BBEG help please [Archive] - Wizards Community

BBEG help please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Feral_Druid
04-07-08, 12:04 PM Ok, I need a BBEG for the crescendo to my campaign. A little background for you all: He is an arcane caster, with levels in a divine class (not sure which one). He created a religious organization which persecutes arcane spellcasters, in order to achieve his own personal goals (summoning an all powerful dark being from the underworld). I need a good build for him. I'm thinking that he's about level 14. He has to be really old (1000+ years). Any ideas for classes, PRCs?
The_Black_Hand
04-07-08, 12:34 PM Ok, I need a BBEG for the crescendo to my campaign. A little background for you all: He is an arcane caster, with levels in a divine class (not sure which one). He created a religious organization which persecutes arcane spellcasters, in order to achieve his own personal goals (summoning an all powerful dark being from the underworld). I need a good build for him. I'm thinking that he's about level 14. He has to be really old (1000+ years). Any ideas for classes, PRCs?

Make him a Lich, for starters. (d12 for hp) there are feats that can allow you to use Cha as though it were Con (even giving extra hp if I remember correctly)

I'll look over all of the PrCs I know and see what I can come up with for class build.
CrimsonDeath
04-07-08, 03:02 PM Make him a Lich, for starters. (d12 for hp) there are feats that can allow you to use Cha as though it were Con (even giving extra hp if I remember correctly)

There's no such feat. It's a racial trait of certain undead, including the Dry Lich (from Sandstorm), a template which can be gained by taking the Walker in the Waste PrC (also from Sandstorm).

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer X is a classic.
Cherubaddon
04-07-08, 03:15 PM True Necromancer might be a classic, but it's also, like, the weakest theurge PrC ever. I would strongly disagree with this suggestion. You lose FOUR levels in both your casting classes, three levels in undead rebuking, have to take a pretty much worthless domain (Death), give up armour and stuff for some abilities that are less than impressive.

I second the lich idea: If he's a wizard/cleric, it enhances ALL his relevant stats, which is cool, gives him a lot of other stuff, AND immortality (kind of).

The wizard/divine caster is not a particularly powerful choice, as the synergy between the two is scarce. However, if you want to stick with it, you could do worse than taking Mystic Theurge: It's not AWESOME, but it makes the most of that build.

Finally, to pack some much-needed punch, consider the use of corrupt spells from BoVD: While there is some obscure CustServ ruling on how it works with undead, this is your BBEG, so I guess bending the rules to make a cool character isn't too out of the way. In other words, have him use those without paying the corruption cost (as he's undead, so he's technically immune to ability damage...).

Hope it helps.
-Cherubaddon
nightwyrm
04-07-08, 03:35 PM If you're using the spell compendium I have a pretty interesting combo for you. Magic Jar + Death Throes(SpC).
LeeAlucard
04-07-08, 04:25 PM Probably just a preference of mine, but I think I'd go with Archivist/Wizard, rather than Cleric/Wizard. Same spell list either way, but the Archivist also has Dark Knowledge and casts from Intelligence instead of Wisdom.
pigknight
04-07-08, 04:56 PM I 2nd archivist/wizard.

Lich archivist 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 8.
Bloodsoul
04-07-08, 05:39 PM delete
Bloodsoul
04-07-08, 05:40 PM Sorcerer/Bard + Spirit Shaman w/ Dynamic Priest feat into Mystic Theurge as a charismatic alternative. Not as strong as Wizard/Archivist.. but something about a Lich Bard sounds kinda fun. Especially since they can come in a troupe. With vampires. Bard vampires? You could make an evil circus.. <_<
CrimsonDeath
04-07-08, 07:38 PM True Necromancer might be a classic, but it's also, like, the weakest theurge PrC ever. I would strongly disagree with this suggestion. You lose FOUR levels in both your casting classes, three levels in undead rebuking, have to take a pretty much worthless domain (Death), give up armour and stuff for some abilities that are less than impressive.

I second the lich idea: If he's a wizard/cleric, it enhances ALL his relevant stats, which is cool, gives him a lot of other stuff, AND immortality (kind of).

I know that True Necro sucks as a class, and I'd never recommend it to a player (without extensive caveats). However, it's great for a DM. It simply drips with flavor, and since the DM has infinite resources, he can just add a couple of levels if the BBEG isn't up to snuff.

But let's compare a Wiz 3/Clr 3/True Necro 8 (CR 14) to, let's say, a Wiz 9/Clr 3 Lich (CR 14)-- remember, the OP said he wanted some divine spellcasting in there.

The True Necro has level 9 Wizard casting, level 9 Cleric casting, level 13 Cleric rebuking, +2 caster level on Necromancy spells, and an 80' Zone of Desecration that only affects allied undead. Plus, he can cast Create Undead 2/day and Create Greater Undead 1/day as a level 16 caster.

The lich has level 9 Wizard casting, level 3 Cleric casting, level 3 Cleric casting, and level 3 Cleric rebuking, along with Lich traits.

In fact, let's assume Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6 Lich. His spellcasting isn't any better than the True Necro's, he has fewer HD, his rebuking is awful, and he lacks the True Necro's other goodies.

Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge isn't too bad if you use your Wizard spells to attack and Archivist spells for defense and no-save attacks. If you go with a Charisma build, I'd suggest Dread Necromancer instead of Sorcerer or Bard.

Undead work for the 1000+ years old (Necropolitan is a decent +0LA option), but any race without a maximum age will do (Warforged, Elan, and Killoren come to mind). The Killoren works best thematically if you use Spirit Shaman on the divine side.
The_Black_Hand
04-07-08, 11:14 PM There's no such feat. It's a racial trait of certain undead, including the Dry Lich (from Sandstorm), a template which can be gained by taking the Walker in the Waste PrC (also from Sandstorm).

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer X is a classic.

No, there are feats as well. I believe its in Libris Mortis.
CrimsonDeath
04-08-08, 01:32 AM No, there are feats as well. I believe its in Libris Mortis.

I dare you to find it.

I'm looking at LM right now, and it's not here.

It's not in Heroes of Horror either.

The closest I can find (from the X Stat to Y Bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) thread) is Beauty's Bounty (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a), which only affects your level 1 HP and is only available to Fey.
Escef
04-08-08, 02:12 AM Adding Unholy Toughness to a Lich might be worth an extra CR +1 if, and only if, it buys him an extra round in which to act.

Honestly, I'd just straight up go Wizard3/Cleric3/MysticTheurge8, Practiced Spellcaster feat twice, Unholy Toughness as a bonus ability, and when generating stats pump his age modifiers all the way up. This maxes ability scores as much as possible and makes up for his normally weak hit dice by converting them to a straight 14d12+14(Cha mod), average hp of 91+14(Cha mod).

The next question is tactics. I know that most people think Necromancer when they think Lich, but there is no reason for this. Lichdom is just one of many routes to immortality. There is so much ground to cover here that I won't bother giving suggestions. What do you want to do? Armed with that knowledge, we might be able to suggest the best way to go about it.

Honestly, being an elemental confers most of the bonuses of lichdom, along with the lack of the drawback of being turnable. Being an outsider also promises immortality, but loses fewer of the drawbacks of mortality. If this caster wants to go the machine route you could stat them up as a Warforged (Eberron Campaign Setting/Monster Manual III), or simply give them the construct type with the living construct subtype.
Cherubaddon
04-08-08, 09:41 AM But let's compare a Wiz 3/Clr 3/True Necro 8 (CR 14) to, let's say, a Wiz 9/Clr 3 Lich (CR 14)-- remember, the OP said he wanted some divine spellcasting in there.

The True Necro has level 9 Wizard casting, level 9 Cleric casting, level 13 Cleric rebuking, +2 caster level on Necromancy spells, and an 80' Zone of Desecration that only affects allied undead. Plus, he can cast Create Undead 2/day and Create Greater Undead 1/day as a level 16 caster.

The lich has level 9 Wizard casting, level 3 Cleric casting, level 3 Cleric casting, and level 3 Cleric rebuking, along with Lich traits.

In fact, let's assume Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6 Lich. His spellcasting isn't any better than the True Necro's, he has fewer HD, his rebuking is awful, and he lacks the True Necro's other goodies.

As far as I can tell, your argument is fallacious, because you are mixing up a template with a class. The question "to lich or not to lich" has nothing whatsoever to do with the class he will take.

So if you want that argument to hold, let's rather compare the two classes on an equal footing: Wiz3/Clr3/True Nec8 with a Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic8:

So, the True Necromancer has Rebuke undead (which, thanks to losing 3 levels, is waaay behind, so probably worthless anyway, especially if the PCs are not undead), Create undead (with a ten minute casting time, that is a downtime spell; if a BBEG has to use that in combat, that means he is losing), a desecration effect (the spell is good, but it's also 2nd level), and a CL increase for necromantic effects (certainly a good ability).

The Mystic Theurge has no Rebuking, but AN ADDITIONAL CASTER LEVEL for both of his classes. In other words, he can use desecrate something like a dozen times per day if he really cares that much, and replaces the +2 CL for necromancy with a +1 CL for ALL spells. Oh, and the cleric can actually take a useful domain (since he doesn't need Death), say, Deathbound or Undeath or such.

However, I do agree that the wizard/archivist thing is probably the way to go.

Oh, and about immortality: Why do you even care? Being a lich is cool, but you're the DM, so if you just say that he brewed a special potion or somesuch, just say that he has lived a thousand years and no-one will contradict you. You don't need a rule justification for something that is essentially just flavour.

-Cherubaddon
JasonOrlandoHawk
04-08-08, 01:18 PM I don't have my books in front of me, but I have an alternate route if Undead isn't very appealing: Dragon Magazine #354: Ancient PC's. It's got several ways to have a character live 1,000+ years, without gaining templates or subtypes.

There is one option that may suit you particularly well: Apostle of the Forgotten.

Basically, the character is a servant of a dead/forgotten god (reason for your divine caster levels). As for the persecution of Arcane casters... how did the god die? If it appeals to you, I'd suggest hunting down that magazine. It's worth it for that article alone.
The_Black_Hand
04-08-08, 03:02 PM I dare you to find it.

I'm looking at LM right now, and it's not here.

It's not in Heroes of Horror either.

The closest I can find (from the X Stat to Y Bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) thread) is Beauty's Bounty (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a), which only affects your level 1 HP and is only available to Fey.

I know there are feats, I will look through my books when I go to my DMs house. We play next weekend.
CrimsonDeath
04-08-08, 05:35 PM As far as I can tell, your argument is fallacious, because you are mixing up a template with a class. The question "to lich or not to lich" has nothing whatsoever to do with the class he will take.

In that case, you misunderstood my argument. I'm saying to make the character a True Necro instead of a Lich.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Feral_Druid 04-07-08, 12:04 PM	Ok, I need a BBEG for the crescendo to my campaign. A little background for you all: He is an arcane caster, with levels in a divine class (not sure which one). He created a religious organization which persecutes arcane spellcasters, in order to achieve his own personal goals (summoning an all powerful dark being from the underworld). I need a good build for him. I'm thinking that he's about level 14. He has to be really old (1000+ years). Any ideas for classes, PRCs?
The_Black_Hand 04-07-08, 12:34 PM	Ok, I need a BBEG for the crescendo to my campaign. A little background for you all: He is an arcane caster, with levels in a divine class (not sure which one). He created a religious organization which persecutes arcane spellcasters, in order to achieve his own personal goals (summoning an all powerful dark being from the underworld). I need a good build for him. I'm thinking that he's about level 14. He has to be really old (1000+ years). Any ideas for classes, PRCs? Make him a Lich, for starters. (d12 for hp) there are feats that can allow you to use Cha as though it were Con (even giving extra hp if I remember correctly) I'll look over all of the PrCs I know and see what I can come up with for class build.
CrimsonDeath 04-07-08, 03:02 PM	Make him a Lich, for starters. (d12 for hp) there are feats that can allow you to use Cha as though it were Con (even giving extra hp if I remember correctly) There's no such feat. It's a racial trait of certain undead, including the Dry Lich (from Sandstorm), a template which can be gained by taking the Walker in the Waste PrC (also from Sandstorm). Wizard 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer X is a classic.
Cherubaddon 04-07-08, 03:15 PM	True Necromancer might be a classic, but it's also, like, the weakest theurge PrC ever. I would strongly disagree with this suggestion. You lose FOUR levels in both your casting classes, three levels in undead rebuking, have to take a pretty much worthless domain (Death), give up armour and stuff for some abilities that are less than impressive. I second the lich idea: If he's a wizard/cleric, it enhances ALL his relevant stats, which is cool, gives him a lot of other stuff, AND immortality (kind of). The wizard/divine caster is not a particularly powerful choice, as the synergy between the two is scarce. However, if you want to stick with it, you could do worse than taking Mystic Theurge: It's not AWESOME, but it makes the most of that build. Finally, to pack some much-needed punch, consider the use of corrupt spells from BoVD: While there is some obscure CustServ ruling on how it works with undead, this is your BBEG, so I guess bending the rules to make a cool character isn't too out of the way. In other words, have him use those without paying the corruption cost (as he's undead, so he's technically immune to ability damage...). Hope it helps. -Cherubaddon
nightwyrm 04-07-08, 03:35 PM	If you're using the spell compendium I have a pretty interesting combo for you. Magic Jar + Death Throes(SpC).
LeeAlucard 04-07-08, 04:25 PM	Probably just a preference of mine, but I think I'd go with Archivist/Wizard, rather than Cleric/Wizard. Same spell list either way, but the Archivist also has Dark Knowledge and casts from Intelligence instead of Wisdom.
pigknight 04-07-08, 04:56 PM	I 2nd archivist/wizard. Lich archivist 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 8.
Bloodsoul 04-07-08, 05:39 PM	delete
Bloodsoul 04-07-08, 05:40 PM	Sorcerer/Bard + Spirit Shaman w/ Dynamic Priest feat into Mystic Theurge as a charismatic alternative. Not as strong as Wizard/Archivist.. but something about a Lich Bard sounds kinda fun. Especially since they can come in a troupe. With vampires. Bard vampires? You could make an evil circus.. <_<
CrimsonDeath 04-07-08, 07:38 PM	True Necromancer might be a classic, but it's also, like, the weakest theurge PrC ever. I would strongly disagree with this suggestion. You lose FOUR levels in both your casting classes, three levels in undead rebuking, have to take a pretty much worthless domain (Death), give up armour and stuff for some abilities that are less than impressive. I second the lich idea: If he's a wizard/cleric, it enhances ALL his relevant stats, which is cool, gives him a lot of other stuff, AND immortality (kind of). I know that True Necro sucks as a class, and I'd never recommend it to a player (without extensive caveats). However, it's great for a DM. It simply drips with flavor, and since the DM has infinite resources, he can just add a couple of levels if the BBEG isn't up to snuff. But let's compare a Wiz 3/Clr 3/True Necro 8 (CR 14) to, let's say, a Wiz 9/Clr 3 Lich (CR 14)-- remember, the OP said he wanted some divine spellcasting in there. The True Necro has level 9 Wizard casting, level 9 Cleric casting, level 13 Cleric rebuking, +2 caster level on Necromancy spells, and an 80' Zone of Desecration that only affects allied undead. Plus, he can cast Create Undead 2/day and Create Greater Undead 1/day as a level 16 caster. The lich has level 9 Wizard casting, level 3 Cleric casting, level 3 Cleric casting, and level 3 Cleric rebuking, along with Lich traits. In fact, let's assume Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6 Lich. His spellcasting isn't any better than the True Necro's, he has fewer HD, his rebuking is awful, and he lacks the True Necro's other goodies. Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge isn't too bad if you use your Wizard spells to attack and Archivist spells for defense and no-save attacks. If you go with a Charisma build, I'd suggest Dread Necromancer instead of Sorcerer or Bard. Undead work for the 1000+ years old (Necropolitan is a decent +0LA option), but any race without a maximum age will do (Warforged, Elan, and Killoren come to mind). The Killoren works best thematically if you use Spirit Shaman on the divine side.
The_Black_Hand 04-07-08, 11:14 PM	There's no such feat. It's a racial trait of certain undead, including the Dry Lich (from Sandstorm), a template which can be gained by taking the Walker in the Waste PrC (also from Sandstorm). Wizard 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer X is a classic. No, there are feats as well. I believe its in Libris Mortis.
CrimsonDeath 04-08-08, 01:32 AM	No, there are feats as well. I believe its in Libris Mortis. I dare you to find it. I'm looking at LM right now, and it's not here. It's not in Heroes of Horror either. The closest I can find (from the X Stat to Y Bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) thread) is Beauty's Bounty (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a), which only affects your level 1 HP and is only available to Fey.
Escef 04-08-08, 02:12 AM	Adding Unholy Toughness to a Lich might be worth an extra CR +1 if, and only if, it buys him an extra round in which to act. Honestly, I'd just straight up go Wizard3/Cleric3/MysticTheurge8, Practiced Spellcaster feat twice, Unholy Toughness as a bonus ability, and when generating stats pump his age modifiers all the way up. This maxes ability scores as much as possible and makes up for his normally weak hit dice by converting them to a straight 14d12+14(Cha mod), average hp of 91+14(Cha mod). The next question is tactics. I know that most people think Necromancer when they think Lich, but there is no reason for this. Lichdom is just one of many routes to immortality. There is so much ground to cover here that I won't bother giving suggestions. What do you want to do? Armed with that knowledge, we might be able to suggest the best way to go about it. Honestly, being an elemental confers most of the bonuses of lichdom, along with the lack of the drawback of being turnable. Being an outsider also promises immortality, but loses fewer of the drawbacks of mortality. If this caster wants to go the machine route you could stat them up as a Warforged (Eberron Campaign Setting/Monster Manual III), or simply give them the construct type with the living construct subtype.
Cherubaddon 04-08-08, 09:41 AM	But let's compare a Wiz 3/Clr 3/True Necro 8 (CR 14) to, let's say, a Wiz 9/Clr 3 Lich (CR 14)-- remember, the OP said he wanted some divine spellcasting in there. The True Necro has level 9 Wizard casting, level 9 Cleric casting, level 13 Cleric rebuking, +2 caster level on Necromancy spells, and an 80' Zone of Desecration that only affects allied undead. Plus, he can cast Create Undead 2/day and Create Greater Undead 1/day as a level 16 caster. The lich has level 9 Wizard casting, level 3 Cleric casting, level 3 Cleric casting, and level 3 Cleric rebuking, along with Lich traits. In fact, let's assume Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6 Lich. His spellcasting isn't any better than the True Necro's, he has fewer HD, his rebuking is awful, and he lacks the True Necro's other goodies. As far as I can tell, your argument is fallacious, because you are mixing up a template with a class. The question "to lich or not to lich" has nothing whatsoever to do with the class he will take. So if you want that argument to hold, let's rather compare the two classes on an equal footing: Wiz3/Clr3/True Nec8 with a Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic8: So, the True Necromancer has Rebuke undead (which, thanks to losing 3 levels, is waaay behind, so probably worthless anyway, especially if the PCs are not undead), Create undead (with a ten minute casting time, that is a downtime spell; if a BBEG has to use that in combat, that means he is losing), a desecration effect (the spell is good, but it's also 2nd level), and a CL increase for necromantic effects (certainly a good ability). The Mystic Theurge has no Rebuking, but AN ADDITIONAL CASTER LEVEL for both of his classes. In other words, he can use desecrate something like a dozen times per day if he really cares that much, and replaces the +2 CL for necromancy with a +1 CL for ALL spells. Oh, and the cleric can actually take a useful domain (since he doesn't need Death), say, Deathbound or Undeath or such. However, I do agree that the wizard/archivist thing is probably the way to go. Oh, and about immortality: Why do you even care? Being a lich is cool, but you're the DM, so if you just say that he brewed a special potion or somesuch, just say that he has lived a thousand years and no-one will contradict you. You don't need a rule justification for something that is essentially just flavour. -Cherubaddon
JasonOrlandoHawk 04-08-08, 01:18 PM	I don't have my books in front of me, but I have an alternate route if Undead isn't very appealing: Dragon Magazine #354: Ancient PC's. It's got several ways to have a character live 1,000+ years, without gaining templates or subtypes. There is one option that may suit you particularly well: Apostle of the Forgotten. Basically, the character is a servant of a dead/forgotten god (reason for your divine caster levels). As for the persecution of Arcane casters... how did the god die? If it appeals to you, I'd suggest hunting down that magazine. It's worth it for that article alone.
The_Black_Hand 04-08-08, 03:02 PM	I dare you to find it. I'm looking at LM right now, and it's not here. It's not in Heroes of Horror either. The closest I can find (from the X Stat to Y Bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) thread) is Beauty's Bounty (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a), which only affects your level 1 HP and is only available to Fey. I know there are feats, I will look through my books when I go to my DMs house. We play next weekend.
CrimsonDeath 04-08-08, 05:35 PM	As far as I can tell, your argument is fallacious, because you are mixing up a template with a class. The question "to lich or not to lich" has nothing whatsoever to do with the class he will take. In that case, you misunderstood my argument. I'm saying to make the character a True Necro instead of a Lich.