Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CalemJones 04-24-06, 12:07 PM	I had a thought that I could make a mirror of the party using a modified mirror of opposition. Has anyone tried something like this, and if so how did it turn out thanks for the feedback.
Illion the Red 04-24-06, 12:41 PM	I had a thought that I could make a mirror of the party using a modified mirror of opposition. Has anyone tried something like this, and if so how did it turn out thanks for the feedback. You don't necessarily need to modify the mirror, other than to make it larger. Here's an example of how I've done it: The PCs enter the BBEG's inner sanctum. He is seated upon a great high-backed throne that virtually wraps around his body - this shields him from the mirror. Behind him is a mirror that covers the entire wall. The PCs enter the room, carefully avoiding the two-sided wall of fire trap that they have learned lies down the center of the room. (This places them in direct sight of the mirror). The BBEG makes his rant, being sure to use the command word of the mirror in the middle of it. The mirror triggers, and everyone's duplicate jumps out of the mirror and starts attacking. This is a VERY difficult encounter - especially with the BBEG there to cause further problems. Unless the PCs are very good and more than a bit lucky, this could very well be a TPK.
CalemJones 04-24-06, 12:50 PM	Thanks for that but i was thinking of the Party being the BBEGs and the evil party goes looking for the Regia of Evil wadda think
Fraser1986 04-24-06, 12:51 PM	i second the motion that this is a very difficult encounter. Even without the BBEG, the party has a 50% chance of loosing. Still, you could have a toned down reflection of the party or something
Illion the Red 04-24-06, 12:54 PM	Thanks for that but i was thinking of the Party being the BBEGs and the evil party goes looking for the Regia of Evil wadda think Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like you are asking about running a campaign for an evil-aligned party. This can work out fine. The key (my opinion anyway) to running a successful evil campaign is to have mature players and a concrete reason for the PCs to work together. Absent these two factors, your campaign will disintegrate into a PK-fest sooner or later.
Steel Cobra 04-24-06, 03:50 PM	Well, from what it seems, you want basically twins of the party to walk around and give the PCs trouble. Well from what You have told me I would tone them down a bit, like a bit lower stats, but then make their spells prepared ready for the encounter. That is when they do encounter. Please keep in mind I am not saying you are a bad DM or anything, just giving my opinion. This will be VERY difficult to play, and you have to make sure you do it right. I mean not just the fact of a mirror party, but trashing of their reputation, everyone looks at them bad, clearing of their name, that sort of thing. For example if they walk into a town where the BBEGs have been you need to play the villagers like they are horrid and try to chase them out. But not every town will have this result, only about 1 out of 3. Also on that note, don't have them react the same way, remember differant people, probally differant deeds the BBEGs have done. But also inside the towns the BBEGs have been in, not all hate them, the evil people want them to do more evil, and they will not all say no to selling them something. This is going to be one of the hardest plots out there. But also when people say that they usually also say, it will be one of the most rewarding. I only suggest using it if you're able to come up with things on the fly, and are on the upperscale of DMing. You know how good you are. don't lie to yourself and make this campeign turn out like a walk through a poorly done video game.
00_Whupass 04-24-06, 04:52 PM	The evil opposites is a fairly cliche concept, but there's nothing wrong with that cliches be come cliche because they were entertaining enough to see again and again. The others who've posted here have been correct in assuming this will be a very difficult encounter, and if you threw their maniacal dopplegangers at them unaltered it would certainly be the only encounter they could face that day, if they survived at all. Here's one possible sollution that I like since it both helps to balance the encounter mechanically and has really cool flavor: The mirror is cracked and whoever the PCs are opposing is trying to gather the mystical components to repair it. Due to the mirror's damaged state the opponents who emerge from it have a few negative levels, reducing their CR and skewing the difficulty from a likely TPK to a very challenging but survivable encounter. Finally, make sure their dopplegangers have beards and wear swords for taht true Star Trek evil clone universe feel. Although in D&D I suppose the swords won't really be out of place...Oh well, beards it is then!
AAOMasta 04-24-06, 05:32 PM	Hey just wondering (since i dont have the book in front of me I can't see the item description) but it sounds like the item could have a cool plot hook if it could make a copy of the party that didn't realize it was a copy :). Sort of like that Schwartzinager movie where he was a clone. What do you think? or would the item have to work differently to do that?
Illion the Red 04-25-06, 10:12 AM	Hey just wondering (since i dont have the book in front of me I can't see the item description) but it sounds like the item could have a cool plot hook if it could make a copy of the party that didn't realize it was a copy :). Sort of like that Schwartzinager movie where he was a clone. What do you think? or would the item have to work differently to do that? The mirror makes a copy of whatever is reflected in the mirror. The copy immediately attacks the original. However the battle turns out, the copy and all of its items disappear when either the copy, or the original is dead. So, you'd have to modify the item quite a bit for this idea to work... But what a great idea for a BBEG to possess a mirror of Scrying Opposition...whatever it shows through scrying can be duplicated and sent after the original. I'd probably limit the usage to once a week or something, but that could be real disconcerting to a player. :evillaugh
Morka 04-25-06, 10:36 AM	Here's another idea. Start the campaign with some random adventures: treasure hunting, retrieve child fallen in the well, protect little town from orcs/goblins/kobolds, etc. But in one of their first dungeon, they see a huge mirror. Not long after, a band of brigands begin to scavenge the area. They eventually start an evil cult, make alliances with evil humanoids, invade parts of the country, there is a huge war. The PCs are making some covert opperations (see Red Hand of Doom or Heroes of Battle for examples). But all the long, the evil army's leader remain unknown. Finally, the PCs are sent in a commando to eliminate those leaders, who happen to be... themselves!
Delfedd 04-25-06, 11:46 AM	Heres an Idea. The PCs get oppositioned by the mirror, then they get thrown into prisson. afterwards, the duplicates go around spreading evil/good and generally making bad names for the PCs.The pcs eventually escape, and are quickly on the tail of the Duplicates.
OctoberRaven 04-25-06, 11:51 AM	You do realise if the PCs win they're going going to double their loot, right? If you don't mind that, by all means go for it.
Illion the Red 04-25-06, 11:58 AM	You do realise if the PCs win they're going going to double their loot, right? If you don't mind that, by all means go for it. The loot and creatures generated by the mirror disappear when either the creature generated or the original is defeated or dead. No lasting loot is generated. Here is the entry for the mirror: Mirror of Opposition: This item resembles a normal mirror about 4 feet long and 3 feet wide. It can be hung or placed on a surface and then activated by speaking a command word. The same command word deactivates the mirror. If a creature sees its reflection in the mirror’s surface, an exact duplicate of that creature comes into being. This opposite immediately attacks the original. The duplicate has all the possessions and powers of its original (including magic). Upon the defeat or destruction of either the duplicate or the original, the duplicate and her items disappear completely. The mirror functions up to four times per day.
Kakerate 04-25-06, 12:07 PM	I had a thought that I could make a mirror of the party using a modified mirror of opposition. Has anyone tried something like this, and if so how did it turn out thanks for the feedback. I had a dm who did this once. The party Pc warfoged was an ancient evil warforged forged of adamatite in hell. Some paladins was looking to do away wit our warforged freind by building a good aligned counterpart so we took the initiative and searched the land for said fools. When we found the lab under a cathedral( or its likeness) we eventually got to the room in the basement. The paladins activated the counterpart and battle ensued. I was taken out in the first two rounds, then the rogue. All that was left was ol' Badass the ancient warforged juggernaught! The last few blows between him and the Palyfoged had me on the edge of my seat. He fought and killed them all off in a stunning display of power. If that thing landed like 1 more blow we were all dead... or worse! You could say the ancient adamantie warforged wupt them old school(which is noteable because he was the older obsolete version)! I was totally like Awsome! That was one of the best battles I was ever in! The warforged Pc was nearly dead, but he managed to bring us all back. The rogue player was ****** that he was taken out right at the start, but I was happy to just enjoy the show! I think the DM even rolled the dice out in front of us too, so it wasn't fudged that way!
StevenO 04-26-06, 12:08 AM	This was similiar to the final fight in "The Quest for the Heartstone" waaay back in AD&D. See the info on Warduke for more information. Assuming the party members are all equal level you theoretically get a EL = Party Level +4 which is very difficult to overpowering. Especially if you factor in how PCs are a little better equiped (on average) than NPC. This EL + 4 encounter concept breaks down and could earn an EL below party average when you start using LA adjusted characters. A 15 HD PC Young Silver Dragon has an ECL 20 but its clone is only CR 7 (+ adjustment for equipment) which should be an insignificant threat. I say that just shows how poor LA and CR are used on some creatures.
aotrscommander 04-26-06, 08:53 AM	I have done this before (and jolly entertaining it was too!) This was in 2nd ed (heavily tweaked, granted), and the party were 4-6th level or so. The beat the encounter with only modest casualties (no fatalities). I will doubltess use such a tactic again in the future, since as a DM I am a professional person of questionable parentage. (In my defence, mind, I have only ever killed 3 PCs in my 15-16 years if DMing, and that was all in on quest!) It is a good idea stylistically too, if you plan on having more than one encounter; many of te bads guys in popular literature/media are the ones who closely resemble the heroes in skills and powers (two side of the same coin). As people have said, the fight may be very difficult, especially ay high levels. PCs may die (if you want them too). But if the final confrontation is at the end of the campaign, ultimately, does it matter? At the end of the campaign my friend is writing, we each will to fight one-on-one with a powerful NPC whith similar abilities (some of them with LA on top of their characters levels, which may be superior). This will be the final confronation between good and evil, and the DM has stated that during this fight he will actively (but legally) trying to kill the characters. If you are concerned about them fighting all at once, split the evil party into smaller groups (ones that work well or roleplay well together). If you are planning on having the mirror PCs around for more than one encounter, the Evil Beards become absolutely obligatory. (You may want a changed hairstyle for the females, or just go with the beards anyway).