Post/Author/DateTime	Post
robot flux 08-16-07, 01:51 PM	Greetings, I am currently running a campaing (part I), where a party of 1-3 level characters are taking a cursed dagger to be dispelled of its eeeeeevilness. When they finally meet the cleric (in a city), I have thought of the following; upon taking the dagger to the altar, the cleric casts "dispel evil" upon it. The dagger starts glowing and a sudden burst of energy knocks everyone prone and a power of some sort starts talking to the people before the "epic" fight. Two problems; 1) I want the cleric to be knocked down completely. He is lvl 10 and I do not wish him to be concious when they meet/fight their CR 2 "epic enemy". How to make this "realistic"? Ok, so the burst makes the cleric fly to the wall and fall unconcious. I do not wish him to be a deus ex machina in this fight. 2) Which to choose as an "epic monster"? The imp or the quasit? Both seem to be CR 2 with some minor differences and that the imp is a "devil" and the quasit a "demon". Both seem interesting enough, but could someone ellaborate their "differences"? Some "in-depth" knowledge? Or does it just come down to the fact whether I want to use demons/devils in later storylines?
Dragonsblood 08-16-07, 02:26 PM	This fight isn't going to be epic. Both of them have 13 HP and not much offense, and while the DR and invisibility will help, both of those monsters will get creamed by the PCs if they're alone. You might want to throw 2 or 3 of them at the party, especially if this is the first fight of the day. I'm not sure what 1-3 level characters means. Is there one level 3 character? Or a group of characters who range from levels 1 to 3?
robot flux 08-16-07, 02:34 PM	3/5 will be 3 1 will be 2 1 will be 1 Then, I would automatically just give the critter max hps, 24 that is. What would make a good "side kick" for such a creature?
Hagroth 08-16-07, 02:37 PM	In order: 1. I suggest that the cleric tell everyone, "Stand back, this may be dangerous!" Let the cleric do a whole chanting ritual to build up the suspense and when he completes the ritual, there is an explosion of darkness. The PCs should be back far enough that they only get knocked down, but the 10th level cleric gets KB to the wall and is knocked unconscious. 2. I have to agree with robot. Only 1 Quasit or Imp won't be much of a challenge. Add more than 1 or increase the power of the 1 foe (perhaps the evil dagger gives him his additional power and hit points?). It would help for later storylines to choose a demon or devil, but certainly wouldn't be a deal breaker if you wanted to change later. Good Luck!
robot flux 08-16-07, 02:47 PM	In order: but the 10th level cleric gets KB to the wall and is knocked unconscious. What's a KB? Ok, so if I make the imp/quasit at full hp...sidekicks, anyone? Something genuine, yet scaaaary :)
Witch 08-16-07, 02:51 PM	I suggest you use a bearded devil, a barghest or a greater barghest. These will be more of a challenge. A CR2 is not going to challenge your party. Not as an "epic fight".
robot flux 08-16-07, 03:01 PM	I suggest you use a bearded devil, a barghest or a greater barghest. These will be more of a challenge. Upon looking at the stats of these, I fear my party will lose this. True enough, maybe the CR2 won't be of a challenge. Since this is only the first part of campaign part x, a CR5-7 will just kick their asses. DR 5/magic, na-ah (with over 45hp). Here's the party btw; Aasimar cleric lvl 1 human fighter lvl 3 (str,dex,con ~10, wis,int,cha ~14, not a typical fighter i.e) tiefling rogue 2 gnome wizard 3 ½-elf barbarian 3 Nor do I want them to get away tooooo easily. A good "last RP fear session", where the "BBEG" will seek upon revenge and that more evil is to come and muahahha-you-will-all-die! (though it might lose) I am still strongly leaning towards the imp/quasit with full hp. With the appearance it could serve as a good "story-line-continuer" (devils??demons?!)
Hagroth 08-16-07, 03:42 PM	What's a KB? Sorry, KnockBack. I also play RuneQuest and they have rules for Intentional Knock Back (like a bull rush) or knock back from an attack. In RuneQuest, the damage is 1d6 per 1 meters if you run into something (like a wall), but, as GM, you can simply state that the cleric is unconscious. And I goofed on my previous post when I agreed with robot, it was dragonsblood who suggested tougher opponents. If you don't like Witch's idea for something tougher, I suggest expanding the Imp or Quasit. Maybe it has more than max hit points or it can cast Mirror Image 1/day to help fool the characters or it can grow spikes that causes a successful melee hit by a PC to take 1d3 damage in return or can unfurl a 10' long tongue to get an additional attack with reach.... Make up some other weird things for it. If during the battle, if the PCs seem to be having an easy time of it, secretly extend the BBEG's life (not too much) and if it seems he's easily overpowering the PCs, then reduce his HPs a bit. Good Luck!
Movanic 08-16-07, 04:02 PM	Considering the offensive power (or more correctly, the lack thereof) of an Imp or Quasit, I would add my voice to the option of having your party face more than one foe. For the devil (Baatezu Berk!) side, I would go with 2 Imps and a Spinagon - if you make the Spinagon target the higher level foes, there should be little risk of an actual TPK with a great deal of fear in your players' hearts. For the demon (Tanar'ri) side, I suggest 2 Dretches and a Quasit - have the Quasit hang back and direct the stupid Dretches. This makes it so the Dretches can be believable when they do anything resembling tactics and makes it easier for your Quasit to "run away" so as to come back and torment you heroes again. :evil:
Magnus029 08-16-07, 04:12 PM	I think if you would advance the HD by 2 and have the dagger focus work as a augmented summoning for this purpose would be a really good start to toughen the encounter, the + to strength wont mean to much but the con will, including more HP and upping the save DC on the poison. Also advancing it 2 HD will increase Base Attack, give it one Ability (putting in dex increases Attack and AC) more skill points. So basically 2 more HD = more HP +3 to hit (2 from HD and 1 from higher dex) Augment Summoning 2 more HP per HD +2 more to Poison Save tail damage goes to 1d4 +2 This adjustment would increase the CR to 3 I might consider going to 4 with the Augment summoning... especially if you max out the HP, which would be 50 at 5HD with the Augment feat. Oh, by the way I based this off Imp which I am partial to.
Dragonsblood 08-16-07, 05:18 PM	The more I think about it, the more I find imps and quasits to be underwhelming as a boss fight. They're funny little tricky creatures, they're not the type to insight fear into your heart. Here's the party btw; Aasimar cleric lvl 1 human fighter lvl 3 (str,dex,con ~10, wis,int,cha ~14, not a typical fighter i.e) tiefling rogue 2 gnome wizard 3 ½-elf barbarian 3 All of your PCs are ECL 3 (except the Aasimar which is ECL 2). The level 2 and 1 PCs took powerful races with level adjustments. You shouldn't look at them as level 1 and 2 PCs. Your group clearly isn't optimized, so you can take that into account, but a CR 2 encounter is NOT a boss fight for this group. Infact, it only qualifies as easy to slightly challenging. Upon looking at the stats of these, I fear my party will lose this. True enough, maybe the CR2 won't be of a challenge. Since this is only the first part of campaign part x, a CR5-7 will just kick their asses. DR 5/magic, na-ah (with over 45hp). A bearded devil would be a hard challenge (just don't have him use his summon ability, because if successful it would TPK these guys). BBEGs are supposed to be more deadly than your average encounter, so a bearded devil would be completely appropriate. His high HP would ensure that he lasts a few rounds. If you want to make it a little easier, give them some silver weapons before hand (it doesn't have DR magic, it's DR silver or good). Maybe the cleric suspects devils, and he knows that silver weapons hurt them more so he gives the PCs silver weapons or some silversheen.
robot flux 08-17-07, 02:16 AM	For the demon (Tanar'ri) side, I suggest 2 Dretches and a Quasit - have the Quasit hang back and direct the stupid Dretches. I actually thought of this myself either (upon checking out the MM). A bearded devil would be a hard challenge (just don't have him use his summon ability, because if successful it would TPK these guys). BBEGs are supposed to be more deadly than your average encounter, so a bearded devil would be completely appropriate. This is also a good point! Thanks for all the tips! :)
CroBob 08-17-07, 02:46 AM	The simple answer, if you're set on an imp or quasit, is to advance it. Give it more devil-juice. I wouldn't recommend class levels, just use the imp as a base creature and add more hit dice and give him an extra two or three cool abilities. Cool abilities, not total "**** the PCs" abilities. Otherwise I'd suggest a kyton. My last campaign had a group of... I think five level 2-3 fighting a kyton, and it was wicked awesome.
Orchomenos 08-17-07, 10:03 AM	What about a Flamebrother Salamander, CR 3. It could attempt to grapple and constrict the gnome or the 1st level aasimar. Even the fighter with STR 10 would make a good choice. The good point is this could be a long-term foe: next time they face it, it'll be an Average Salamander, then at higher level, a Noble Salamander. An Hell Hound could be great as well. As for the cleric, what if the Dagger casted a Transposition instead of a Summoning? With a spellcraft check, the PC could realises the cleric has been sent to the plane where the evil outsider is coming from, rescuing the cleric would become a good long-term quest. About creature with DR/Magic, since you're in a temple, you could easily find Oils of magic weapons. A Barghest could be cool, he could appear in place of the cleric, and the temple guards and low-level clerics would try to kill it, but be ripped off, and eventually eaten by the Barghest. Before dying, a cleric NPC could tell to grab some Oils of Magic Weapon...