Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 09-17-07, 01:48 PM	*** (Final update in the last post) *** I'm in the middle of an adventure I had to abruptly end last night (we have to end at a certain time). The PCs are pretty close to a fight with the BBEG. Left to his own devices, he tries to harry the PCs and frustrate them. I don't have his exact stats here, but I'll post the jist of his build: The idea is he's a wizard that tries to play on people's fears. His offensive capabilities aren't super powerful, but he has some solid tactial options. The BBEG is 9th level, but is only a 7th level caster. The party is 5th level and includes: Conurer/Master Specialist Cleric (Pelor) Druid Monk Fighter Human Rogue 1/Wizard (Necromancer) 4/Dread Witch 3/Mindbender 1 HP: 44 AC: 17 (+2 Dex, +5 [+1 twilight mithirl shirt]) Spells prepared as far as I remember (using a variant of the spellpoint system). He has access to these spells multiple times per day. His prohibited schools are Evocation and Abjuration. Level 1: Cause Fear, Lesser Acid Orb, Charm Person, Sleep, Grease, and Obscuring Mist Level 2: Web, Scare, Detect Thoughts, Invisibilty, and Melf's Acid Arrow Level 3: Acid Breath, Major Image, Vampiric Touch, and Hold Person Level 4: Fear, Dimension Door, and Greater Invisibility Gear: +1 Twilight mithril shirt Ring of Chameleon Power (+10 hide, Disguise Self at will) Scrolls: Black Tenticles, Gaseous Form Potions: Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Light Wounds x3, Invisibility Anyway, he uses the acid spells primarily as flavor (he had a bloodrot (Heroes of Horror) in his basement that he would feed with liquified people). As a Dread Witch, he has lots of fear abilities. Once per day, he can tack a fear effect (shaken) onto any spell with a visual manifestation. I was thinking of some sort of divide-and-conquer strategies (scare the low Will save PCs and focus on the ones who didn't run). They've encountered him three times so far: When he attacked them with an illusion (to drain some of their spells). When they found him disguised. He lured them into his basement and left, hoping the bloodrot would kill them. Later in the basement after they killed the bloodrot. He had to deminsion door out within one round, as the conjurer cast Iron Bands (similar to Hold Person) on him. I was having a tough time creating him. I want something tough enough to give the PCs a run for their money, but I don't want him to outright slay them. Even still, I think I low-balled the power end of things. Does anybody have any suggestions? Should I add a bit more to him? Perhaps I should have him rest for a day and rememorize his spells. He has access to spells like Black Tenticles (so he won't have to use that scroll), and maybe that's better than Dimension Door for escaping. EDIT: Latest version in 2nd last post (09/20/07)
Lormador 09-17-07, 02:10 PM	Rest and memorize new spells, hire or summon minor minions. Cast greater invisibility on self, send minions into battle. Cast Fear on the morass, the goal is to affect the fighter and hopefully one of the spellcasters with a lucky low save. Hold Person the fighter if he makes his save. Cast Black Tentacles on the remainder of the group, this should shut down the conjurer and hopefully one of the other spellcasters. That leaves an endgame of the monk and probably one of the divine spellcasters. If the monk can see invisible, then we have a problem. If he cannot, target the healer with all available minions and acid attacks, and hopefully force the monk to defend while the healer has to heal himself. The villain is dead if the monk or the fighter gets into melee with him, and the monk will likely save against every single attack. This fight would be a lot more fun if he had access to the 5th level Dominate Person power. That would allow him to Dominate the fighter and use him against the monk, and square off against the other spellcasters in a magical duel. They are high enough level to threaten him with counterspells and dispel magics. You can either give him a few more caster levels or hook him up with some scrolls. I'd recommend the scroll route as it's less likely to mess up the rest of the balance.
Kamin_Majere 09-17-07, 02:59 PM	5 x 5th level characters can walk through this guy. Question... do you want the party to die (or ahve a chance of death) The best bet is to Greater Invisiblity and start trying to get the Fighter Charmed. And have him head directly into the Conjurer and drop him. After that get creative with major Image and allow the Druid/Cleric to waste a turn or two worht of spells on the illusion. At this point (round 2 or 3) the fighter shold have killed/dropped the mage and can either move on to the monk, ot see what the rest of the party is doing about the fighter. If they're still clost together use the Evards scroll to tie most of them up. with Grapple checks. Then start pounting them with acid orbs (while moving around so they cant pinpoint the location the spells are comeing from) If you havent dropped them all or killed them all before the Evards wears off or you run out of spell points then use gaseous form to retreat to a safe area. After a day of rest hunt down the rest that didnt die and kill them off. Only other advice i would say is kill off the Druid quickly if it wild shapes into somethig that can beat your evards grapple then it will give you trouble. So focus on it and then the cleric
GoriceXII 09-17-07, 04:09 PM	Dimension door or some similar spell enables your villain to always make a quick getaway. PCs are usually shocked and unprepared for the use of it, I've found.
RobbyPants 09-17-07, 04:37 PM	Thanks for the replies so far :D Rest and memorize new spells, hire or summon minor minions. Cast greater invisibility on self, send minions into battle. Cast Fear on the morass, the goal is to affect the fighter and hopefully one of the spellcasters with a lucky low save. Hold Person the fighter if he makes his save. Cast Black Tentacles on the remainder of the group, this should shut down the conjurer and hopefully one of the other spellcasters. I had a feeling that would be a good way to go. I forgot to mention that he does have access to Animate Dead, and the PC's have actually only killed 6 HD worth of undead, so I can probably stat up the rest that he could control. 5 x 5th level characters can walk through this guy. Question... do you want the party to die (or ahve a chance of death) Ideally, I want the PCs to win, but I want to give them a run for their money (i.e. a chance of death, espescially if they're stupid). I think you're right that they can chew through them. When they first encountered them, the druid, monk, and fighter were 4th level. They just leveled last night, and the druid has not had a chance to rest for new spells (so she has no level 3 spells prepared). The best bet is to Greater Invisiblity and start trying to get the Fighter Charmed. And have him head directly into the Conjurer and drop him. That could be a good start. After that get creative with major Image and allow the Druid/Cleric to waste a turn or two worht of spells on the illusion. At this point (round 2 or 3) the fighter shold have killed/dropped the mage and can either move on to the monk, ot see what the rest of the party is doing about the fighter. If they're still clost together use the Evards scroll to tie most of them up. with Grapple checks. Then start pounting them with acid orbs (while moving around so they cant pinpoint the location the spells are comeing from) If you havent dropped them all or killed them all before the Evards wears off or you run out of spell points then use gaseous form to retreat to a safe area. After a day of rest hunt down the rest that didnt die and kill them off. Only other advice i would say is kill off the Druid quickly if it wild shapes into somethig that can beat your evards grapple then it will give you trouble. So focus on it and then the cleric For now, I'm curious how the druid will use her wild shape (or if she'll remember it). She's terrible at opimizing characters, and may not pick all that good of a form. As for the Major Image, their first encounter with this guy, he used that spell. He basically got them to chew through a few spells before the Druid's dog figured it out. Dimension door or some similar spell enables your villain to always make a quick getaway. PCs are usually shocked and unprepared for the use of it, I've found. He used Dimension Door to get out of there in the last fight. He was invisible (with Greater Invisibility), but the druid used Fairy Fire to outline him, so he had to get out of there. So now they know about it. New info: So, at this point, I'm planning on having him regroup the rest of the undead that he'd have patrolling the area, rest, and rememorize his spells. I think I'll swap Dimension Door for Evard's Black Tenticles. I'll probably drop Invisibility for another 2nd level spell (I don't have his spellbook handy). Other than that, the spells will probably remain the same. If he has Suggestion (I'm 90% sure it's in his book), I might swap that one out with Major Image to get the fighter on his side. I'm leaning toward sending in some large skeletons and zombies in, and opening up with a Fear spell. Beyond that, I guess I have to play it by ear. A good Suggestion could work great to add one to his numbers and neutralize a PC. The goal isn't to be 100% sure that he can kill the PCs, but rather, to use what he has to his fullest, and see what comes of it. I'm not ever going to outright slay a PC, but I wanted them to have the fear or death, and if that's how the rolls come, then that's what happens. I'm hoping to find a happy medium between constant TPKs and softballing the PCs. I'm hoping I can do a decent enough job statting out NPCs and picking out monsters and traps, and just let the dice fall where they may (i.e. no fudging to save them).
Kamin_Majere 09-17-07, 04:47 PM	Thats the Problem with being the DM. You by default take it easy on the PC's. Theres never a BBEG thats fighting to their full capacity. If so the PC's would always die. it is hard to balance out your desire for them to fear for their characters life and your desire for them to win. Normally i do take it alot easier than what i described on my players, but every now and then i actually go all out and kill some of them. (or attempt to) Sometimes its better to know when your outclassed and run away than it is to stay and try to be brave. i dont know why but 3.X seems to make players "know" they cant be killed. I dont know why this is, but i get the same way. I'll be playing a character and almost get huffy when i start dieing. I was never like that during AD&D. But my advice, and i know it sounds harsh, but try to kill one of them. They are getting to the level where they would be local heroes and have a bit of noteriaty. The Players have also started working on and envisioning these characters future, nothing makes you realize a characters mortality than one of your party members dieing even though the entire group gave it their all.
Cifer 09-17-07, 07:59 PM	The best bet is to Greater Invisiblity and start trying to get the Fighter Charmed. And have him head directly into the Conjurer and drop him. There's an important misconception here: Charm Person makes a person have a new friend - not forget all his old ones. He'd probably try stopping the fight altogether and possibly deal nonlethal damage to someone if that doesn't work, but he wouldn't try to kill his friends.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-18-07, 03:51 AM	Let's give him a few potions: Fox Cunning, Bull's Strength, and the Con counterpart, and, of course, Haste and Blur. And Spider Climb. Greater Invisibility and The six potions as buffs; if he is feeling awesome, add in a Alter Self for Either Troglodyte Form (+6 Nat AC) or a Winged Form. Now, just before combat, he goes Improved Invisible. Then he webs (He's got spider climb active). He Hold Persons, and CdGs as they are helpless. If he can't get off the full round action, he goes for the sneak attack. He might also consider burning the webs for widespread damage. D-Door is a keeper; Use it if he gets cornered again. And he's Mage Armored, right??
FrostyObsitnic 09-18-07, 04:41 AM	If you really want to be mean, you might go with Phantasmal Killer as one of his fourth level spells. It fits well with the theme you have going with him, and though it is a save or die spell, it requires the target to fail two saves to actually die. If you cast it on one of the casters, they'll probably succeed the save to disbelieve, and if you cast it on the fighter he'll probably succeed the fortitude save to avoid dying. He'll still take 3d6 damage, and you'd put the fear of god in him for sure. Don't know if you want to use a possible insta-kill spell, though. That can get dicey.
Cifer 09-18-07, 05:04 AM	If you cast it on one of the casters, they'll probably succeed the save to disbelieve, and if you cast it on the fighter he'll probably succeed the fortitude save to avoid dying. I'd advise casting it on the cleric - two good saves.
buzzsawl 09-18-07, 06:14 AM	You could always use my one of my favorite tactics for surprise attacks. Minor image an undead creature over the actual thing. Make sure the image is slightly larger, flickery and goes through a repetitive non-threatening motion. I don't know why, but there's always a mage in my parties that loves walking through illusions (wheee free grapple!).
1337Ninja 09-18-07, 06:40 AM	Put a Web in a corridor, then cover it over with an illusion of a wall. Make it so that that's the only way for the PCs to continue, and have him throw Charms at the PCs from behind the illusion. They should quickly realise that there's an illusion, Detect Magic, then run through the illusion. Bam. They hit the Web and see him, obviously buffed up with Mage Armour. He throws an Acid Arrow at them, blah, blah, blah. Eventually they might figure out that the figure attacking them is also a Major Image, and that the actual enemy is affected by Greater Invisibility and standing 10 feet behind it. By that time, the spells will have hurt them. As soon as they find out that it's an illusion, have him Dimension Door the hell outta there. He sends undead minions after the PCs from another room and lobs more spells at them. After that, he's out of spells and gets beaten. Basically, they get hurt and waste spells, then they have a fight against undead while being hit by various spells, making it a difficult encounter. Assuming they aren't experienced, they'll also learn that enemies can be very intelligent. Even better, if he Dimension Doors out just before running out of magic, he can be a perpetual thorn in the PCs' side.
RobbyPants 09-18-07, 08:48 AM	Let's give him a few potions: Fox Cunning, Bull's Strength, and the Con counterpart, and, of course, Haste and Blur. And Spider Climb. The only potential issue I have with this is that the BBEG as written didn't have these, and the PCs have encountered him. Granted, they don't know that he doesn't have these, and I suppose I could give him some secret stash in case his house gets invaded (like the PCs already did ;)). D-Door is a keeper; Use it if he gets cornered again. I'm really torn over his 4th level spells. As a necromancy specialist, he will have Fear for sure. Greater Invisibility seems too good to give up, although in light of the druid using Fairy Fire, maybe he'll just stick with Invisibilty to buff and get near them, and just drop it afterward. I think swapping Greater Invisibilty with Evard's Black Tenticles is nothing but a good thing. And he's Mage Armored, right?? Mage Amror: no. He does have a +1 twilight mithril shirt, however. I wanted to give him a static armor boost to AC without having to worry about the possibility of wasting a round to buff if caught off guard. One issue is he doesn't have Shield. I originally put it in his spellbook, but I then decided to make him a specialsit, and had to drop Abjuration as one of the schools. A potion of Shield wouldn't be all that bad of an idea. If you really want to be mean, you might go with Phantasmal Killer as one of his fourth level spells. It fits well with the theme you have going with him, and though it is a save or die spell, it requires the target to fail two saves to actually die. If you cast it on one of the casters, they'll probably succeed the save to disbelieve, and if you cast it on the fighter he'll probably succeed the fortitude save to avoid dying. He'll still take 3d6 damage, and you'd put the fear of god in him for sure. Don't know if you want to use a possible insta-kill spell, though. That can get dicey. Phantasmal Killer is a great idea for both mechanics and flavor. I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it. He doesn't have it in his spellbook, but I guess I could change that...
Empirate 09-19-07, 09:01 AM	You really don't want to give your BBEG something like a +1 Twilight Mithral Shirt. You don't. The thing about Mage Armor is that it lasts the whole freakin' day, or at least for a large enough part of it that your BBEG can be assumed to have it going all the time. As long as the PCs don't actually Dispel it, he'll have it up. The second he detected the PCs, he cast it, simple as that. And why is it you don't want him to have the Mithral baby? Coz the PCs will kill him and loot him, that's why! Do you really want your PCs to get such a sweet thing as this for free? NO! I think Evard's is a nice thing to have, but it's as good from a scroll as from memory. Don't save up one-shot items, why should you? If you can't decide between Greater Invisibility and Evard's, take both! If the BBEG is worried about Faerie Fire, OK, so at least that spell sees some use once in a while. I wouldn't worry about it too much, if the only other option is taking basic Invisibility and running around visible most of the fight anyway! I like the idea of turning invisible and using illusions of oneself to make the PCs waste spells. I did this once and it confused the hell out of my group. Quite effective AND memorable, while not directly deadly to the PCs. Seeing the guy's spell list and your preference for "divide and conquer" tactics reminded me that this BBEG desperately needs some minions to throw at the PCs. Use some skeletons or zombies to provide killing power against hampered/debuffed/panicked/divided/incapacitated PCs. He could also have a few charmed city guards around to give the PCs some hard moral decisions to make!
RobbyPants 09-19-07, 10:51 AM	You really don't want to give your BBEG something like a +1 Twilight Mithral Shirt. You don't. The thing about Mage Armor is that it lasts the whole freakin' day, or at least for a large enough part of it that your BBEG can be assumed to have it going all the time. As long as the PCs don't actually Dispel it, he'll have it up. The second he detected the PCs, he cast it, simple as that. And why is it you don't want him to have the Mithral baby? Coz the PCs will kill him and loot him, that's why! Do you really want your PCs to get such a sweet thing as this for free? NO! Well, I was planning on that being the primary piece of treasure. I did add a Ring of Chameleon Power while designing him, allowing him to hide better without having to use Invisibility. Still, even though it's worth more than the shirt, I don't see the PCs getting as much use out of it. I think Evard's is a nice thing to have, but it's as good from a scroll as from memory. Don't save up one-shot items, why should you? If you can't decide between Greater Invisibility and Evard's, take both! If the BBEG is worried about Faerie Fire, OK, so at least that spell sees some use once in a while. I wouldn't worry about it too much, if the only other option is taking basic Invisibility and running around visible most of the fight anyway! Well, he has been hit by Faerie Fire once before, so he knows that the first action the druid will take will be to use it. That pretty much nullifies Greater Invisiblity. So I think I'll use the 2nd level Invisibility to buff up and get close. After that, I think he'll just try to hamper/incapacitate the PCs as quickly as possible. Seeing the guy's spell list and your preference for "divide and conquer" tactics reminded me that this BBEG desperately needs some minions to throw at the PCs. Use some skeletons or zombies to provide killing power against hampered/debuffed/panicked/divided/incapacitated PCs. This is a good idea. He is a necromancer, so I just need to figure out what types to use (preferably few with larger hit dice as opposed to many with few hit dice). He could also have a few charmed city guards around to give the PCs some hard moral decisions to make! Well, I didn't post the specifics of the campaign in my OP, but there really is no one else around for quite a while. The nearby town is pretty much empty. The PCs have been finishing up on a little zombie horror session that I ran using some home-brewed infected zombies (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=920793).
RobbyPants 09-20-07, 10:03 AM	Thanks for all the replies! :D So far, what I'm leaning twoard is as follows: Have him regroup with his zombies/skeletons Rest and rememorize spells (Swap out Greater Invisibility for Evard's Black Tenticles, Swap out Major Image for Suggestion). When getting ready to face off the party, turn Invisible, and buff up with a few potions/scrolls (probably Shield, Cat's Grace, and perhaps Fly, and/or Fox' Cunning). Now, I'm still a little iffy as for what to do on the first round. I'm thinking of either: Cast Fear to try and scatter the group. Cast Evard's Black Tenticles to try and hamper the group. Cast Suggestion on the Fighter to try and gain a strong ally. Perhaps Fear the first round (sending in the undead) followed by Evard's Black Tenticles the next would work well too. That way, hopefully one or two run, and then two or three get stuck the next round. I would think that he'd only have one or two PCs at full capacity at that point. Also, in terms of their saves, their base saves (I don't remember all the PC's abilities, but the Conjurer has Great Fortitude) should be as follows: Druid - Fort + 4, Ref + 1, Will + 4 Cleric - Fort + 4, Ref + 1, Will + 4 Conjurer/Master Specialist - Fort + 1 (3), Ref + 1, Will + 6 Monk - Fort + 4, Ref + 4, Will + 4 Fighter - Fort + 4, Ref + 1, Will + 1 Obviously, there's only one weak will save there. Reflex is bad for all but the monk, so the Acid Breath could work well if they get too close. All of them has solid Fort saves, but the BBEG doesn't have much that forces these anyway. Any other ideas? Any obvious holes in the PCs defenses?
RobbyPants 09-26-07, 09:57 AM	Final Update (the results of the fight) Well, long story short, two of the five PCs died. In the end, I think this was a good thing, as it's been a while since a PC has died in my game (keeps a little tension in every battle ;)). As a 7th level caster, the BBEG could control 28 HD of undead. Now, in the prior session, the PCs ran into three human zombies (total of 6 HD) in his house, so I figured I had 22 HD left to create minions for him without him creating more. I ended up using an ogre zombie (8 HD), two wolf zombies (4 HD each), and two black bear skeletons (3 HD each). I know I could have picked some tougher undead, but I thought this would be a good mix, and give the BBEG several minions that had decent HP. The PCs encountered the undead "hiding" (not very well) behind some bushes, while the BBEG was invisible off to the side. He'd already cast Cat's Grace on himself, bringing his AC from 17 to 21. The fight opened up with the monk moving up toward the undead and holding (he couldn't reach with a charge, and charging wouldn't have been wise anyway). The conjurer Fireballed all the undead, killing the skeletons and wounding the zombies. The druid Entangled the zombies. The BBEG sprung into action with Evard's Black Tenticles, which ultimately kept him alive for quite a while. None of the casters had spells with no somatic components prepared. All of the PCs were having trouble beating the grapple check 15 of the tenticles. Only the monk and the druid's dog were free, because they had already moved out of the area. On the next round, the BBEG used Phantsmal Killer on the druid. This was a combination of me wanting to use a save-or-die (both for the wonderful flavor of the fearomancer BBEG and for effective use of spells) but at least cast it on someone with a decent Will and Fort save. She rolled a natural 6 and 4 respectively and died. She was targeted largely because she had neutralized the zombies for quite a while. That 1st level Entangle proved more useful than that 3rd level Fireball (although this is often the case with judicious use of crowd controls). The dog and monk went to work on the BBEG (who remained prone most of the time thanks the the dog's trip ability). The BBEG tried to hold them at bay with a combination of Acid Breath and Vampiric Touch. He gave the two of them a run for their money, but they eventually got in a good round of solid hits and damage. Meanwhile, the conjurer slowly got crushed to death in the tenticles. The cleric eventually got free (with two checks, because of his slow speed), several rounds before he would have died. The fighter got free one round before he would have died. The zombies made next to no progress though the Entangle spell. The cleric, monk, and fighter got healed, and with fairly little difficulty, dealt with the zombies. The monk got dropped to -4, but he was near the cleric, so it was no real big deal. Anyway, thanks everyone for your suggestions! :D All in all I think it was a good BBEG fight, and I think the players had fun too.