urk. It's important to get the initiative just right.