BBEG Opinions Needed. [Archive] - Wizards Community

BBEG Opinions Needed. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alynn
07-03-05, 04:07 PM Ok, I know I posted this before, but it fell off the pages, cuz I can't find it... but anyway.

Background: Ras Nameima is a Juvenile blue dragon with a prechance toward religion, mostly because after destroying a caravan of priests of hextor (and finding nothing but books) he decided to read a few, which got him interested. He knew the only way to really get what he wanted was to actually go to the populated areas and learn.

He stole a polymorph wand from his older brother changed himself to human form and made his way into the church of Hextor. Eventually making his way to 15th level, but his high charasma and charm made him a natural for the political realm of the Council of Dar'loh (a religious orginazation which for all intents and purposes is in charge of The Known World, although each seperate town and city has their own government, the council's religious ties make it the strongest political force, it is made up of each of the main churches, with the High Priest of the council, being voted in, currently the church of Pelor holds the title). He is actually the youngest (his supposed human years old) to ever hold a position on the council (as High Priest of Hextor). He uses his position to gain wealth, and more power.

His brother after a few years discovered that some of his treasure was missing, and went looking for his brother. Using what he found in Ras's cave he narrowed down his search to Hextor churches, that he began to destroy, Ras knew he could use it to his advantage, and swore as the High Priest of Hextor, he would rid the world of the heritic dragon. Ras then returned home to his brother's lair where battle took place, because of Ras's clerical abilities, matched with his dragon prowess, he destroyed his brother. Their parents then disowned Ras, and forbade him from coming back to their territory in the Sun Valley. He then returned to his place in Dar'loh. Regarded as a hero of the Church.

Ras grew bored rather quickly (about about 4 years on the council), and decided that he wanted the giant gold holy symbols that most of the Dar'loh churches had above their altars. He hired a band of hobgoblins to steal them (the hobgoblins are using the money to fund their training to start the second Race War, but that's a secondary plot line we don't need to get into right now). He also begain his plot to frame a gnomish alchemist for the deeds (Harmon the alchemist. has discovered a poison that given enough dosage will put dragons asleep, he also has just invented firepowder (gunpowder), which the horde wants to help them defeat the humans and elves).

Eventually he will be discovered as the one behind everything, and the PC's will eventually get to him, and hopefully kill him. I'm just not exactly sure on the CR for the guy, I remember last time I discussed this people said he was only about a 15-18, while others said 23 or so. But since it fell off I wanted more opinions, plus I have him completely fleshed out with all skills and stats and feats done. So here we go witht he stat block. I am only doing his dragon form for now, because that is what the PC's will be dealing with for the final battle. His human form is similar, with 15's as his physical ability scores. This is not accounting for any magical protection he may be wearing, I have yet to determine what his human form's equipment list is, safe to assume any RoP's he may be wearing he will be wearing in dragon form as well.

Ras Nameima, Large Blue Dragon (juvenile) 15th Level Cleric
CR: ???
HD: (15d12)+(15d8)+150 (My total HP: 324)
Init: +6
Speed: 40ft, Burrow 20ft, fly 150ft (poor)
AC: 26 (+2 Dex, -1 Size, +15 Natual) Touch: 11 FF: 24
BaB/Grapple: +26/+36
Attack: +31 melee (3d6+6, bite)
Full Attack: +31 melee (3d6+6, bite), +29 melee (2d6+3, 2 claws), +29 melee (1d6+3, 2 wings), +29 melee (1d8+3, tail)
Space/Reach: 10'/5' (10' with bite)
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Create/Destroy Water, Sound Immitation, Spells, Rebuke/Command Undead 7/day, Smite 1/day
Special Qualities: Darkvision 120', Blind sense 60', Keen Senses, Immune to Electricity, sleep, and paralysis, low-light vision
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Saves: Fort: +23 Reflex: +16 Will: +23
Stat: STR:23 Dex:15 CON:21 INT:19 WIS:20 CHA:19
Skills and Feats: +34 Bluff, +20 Concentration, +35 Diplomacy, +30 Hide, +36 Intimidate, +29 Knowlege (Religion), +35 Listen, +14 Search, +37 Sense Motive, +24 Spellcraft;
Cleave, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Craft Wand, Craft Wonderous Item, Eshew Materials, Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Initive, Improved Natural Armor, Improved natural Attack (Claw, Bite), Leadership, Multiattack, Negotiator, Power Attack, Stealthy, Wingover (NOTE: I didn't include the cleric base feats.)
Breath Weapon (Su): 80' Line 8d8, Reflex DC 22 for half
Create/Destroy Water: 3/day Caster Level 1, Will DC 19
Sound Immitation: Can mimic sound or voice it has heard. Will DC 19 to detect the ruse.
Rebuke/Command Undead (Su): 7/day As 15th level Cleric 2d6+19 turn damage

Spells: As 1st Level Sorcerer, 15th Level Cleric
Sorcerer Spells Known (5/4; save DC 14+ Spell Level):
0--Acid Splash, Daze, Flare, Touch of Fatigue
1--Protection from Chaos, Protection from Good;
Cleric Spells Known (6/7+1/6+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/3+1/2+1/1+1; save DC 15+Spell Level) Domains: Destruction, Strength

Ok so as you can see, this guy is decked out. Now if you go just by his HD, he is just about equivilent to a CR 19 Very Old dragon, but most dragons don't have this kind of access to devine magic.

Anyway, if you would I would like critiques, and your opinion of the effective CR of this guy. I built him from scratch, so if you see a math error let me know so I can fix it.

Thanks
VirgilCaine
07-03-05, 05:09 PM Take the class levels and add that number to the CR of the dragon. It's that simple.
WCH
07-03-05, 06:34 PM Indeed. CR 23. 8 for Juve, 15 for Cleric.
Vaelan
07-03-05, 06:54 PM CR 16. (technically 15.5)

Cleric is a nonassociated class for a dragon since it does not progress its racial spellcasting. Nonassociated classes only add 1/2 their level to the creature's CR until the number of class levels equals the number of racial hitdice, at which point later class levels each add 1 to the creature's CR. All of this can be found on page 294 of the 3.5 Monster Manual.

This may not seem right, but that is because the CRs for dragons are too low.
Alynn
07-03-05, 07:19 PM Again it ranges from 16 to a 23 for the CR... if I average them, it comes out to about a 19.5, or a 20. Which could be closer to the truth. I tend to disagree with the 16 CR, just that if a 15th level cleric is a 15, adding 15 dragon HD, plus all the other dragon abilities would only raise it's challenge by one a little hard to swallow.

However remember I also want a critique on the concept of the BBEG as well. Kinda a two parter if you will :).

But please continue.
Alynn
07-05-05, 03:30 AM Alynn gestures, and utters the words 'Raise Thread'.

Sorry, I had to do it at least once.
The_Elder
07-05-05, 04:11 AM It depends if you concider cleric an Asocated class or not

if yes the beast is CR23
if no the beast is CR16(15.5)

see P294 in the 3.5 MM

The:dice:Elder
Bort333
07-05-05, 04:23 AM Best thing to do is to compare it to a Balor. Can it beat a Balor pretty easily? Then make it 23.

If the Balor pounds it, make it CR 16.

Ta-DA!
Carn Vandoril
07-05-05, 08:00 AM Best thing to do is to compare it to a Balor. Can it beat a Balor pretty easily? Then make it 23.

If the Balor pounds it, make it CR 16.

Ta-DA!

Now that's an original thought, Monster Arena before you let them lose on your players. :D
cambric
07-05-05, 09:50 AM First, the CR: if I had created this guy and wanted to make sure he's as tough as I believe you want him to be, then he's 22-23 CR. Now, if you focus on his Dragon Abilities, once the party catches up to him, and forget most of the Clerical Spells, then 16ish is close...though, dragons CR's are way too low.

Several ways you could do this, which I liked Bort33's idea :clap:, is to take the PC's sheets and "fight" the dragon in the way you know they will...and use the dragon at it's most powerful...how does it end up? Adjust from there...if you want a 19ish type of battle, then use the ability and spells enough to get it there, etc...*(see below for adjustments).

Second, the story: I like!! :clap: The only issues, and they are minor, are the adult dragons. They are evil, that's a given...now, the younger battles the older and wins...why would the parents disown him? You could argue he stole part of the brother's treasure, but these are EVIL dragons...the stongest shall survive! I would expect the parents, if they were "together", to support the younger, for he has proven he's smarter and stronger.

The spells: Which brings us to Hextor. My way of understanding spells from the gods are the lower level spells are given to the clerics by "agents" of the god, once you reach 7th level spells, then it's usually the god him/her self that give them out...you have the dragon casting 8th level spells...which would be accurate of course, but wouldn't Hextor have a say in the final battle?

My point for the comment about adjusting the battle: If the PC's are getting their butts handed to them by the dragon, you could "justify", if you wanted, that the dragon suddenly doesn't have his 7th-8th level spells...or even lower if you needed...that Hextor has decided that the dragon needs to "prove" himself worthy, on his own, to earn the "high priest" title. OR if the PC's are just rolling over this dragon, then Hextor can "step" in a bit to help him out...you do have "options" to make sure it's a "grand" battle.

Cam
dongol
07-05-05, 10:30 AM A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

That means that those cleric class levels aren't associated. Mr. Ras over there should have a CR of 16 by the RAW. However, I agree... it should be more than 1 higher than a level 15 cleric. I say go with the average of 20, because a CR of 23 is definitely too high for what you're describing, IMO, but the CRs for dragons are, as a couple people have said, much too low.
Chobemaster
07-05-05, 10:51 AM Second, the story: I like!! :clap: The only issues, and they are minor, are the adult dragons. They are evil, that's a given...now, the younger battles the older and wins...why would the parents disown him? You could argue he stole part of the brother's treasure, but these are EVIL dragons...the stongest shall survive! I would expect the parents, if they were "together", to support the younger, for he has proven he's smarter and stronger.

Cam

It could be for "cheating" by using powers from a human god not being worthy of draconic status. But it doesn't necessarily follow that evil parents accept fratricide. Evil alignment doesn't inherently overwhelm family or other loyalties.
Twisted Puppy
07-05-05, 11:19 AM Give Ras a couple of levels of the Disciple of Tiamat PrC, from the Draconomicon. That turns his innate casting levels to cleric, and avoids the whole problem with two different classes of spellcasting. His CR could still be 23 (8 Juvenile Blue Dragon/Cleric 13/DiscT 2).

This gives him status as a cleric among evil dragons. If he were worshipping a human god, other dragons would look at him askance, if not actively mock him. If he were interested in religion, he certainly could have found an older disciple to teach him. If it is important to your story line that he be somehow tied in with clerics of Hextor, that isn't a problem. He is aiding them, though of course he has his own plans to eliminate them once they have served his (and Tiamat's) purpose...
Alynn
07-05-05, 11:56 AM Which is why I used Lawful Evil Dragons in this case. The blue dragon family in question are the ones the Rule the Roost, sort to speak, of the Sun Valley, making the eldest son (the now dead one) the heir to the throne. They have a whole kingdom of dragons thing going there in the Sun valley, and Ras just f'd it all up.

Secondly, Blue dragons CAN cast clerical spells, as arcane spells, at the bottom of their Age chart it states that they can cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Evil, and Law domains as arcane spells (although I think that is a mistype, and it should be earth since they are earth dragons).

It is fairly important that he follow one of the "human" gods, since he is on the council, and the High Priest of the Council (Talon Goldenhair High Priest of Pelor) hired the PC's to find the holy symbols that were stolen, and who is behind it. I've always been a fan of full circle type stories, not that this is completely, but I like stories that end where they start.

It will be eventually discovered that he is the BBEG, and the PC's either A) bring the info to Talon (their smartest move) or confront him directly. Mostly because the scene of Ras using his wand on himself and turning into a blue dragon in the middle of the council chambers and flying through the roof while the PC's go WTF just seems like much fun to me.

AS far as the last battle goes, Hextor wouldn't get involved for a couple of reasons, 1)There will (by that time) be a high level priest in the party agains him, if Hextor steps in, so will his goddess, also, in the party is a Palidin of Hieronous, if Hextor steps in I KNOW he will. Right there will be a 2 to 1 ratio. Heck there may even be a chance Tiamat would step in against Hextor from taking a promising dragon cleric away from HER cause. This is probably happening anyway, the PC's will just not see it.

Secondly, I was actually considering letting the father get involved (the blue dragon father), after capturing the PC's his father will make them promise that they can do what they want to his son, you just can't take any treasure with you, and he will give them passage through his land. And if things go really bad, Dues Ex, while not my favorite ending, epic type dragon battles are always fun. Especially if the son kills the father but it weakened enough that the Party can finally take him out.

I don't have the Draconomicon yet, although one of my players does, I'll see if he will let me borrow it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alynn 07-03-05, 04:07 PM	Ok, I know I posted this before, but it fell off the pages, cuz I can't find it... but anyway. Background: Ras Nameima is a Juvenile blue dragon with a prechance toward religion, mostly because after destroying a caravan of priests of hextor (and finding nothing but books) he decided to read a few, which got him interested. He knew the only way to really get what he wanted was to actually go to the populated areas and learn. He stole a polymorph wand from his older brother changed himself to human form and made his way into the church of Hextor. Eventually making his way to 15th level, but his high charasma and charm made him a natural for the political realm of the Council of Dar'loh (a religious orginazation which for all intents and purposes is in charge of The Known World, although each seperate town and city has their own government, the council's religious ties make it the strongest political force, it is made up of each of the main churches, with the High Priest of the council, being voted in, currently the church of Pelor holds the title). He is actually the youngest (his supposed human years old) to ever hold a position on the council (as High Priest of Hextor). He uses his position to gain wealth, and more power. His brother after a few years discovered that some of his treasure was missing, and went looking for his brother. Using what he found in Ras's cave he narrowed down his search to Hextor churches, that he began to destroy, Ras knew he could use it to his advantage, and swore as the High Priest of Hextor, he would rid the world of the heritic dragon. Ras then returned home to his brother's lair where battle took place, because of Ras's clerical abilities, matched with his dragon prowess, he destroyed his brother. Their parents then disowned Ras, and forbade him from coming back to their territory in the Sun Valley. He then returned to his place in Dar'loh. Regarded as a hero of the Church. Ras grew bored rather quickly (about about 4 years on the council), and decided that he wanted the giant gold holy symbols that most of the Dar'loh churches had above their altars. He hired a band of hobgoblins to steal them (the hobgoblins are using the money to fund their training to start the second Race War, but that's a secondary plot line we don't need to get into right now). He also begain his plot to frame a gnomish alchemist for the deeds (Harmon the alchemist. has discovered a poison that given enough dosage will put dragons asleep, he also has just invented firepowder (gunpowder), which the horde wants to help them defeat the humans and elves). Eventually he will be discovered as the one behind everything, and the PC's will eventually get to him, and hopefully kill him. I'm just not exactly sure on the CR for the guy, I remember last time I discussed this people said he was only about a 15-18, while others said 23 or so. But since it fell off I wanted more opinions, plus I have him completely fleshed out with all skills and stats and feats done. So here we go witht he stat block. I am only doing his dragon form for now, because that is what the PC's will be dealing with for the final battle. His human form is similar, with 15's as his physical ability scores. This is not accounting for any magical protection he may be wearing, I have yet to determine what his human form's equipment list is, safe to assume any RoP's he may be wearing he will be wearing in dragon form as well. Ras Nameima, Large Blue Dragon (juvenile) 15th Level Cleric CR: ??? HD: (15d12)+(15d8)+150 (My total HP: 324) Init: +6 Speed: 40ft, Burrow 20ft, fly 150ft (poor) AC: 26 (+2 Dex, -1 Size, +15 Natual) Touch: 11 FF: 24 BaB/Grapple: +26/+36 Attack: +31 melee (3d6+6, bite) Full Attack: +31 melee (3d6+6, bite), +29 melee (2d6+3, 2 claws), +29 melee (1d6+3, 2 wings), +29 melee (1d8+3, tail) Space/Reach: 10'/5' (10' with bite) Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Create/Destroy Water, Sound Immitation, Spells, Rebuke/Command Undead 7/day, Smite 1/day Special Qualities: Darkvision 120', Blind sense 60', Keen Senses, Immune to Electricity, sleep, and paralysis, low-light vision Alignment: Lawful Evil Saves: Fort: +23 Reflex: +16 Will: +23 Stat: STR:23 Dex:15 CON:21 INT:19 WIS:20 CHA:19 Skills and Feats: +34 Bluff, +20 Concentration, +35 Diplomacy, +30 Hide, +36 Intimidate, +29 Knowlege (Religion), +35 Listen, +14 Search, +37 Sense Motive, +24 Spellcraft; Cleave, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Craft Wand, Craft Wonderous Item, Eshew Materials, Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Initive, Improved Natural Armor, Improved natural Attack (Claw, Bite), Leadership, Multiattack, Negotiator, Power Attack, Stealthy, Wingover (NOTE: I didn't include the cleric base feats.) Breath Weapon (Su): 80' Line 8d8, Reflex DC 22 for half Create/Destroy Water: 3/day Caster Level 1, Will DC 19 Sound Immitation: Can mimic sound or voice it has heard. Will DC 19 to detect the ruse. Rebuke/Command Undead (Su): 7/day As 15th level Cleric 2d6+19 turn damage Spells: As 1st Level Sorcerer, 15th Level Cleric Sorcerer Spells Known (5/4; save DC 14+ Spell Level): 0--Acid Splash, Daze, Flare, Touch of Fatigue 1--Protection from Chaos, Protection from Good; Cleric Spells Known (6/7+1/6+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/3+1/2+1/1+1; save DC 15+Spell Level) Domains: Destruction, Strength Ok so as you can see, this guy is decked out. Now if you go just by his HD, he is just about equivilent to a CR 19 Very Old dragon, but most dragons don't have this kind of access to devine magic. Anyway, if you would I would like critiques, and your opinion of the effective CR of this guy. I built him from scratch, so if you see a math error let me know so I can fix it. Thanks
VirgilCaine 07-03-05, 05:09 PM	Take the class levels and add that number to the CR of the dragon. It's that simple.
WCH 07-03-05, 06:34 PM	Indeed. CR 23. 8 for Juve, 15 for Cleric.
Vaelan 07-03-05, 06:54 PM	CR 16. (technically 15.5) Cleric is a nonassociated class for a dragon since it does not progress its racial spellcasting. Nonassociated classes only add 1/2 their level to the creature's CR until the number of class levels equals the number of racial hitdice, at which point later class levels each add 1 to the creature's CR. All of this can be found on page 294 of the 3.5 Monster Manual. This may not seem right, but that is because the CRs for dragons are too low.
Alynn 07-03-05, 07:19 PM	Again it ranges from 16 to a 23 for the CR... if I average them, it comes out to about a 19.5, or a 20. Which could be closer to the truth. I tend to disagree with the 16 CR, just that if a 15th level cleric is a 15, adding 15 dragon HD, plus all the other dragon abilities would only raise it's challenge by one a little hard to swallow. However remember I also want a critique on the concept of the BBEG as well. Kinda a two parter if you will :). But please continue.
Alynn 07-05-05, 03:30 AM	Alynn gestures, and utters the words 'Raise Thread'. Sorry, I had to do it at least once.
The_Elder 07-05-05, 04:11 AM	It depends if you concider cleric an Asocated class or not if yes the beast is CR23 if no the beast is CR16(15.5) see P294 in the 3.5 MM The:dice:Elder
Bort333 07-05-05, 04:23 AM	Best thing to do is to compare it to a Balor. Can it beat a Balor pretty easily? Then make it 23. If the Balor pounds it, make it CR 16. Ta-DA!
Carn Vandoril 07-05-05, 08:00 AM	Best thing to do is to compare it to a Balor. Can it beat a Balor pretty easily? Then make it 23. If the Balor pounds it, make it CR 16. Ta-DA! Now that's an original thought, Monster Arena before you let them lose on your players. :D
cambric 07-05-05, 09:50 AM	First, the CR: if I had created this guy and wanted to make sure he's as tough as I believe you want him to be, then he's 22-23 CR. Now, if you focus on his Dragon Abilities, once the party catches up to him, and forget most of the Clerical Spells, then 16ish is close...though, dragons CR's are way too low. Several ways you could do this, which I liked Bort33's idea :clap:, is to take the PC's sheets and "fight" the dragon in the way you know they will...and use the dragon at it's most powerful...how does it end up? Adjust from there...if you want a 19ish type of battle, then use the ability and spells enough to get it there, etc...*(see below for adjustments). Second, the story: I like!! :clap: The only issues, and they are minor, are the adult dragons. They are evil, that's a given...now, the younger battles the older and wins...why would the parents disown him? You could argue he stole part of the brother's treasure, but these are EVIL dragons...the stongest shall survive! I would expect the parents, if they were "together", to support the younger, for he has proven he's smarter and stronger. The spells: Which brings us to Hextor. My way of understanding spells from the gods are the lower level spells are given to the clerics by "agents" of the god, once you reach 7th level spells, then it's usually the god him/her self that give them out...you have the dragon casting 8th level spells...which would be accurate of course, but wouldn't Hextor have a say in the final battle? My point for the comment about adjusting the battle: If the PC's are getting their butts handed to them by the dragon, you could "justify", if you wanted, that the dragon suddenly doesn't have his 7th-8th level spells...or even lower if you needed...that Hextor has decided that the dragon needs to "prove" himself worthy, on his own, to earn the "high priest" title. OR if the PC's are just rolling over this dragon, then Hextor can "step" in a bit to help him out...you do have "options" to make sure it's a "grand" battle. Cam
dongol 07-05-05, 10:30 AM	A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. That means that those cleric class levels aren't associated. Mr. Ras over there should have a CR of 16 by the RAW. However, I agree... it should be more than 1 higher than a level 15 cleric. I say go with the average of 20, because a CR of 23 is definitely too high for what you're describing, IMO, but the CRs for dragons are, as a couple people have said, much too low.
Chobemaster 07-05-05, 10:51 AM	Second, the story: I like!! :clap: The only issues, and they are minor, are the adult dragons. They are evil, that's a given...now, the younger battles the older and wins...why would the parents disown him? You could argue he stole part of the brother's treasure, but these are EVIL dragons...the stongest shall survive! I would expect the parents, if they were "together", to support the younger, for he has proven he's smarter and stronger. Cam It could be for "cheating" by using powers from a human god not being worthy of draconic status. But it doesn't necessarily follow that evil parents accept fratricide. Evil alignment doesn't inherently overwhelm family or other loyalties.
Twisted Puppy 07-05-05, 11:19 AM	Give Ras a couple of levels of the Disciple of Tiamat PrC, from the Draconomicon. That turns his innate casting levels to cleric, and avoids the whole problem with two different classes of spellcasting. His CR could still be 23 (8 Juvenile Blue Dragon/Cleric 13/DiscT 2). This gives him status as a cleric among evil dragons. If he were worshipping a human god, other dragons would look at him askance, if not actively mock him. If he were interested in religion, he certainly could have found an older disciple to teach him. If it is important to your story line that he be somehow tied in with clerics of Hextor, that isn't a problem. He is aiding them, though of course he has his own plans to eliminate them once they have served his (and Tiamat's) purpose...
Alynn 07-05-05, 11:56 AM	Which is why I used Lawful Evil Dragons in this case. The blue dragon family in question are the ones the Rule the Roost, sort to speak, of the Sun Valley, making the eldest son (the now dead one) the heir to the throne. They have a whole kingdom of dragons thing going there in the Sun valley, and Ras just f'd it all up. Secondly, Blue dragons CAN cast clerical spells, as arcane spells, at the bottom of their Age chart it states that they can cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Evil, and Law domains as arcane spells (although I think that is a mistype, and it should be earth since they are earth dragons). It is fairly important that he follow one of the "human" gods, since he is on the council, and the High Priest of the Council (Talon Goldenhair High Priest of Pelor) hired the PC's to find the holy symbols that were stolen, and who is behind it. I've always been a fan of full circle type stories, not that this is completely, but I like stories that end where they start. It will be eventually discovered that he is the BBEG, and the PC's either A) bring the info to Talon (their smartest move) or confront him directly. Mostly because the scene of Ras using his wand on himself and turning into a blue dragon in the middle of the council chambers and flying through the roof while the PC's go WTF just seems like much fun to me. AS far as the last battle goes, Hextor wouldn't get involved for a couple of reasons, 1)There will (by that time) be a high level priest in the party agains him, if Hextor steps in, so will his goddess, also, in the party is a Palidin of Hieronous, if Hextor steps in I KNOW he will. Right there will be a 2 to 1 ratio. Heck there may even be a chance Tiamat would step in against Hextor from taking a promising dragon cleric away from HER cause. This is probably happening anyway, the PC's will just not see it. Secondly, I was actually considering letting the father get involved (the blue dragon father), after capturing the PC's his father will make them promise that they can do what they want to his son, you just can't take any treasure with you, and he will give them passage through his land. And if things go really bad, Dues Ex, while not my favorite ending, epic type dragon battles are always fun. Especially if the son kills the father but it weakened enough that the Party can finally take him out. I don't have the Draconomicon yet, although one of my players does, I'll see if he will let me borrow it.