BBGG - Bonzo the Unkillable [Archive] - Wizards Community

BBGG - Bonzo the Unkillable [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jtgalt
03-24-04, 01:17 AM How's this for a BBGG who is pretty much unkillable:

3.0 rules, Forgotten Realms world:

Pal11/Divine Agent of Bahamut 10 (ECL 22)

The usual stuff (Divine Might/etc).

Has the following 2 spells permantly cast on him:

Spell Resistance 60 (Ex): This grants SR of 60 as an extra ordinary ability.

Damage Reduction 35/+10 (Ex): This grants DR of 35/+10 weapons as an extra ordinary ability.

Broach of AntiMagic Field: Generic wonderous item that provides a permanent anti-magic field around the character.

Strengths:
-------------
The ungodly SR means that any caster short of lvl 33-34 who rolls a Natural 20 on his/her Caster Level check won't be able to penetrate the SR. As a paladin, CHA to saves means that saving throws are extraordinarily high as well.

The DR 35/+10 effectively makes it DR 35/- in an anti-magic field, negating most attacks.

Spells won't work due to the AM field, and last I checked Walls of Force weren't air-tight, so suffocating him isn't viable either.

Assume the character is in a field or other outdoor environment (aka in a city or whatnot) so easy solutions such as drowning aren't feasible.

How would you rate this as a challenge? How do you see this BBGG being defeated?

Starving him to death or letting him die of old age would work(barring him actually DOING anything with his life), but I'm talking more combat-oriented.
Octiron
03-24-04, 01:33 AM Sunder the brooch, then Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

Spell resistance can't be made permanent upon someone. Not sure what spell damage reduction is.
OdomUbergimp
03-24-04, 01:44 AM .
OmiKapSi
03-24-04, 02:44 AM Er, I'm pretty sure that the antimagic field would negate the permanent spells, removing his SR (which it would make redundent anyway), and his damage reduction.

And yeah, sundering or stealing the broach would be quite effective.

Finally, if I were allowed to twink a character from 1st to 21st level, as a tank, I'd be doing well over 35 damage per round, so DR is just gonna prolong the fight.
Throw in a flanking rogue of top level, and you've got some serious bonzo cutlets in the making.
Round it off with a top level monk type, perhaps with twinked out grappling, and we got some gravy for those cutlets.

Basically all you've done is make him more or less immune to magic, and given him major DR. That's a far cry from unkillable.
Seriously, no one is unkillable. Just rate him as a standard CR 21 creature, dependent on equipment value and cohorts.

And even if drowning isn't an option, there's plenty of ways to incapacitate those people are considered "unkillable". I'd start by dropping him down a well, followed by a rock with a diameter equal to the wells diameter.
Then I'd get creative.
wdarkk
03-24-04, 02:59 AM The spells are Epic Spells, which are not necessarily negated by antimagic.

I'd recommend giving him normal CR. You could still grapple him and garrote him.
jtgalt
03-24-04, 11:23 AM OmiKapSi:

The spell abilities are listed as (Ex) as in Extraordinary. Extraordinary abilities work in AntiMagic Fields w/o problem.

You're absolutely right, a decently equipped fighter can do more than 35 damage a ROUND, but keep in mind that the DR is taking off the first 35points of each HIT.

Sundering the broach will only remove the AM field, at which point his insane SR makes him pretty much magic-immune, anyway.

Armor of Heavy Fortification(which is surprisingly CHEAP) negates the Sneak Attack angle, and an item of +30 to grapple checks is well within the monetary guidelines as well.

As for your suggestion to drop him down a well, how do you plan on getting him in position to do that?

Yes, I do agree there are ways to get around this guy, *BUT* I can't think of a way to do it w/o customization specifically tailored to do so. If this guy were a PC in a campaign, there aren't many(if any) CR 21 mobs that are going to pose him much of a challenge.

The players are rather inventive, something that I'm not, so I'd like to hear what y'all can do to this guy. I'm going to ignore all factors like his residence and cohorts/assistants because they are of minor importance when compared to Bonzo.
Ariana
03-24-04, 12:17 PM Spells are magic.

Please quote the description of those spells as well as the permanancy effect on them?
Polymorph
03-24-04, 05:23 PM with his magic items his defense is nice, but still, he is no match for a wizard of his level, or even a whole group of PCs!

No matter how epic his spells are, they remain spells. There is no epic spell listed (and the listed ones are the guidelines of what is possible) that can establish weavemagic in an antimagic field.
Remember that you need insane skillranks to forge spells like that, so the Casters that could cast them would spend endless ammounts of gold to research it and they would very likely not cast it on him, because the xp cost of a permanent spell like that would send them back into low level. :smirk:
In addition to that the two spells are way beyond the powerlevel of any known epic spell. Also, no epic spell like that can have a permanent duration.
In short: these spells are impossible to be in existance ;)

The Brooch of antimagic will disable all of the items he might have, which makes him even easier to beat. this ensures that he can not fly, he can not teleport away with some item, he can not use rods, Scrolls and he can not even cast the few spells he knows.

A party of level 18 characters (Barbarian, Wizard, Fighter, Sorceror) could easily defeat him in one round of combat without any special preperation:

The party all delay to let him act first and he does whatever he wants... likely run up to the party and attack someone. without magically enhanced attack and damage, he will not likely do a lot of damage. Then the Fighter thunders the Brooch, if he should not menage this rather easy task, the barbarian can still do the job. Next the sorceror summons a Gate to the plane of whatsoever (likely the negative energy plane) via the gate spell (the no xp cost variant, cause he does not call a creautre with it). Finally the Wizard reverses gravity and the big bonzo is gone into the gate to nowhere. There is neither a saving throw, nor spell resistance allowed.

The funnyer possibility is to just send the party rogue up to him and tell him that this brooch he wears belonged to the rogues family for decades and was lost tragically during the times of troubles. With a highlevel bluff check he is likely to believe this outrageous lie. Come on, he did not max out sense motive did he? :D Things will become even harder for him, when all the party members will start aiding the rogue by agreeing with his lies.

It all depends on what Bonzo is doing. Why doesn't the wizard turn the rogue into someone he trusts (a member of his organisation, a family member, a friend) and send him to give a treasuremap to Bonzo or just deliver a message that makes him go somewhere. (like "Your family has been killed by an orc chieftain and he challanges you to fight", etc)
Bonzo will go to a place that has been nicely trapped by the PCs. For example a ropetrick storing hundreds of flasks of alchemists fire to pour down on him when he is underneath, an old crypt that can be sealed and filled with acid once he is inside. Alternatively, the mage could polymorph the rogue to be like Bonzo, then send him out to his worst enemies or allies and use some bad language to make sure that they will try to kill Bonzo soon enough.

It's just too easy to kill that guy... :cool:
jtgalt
03-24-04, 06:16 PM I dont' have the spell specifics at the moment (i'm @ work), but it basically boils down to something liek the following:

ELH Page 98: Using this seed can provide a creature that didn't have SR an SR w/ a base SR of 25. The seed for this is 27.

As per the rules, you can permanatize any spell for a DC cost of x5 before mitigation.

This seems to be VERY do-able.
OmiKapSi
03-24-04, 06:35 PM Items of +30 grapple don't work in antimagic field. Unless someone went and invented a mundane item that uses some pretty phenomenal technology.
Neither would a set of armors fortification ability.

A 21st level half-orc barbarian with improved grapple could easily rage, grab and then pin this guy and haul him to the nearest well. Barbarian then executes a trip and release. Toodles.

Alternatively said half-orc barbarian with improved disarm instead, rages, disarms, then rogue ally grabs weapon and hoofs it. Dire wolf companion of druid then trips Bonzo. Bonzo is now flat on his back with his main weapon 30+ feet away in the hands of the enemy.

Seriously, no single person is going to be 'invincible'. A little planning can disrupt any 'perfect' combination.

Now, you said that you are looking for imaginative ways that the group might deal with this character, there's two, here's a few more:

Mage casts Dominate Monster on a creature followed by improved invisibility on himself. Once the monster hits the field, the domination is gone, and it's going to be pretty upset. Lacking it's primary target, it's gonna go after the guy in front of it. A creature with natural energy damage could be very nasty.

Walls of stone/iron cast around outside perimeter of antimagic fiel. Once cast, they are no longer magical. Create water, cast repeatedly on a point above the field, but outside it's influence, once again, once created, it's not magical.

A wizard with the [I]Fabricate[I] spell and maxed ranks in Craft (Alchemy) gets 10 cubic feet of sulfur and 10 cubic feet of water, and then uses the spell to make 20 cubic feet of sulphuric acid. He then uses telekinesis to loft the acid to a point above Bonzo and then brings it downward. The only spell effect that ends is telekinesis, and gravity takes over.

Same wizard uses 40 cubic feet of flaxseed and fabricate to extract 10 to 30 cubic feet of flaxseed oil. Said oil is then levitated as per acid, and set on fire.
the Horc
03-24-04, 06:48 PM I'm thinking: cast Gate behind, then having someone big and beefy to come and throw him into there... where he lands up is up to the the caster in question, though consider the Elemental plane of water, the Elemental Plane of Fire, or perhaps the Abyss.
Quenditar
03-24-04, 07:06 PM Originally posted by the Horc
I'm thinking: cast Gate behind, then having someone big and beefy to come and throw him into there... where he lands up is up to the the caster in question, though consider the Elemental plane of water, the Elemental Plane of Fire, or perhaps the Abyss.
Would the gate vanish when it comes into contact with the antimagic field?
Dresdor
03-24-04, 07:09 PM So all that we've proven is that on this board: "This guy is unkillable" really means "Let's come up with unique ways to kill him"
scorchmagus
03-24-04, 07:27 PM Bull Rush into Prismatic Wall
Repeat as necessary

Dresdor,
This was asked as a "how could he be killed?" so that's what people are answering.

Nevermind the fact that these defenses are beyond improbable for someone ECL 22 to have. I didn't keep the calculations, but I think I figured to make an epic spell to grant permanent SR60 would have a base DC of over 800 before mitigating factors. To give DR 35/magic would be over 400 I think.
jtgalt
03-24-04, 07:47 PM Yes, the Spell DC's were high, but with the mitigating factors, I brought it down to a more manageable 50ish. As the character is a paladin, he obviously wasn't the one casting the spells - He paid for them to be cast. (and paid a pretty penny I might add)

I hadn't really considered the grapple/SA approach. Given the party config, that's a rather probable solution.

One of the party mages is very prone to Dominate Monster, so I wouldn't be surprised if they used that, either.

Thanks for the help, guys. You've given me probable alternatives to actually melee'ing the guy, which is where I was coming from.

I tend to be a very straight-forward, in-your-face type of player, so that's also how my DM'ing style tends to lean. Smashmouth tactics, not finesse tactics, are the name of the game for my NPC's simply because I, as a person, don't understand the "softer" techniques.
was_fired
03-24-04, 07:47 PM Damn I am really a fan of that wall of force bowl along with an epic spell to make a huge sum of sulfuric acid. Don't forget the good old fasioned tactic of dropping a rock on him. Trap him in a wall of force nice big area and then drop a 10,000lb (62 cubic foot) chunk of granite on the bugger from 20ft up and he takes 2d6 (distance) + 50d6 (weight) - 35 (DR) = 135 damage. It would take an epic spell to move a rock that big but hey it would be funny. Also it push him a ways into the ground likely causing suffocation.
Dresdor
03-24-04, 07:50 PM So did you follow the NPC equipment value for this? Cause I think you went overboard.
olshanski_home
03-24-04, 07:53 PM Oznob the Bonzo slayer.

3.0 rules, Forgotten Realms world:

Ftr15

The usual stuff (Specialization, wpn focus/etc, extra smiting, etc) belt of giant strength, etc.

Has the following 2 spells permantly cast on him:

Smite Good 60 (Ex): This grants 60 extra points of non-typed damage on every attack against a good being.

Smite Law 60 (Ex): This grants 60 extra points of non-typed damage on every attack against a lawful being.

Even without a broach of antimagic shield, he is probably doing about 150 points of damage on a hit. I figure the paladin is dead in 2 rounds.

It's ok to make up bogus (EX) spells isn't it?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jtgalt 03-24-04, 01:17 AM	How's this for a BBGG who is pretty much unkillable: 3.0 rules, Forgotten Realms world: Pal11/Divine Agent of Bahamut 10 (ECL 22) The usual stuff (Divine Might/etc). Has the following 2 spells permantly cast on him: Spell Resistance 60 (Ex): This grants SR of 60 as an extra ordinary ability. Damage Reduction 35/+10 (Ex): This grants DR of 35/+10 weapons as an extra ordinary ability. Broach of AntiMagic Field: Generic wonderous item that provides a permanent anti-magic field around the character. Strengths: ------------- The ungodly SR means that any caster short of lvl 33-34 who rolls a Natural 20 on his/her Caster Level check won't be able to penetrate the SR. As a paladin, CHA to saves means that saving throws are extraordinarily high as well. The DR 35/+10 effectively makes it DR 35/- in an anti-magic field, negating most attacks. Spells won't work due to the AM field, and last I checked Walls of Force weren't air-tight, so suffocating him isn't viable either. Assume the character is in a field or other outdoor environment (aka in a city or whatnot) so easy solutions such as drowning aren't feasible. How would you rate this as a challenge? How do you see this BBGG being defeated? Starving him to death or letting him die of old age would work(barring him actually DOING anything with his life), but I'm talking more combat-oriented.
Octiron 03-24-04, 01:33 AM	Sunder the brooch, then Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Spell resistance can't be made permanent upon someone. Not sure what spell damage reduction is.
OdomUbergimp 03-24-04, 01:44 AM	.
OmiKapSi 03-24-04, 02:44 AM	Er, I'm pretty sure that the antimagic field would negate the permanent spells, removing his SR (which it would make redundent anyway), and his damage reduction. And yeah, sundering or stealing the broach would be quite effective. Finally, if I were allowed to twink a character from 1st to 21st level, as a tank, I'd be doing well over 35 damage per round, so DR is just gonna prolong the fight. Throw in a flanking rogue of top level, and you've got some serious bonzo cutlets in the making. Round it off with a top level monk type, perhaps with twinked out grappling, and we got some gravy for those cutlets. Basically all you've done is make him more or less immune to magic, and given him major DR. That's a far cry from unkillable. Seriously, no one is unkillable. Just rate him as a standard CR 21 creature, dependent on equipment value and cohorts. And even if drowning isn't an option, there's plenty of ways to incapacitate those people are considered "unkillable". I'd start by dropping him down a well, followed by a rock with a diameter equal to the wells diameter. Then I'd get creative.
wdarkk 03-24-04, 02:59 AM	The spells are Epic Spells, which are not necessarily negated by antimagic. I'd recommend giving him normal CR. You could still grapple him and garrote him.
jtgalt 03-24-04, 11:23 AM	OmiKapSi: The spell abilities are listed as (Ex) as in Extraordinary. Extraordinary abilities work in AntiMagic Fields w/o problem. You're absolutely right, a decently equipped fighter can do more than 35 damage a ROUND, but keep in mind that the DR is taking off the first 35points of each HIT. Sundering the broach will only remove the AM field, at which point his insane SR makes him pretty much magic-immune, anyway. Armor of Heavy Fortification(which is surprisingly CHEAP) negates the Sneak Attack angle, and an item of +30 to grapple checks is well within the monetary guidelines as well. As for your suggestion to drop him down a well, how do you plan on getting him in position to do that? Yes, I do agree there are ways to get around this guy, BUT I can't think of a way to do it w/o customization specifically tailored to do so. If this guy were a PC in a campaign, there aren't many(if any) CR 21 mobs that are going to pose him much of a challenge. The players are rather inventive, something that I'm not, so I'd like to hear what y'all can do to this guy. I'm going to ignore all factors like his residence and cohorts/assistants because they are of minor importance when compared to Bonzo.
Ariana 03-24-04, 12:17 PM	Spells are magic. Please quote the description of those spells as well as the permanancy effect on them?
Polymorph 03-24-04, 05:23 PM	with his magic items his defense is nice, but still, he is no match for a wizard of his level, or even a whole group of PCs! No matter how epic his spells are, they remain spells. There is no epic spell listed (and the listed ones are the guidelines of what is possible) that can establish weavemagic in an antimagic field. Remember that you need insane skillranks to forge spells like that, so the Casters that could cast them would spend endless ammounts of gold to research it and they would very likely not cast it on him, because the xp cost of a permanent spell like that would send them back into low level. :smirk: In addition to that the two spells are way beyond the powerlevel of any known epic spell. Also, no epic spell like that can have a permanent duration. In short: these spells are impossible to be in existance ;) The Brooch of antimagic will disable all of the items he might have, which makes him even easier to beat. this ensures that he can not fly, he can not teleport away with some item, he can not use rods, Scrolls and he can not even cast the few spells he knows. A party of level 18 characters (Barbarian, Wizard, Fighter, Sorceror) could easily defeat him in one round of combat without any special preperation: The party all delay to let him act first and he does whatever he wants... likely run up to the party and attack someone. without magically enhanced attack and damage, he will not likely do a lot of damage. Then the Fighter thunders the Brooch, if he should not menage this rather easy task, the barbarian can still do the job. Next the sorceror summons a Gate to the plane of whatsoever (likely the negative energy plane) via the gate spell (the no xp cost variant, cause he does not call a creautre with it). Finally the Wizard reverses gravity and the big bonzo is gone into the gate to nowhere. There is neither a saving throw, nor spell resistance allowed. The funnyer possibility is to just send the party rogue up to him and tell him that this brooch he wears belonged to the rogues family for decades and was lost tragically during the times of troubles. With a highlevel bluff check he is likely to believe this outrageous lie. Come on, he did not max out sense motive did he? :D Things will become even harder for him, when all the party members will start aiding the rogue by agreeing with his lies. It all depends on what Bonzo is doing. Why doesn't the wizard turn the rogue into someone he trusts (a member of his organisation, a family member, a friend) and send him to give a treasuremap to Bonzo or just deliver a message that makes him go somewhere. (like "Your family has been killed by an orc chieftain and he challanges you to fight", etc) Bonzo will go to a place that has been nicely trapped by the PCs. For example a ropetrick storing hundreds of flasks of alchemists fire to pour down on him when he is underneath, an old crypt that can be sealed and filled with acid once he is inside. Alternatively, the mage could polymorph the rogue to be like Bonzo, then send him out to his worst enemies or allies and use some bad language to make sure that they will try to kill Bonzo soon enough. It's just too easy to kill that guy... :cool:
jtgalt 03-24-04, 06:16 PM	I dont' have the spell specifics at the moment (i'm @ work), but it basically boils down to something liek the following: ELH Page 98: Using this seed can provide a creature that didn't have SR an SR w/ a base SR of 25. The seed for this is 27. As per the rules, you can permanatize any spell for a DC cost of x5 before mitigation. This seems to be VERY do-able.
OmiKapSi 03-24-04, 06:35 PM	Items of +30 grapple don't work in antimagic field. Unless someone went and invented a mundane item that uses some pretty phenomenal technology. Neither would a set of armors fortification ability. A 21st level half-orc barbarian with improved grapple could easily rage, grab and then pin this guy and haul him to the nearest well. Barbarian then executes a trip and release. Toodles. Alternatively said half-orc barbarian with improved disarm instead, rages, disarms, then rogue ally grabs weapon and hoofs it. Dire wolf companion of druid then trips Bonzo. Bonzo is now flat on his back with his main weapon 30+ feet away in the hands of the enemy. Seriously, no single person is going to be 'invincible'. A little planning can disrupt any 'perfect' combination. Now, you said that you are looking for imaginative ways that the group might deal with this character, there's two, here's a few more: Mage casts Dominate Monster on a creature followed by improved invisibility on himself. Once the monster hits the field, the domination is gone, and it's going to be pretty upset. Lacking it's primary target, it's gonna go after the guy in front of it. A creature with natural energy damage could be very nasty. Walls of stone/iron cast around outside perimeter of antimagic fiel. Once cast, they are no longer magical. Create water, cast repeatedly on a point above the field, but outside it's influence, once again, once created, it's not magical. A wizard with the [I]Fabricate[I] spell and maxed ranks in Craft (Alchemy) gets 10 cubic feet of sulfur and 10 cubic feet of water, and then uses the spell to make 20 cubic feet of sulphuric acid. He then uses telekinesis to loft the acid to a point above Bonzo and then brings it downward. The only spell effect that ends is telekinesis, and gravity takes over. Same wizard uses 40 cubic feet of flaxseed and fabricate to extract 10 to 30 cubic feet of flaxseed oil. Said oil is then levitated as per acid, and set on fire.
the Horc 03-24-04, 06:48 PM	I'm thinking: cast Gate behind, then having someone big and beefy to come and throw him into there... where he lands up is up to the the caster in question, though consider the Elemental plane of water, the Elemental Plane of Fire, or perhaps the Abyss.
Quenditar 03-24-04, 07:06 PM	Originally posted by the Horc I'm thinking: cast Gate behind, then having someone big and beefy to come and throw him into there... where he lands up is up to the the caster in question, though consider the Elemental plane of water, the Elemental Plane of Fire, or perhaps the Abyss. Would the gate vanish when it comes into contact with the antimagic field?
Dresdor 03-24-04, 07:09 PM	So all that we've proven is that on this board: "This guy is unkillable" really means "Let's come up with unique ways to kill him"
scorchmagus 03-24-04, 07:27 PM	Bull Rush into Prismatic Wall Repeat as necessary Dresdor, This was asked as a "how could he be killed?" so that's what people are answering. Nevermind the fact that these defenses are beyond improbable for someone ECL 22 to have. I didn't keep the calculations, but I think I figured to make an epic spell to grant permanent SR60 would have a base DC of over 800 before mitigating factors. To give DR 35/magic would be over 400 I think.
jtgalt 03-24-04, 07:47 PM	Yes, the Spell DC's were high, but with the mitigating factors, I brought it down to a more manageable 50ish. As the character is a paladin, he obviously wasn't the one casting the spells - He paid for them to be cast. (and paid a pretty penny I might add) I hadn't really considered the grapple/SA approach. Given the party config, that's a rather probable solution. One of the party mages is very prone to Dominate Monster, so I wouldn't be surprised if they used that, either. Thanks for the help, guys. You've given me probable alternatives to actually melee'ing the guy, which is where I was coming from. I tend to be a very straight-forward, in-your-face type of player, so that's also how my DM'ing style tends to lean. Smashmouth tactics, not finesse tactics, are the name of the game for my NPC's simply because I, as a person, don't understand the "softer" techniques.
was_fired 03-24-04, 07:47 PM	Damn I am really a fan of that wall of force bowl along with an epic spell to make a huge sum of sulfuric acid. Don't forget the good old fasioned tactic of dropping a rock on him. Trap him in a wall of force nice big area and then drop a 10,000lb (62 cubic foot) chunk of granite on the bugger from 20ft up and he takes 2d6 (distance) + 50d6 (weight) - 35 (DR) = 135 damage. It would take an epic spell to move a rock that big but hey it would be funny. Also it push him a ways into the ground likely causing suffocation.
Dresdor 03-24-04, 07:50 PM	So did you follow the NPC equipment value for this? Cause I think you went overboard.
olshanski_home 03-24-04, 07:53 PM	Oznob the Bonzo slayer. 3.0 rules, Forgotten Realms world: Ftr15 The usual stuff (Specialization, wpn focus/etc, extra smiting, etc) belt of giant strength, etc. Has the following 2 spells permantly cast on him: Smite Good 60 (Ex): This grants 60 extra points of non-typed damage on every attack against a good being. Smite Law 60 (Ex): This grants 60 extra points of non-typed damage on every attack against a lawful being. Even without a broach of antimagic shield, he is probably doing about 150 points of damage on a hit. I figure the paladin is dead in 2 rounds. It's ok to make up bogus (EX) spells isn't it?