Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Number_1_DM 02-25-06, 10:36 AM	Basically, PCs are going to use bear traps to help in the defense of a farm from half-orcs. The PCs will probably place the traps in the doorways of the farmhouse. Anyhow, long story short, what would the rules/stats for bear traps be? Thanks for the help guys!
Xaxor 02-25-06, 11:34 AM	Going off the top of my head, they would probably be melee attack traps (bonus anywhere from 0-2), do about 1d10 damage or so, and they could be noticed with a DC 20-25 Spot check. They would need a DC 20 Search and Disable Device check to be dealt with by a rogue. Rough idea, but not horrible.
Number_1_DM 02-25-06, 12:09 PM	Ok, so, due to sheer speed, I'll have the trap would make a melee attack at +2. I think d10 damage might be alittle bit high. Since the trap is designed to immobilize the creature, I think d6 or d8 would be better. The trap will start with a base DC 20 spot check... attempts to conceal it could raise the DC as high as 25. That partly answers the question. What about when the trap springs? What would be the checks to escape it? Strength? Escape Artist? Would the trapped creature lose AC or suffer a minus to attacks? Anyhow, thanks for the help so far. I want to get about 3 people to agree on the final design.
Ralvuimego 02-25-06, 12:16 PM	Honestly, I think the best option would be a strength check to force the jaws of the trap, not sure what the DC would be, but using Escape Artist is right out, because trying to wriggle your way out of the trap would only cause you to injure yourself more. (For more fun poison tip the teeth.:evillaugh)
Myrddin Wyllt 02-25-06, 12:26 PM	What level are the victims? How could any but the stupidest NPC miss a bear trap sitting in front of a farmhouse door? What kind of effort are they going to to hide them? A Hide skill check from the trap-setter should be the DC to search for the traps. Make the trap's attack bonus high enough to allow roughly a 15 roll on the d20 to hit the average victim. Let the victim make a Fort save to keep from crying out when caught (and giving away the element of surprise). Keep the damage fairly low (d6-d8). Make the DC for the strength check fairly high (25 seems appropriate) to escape the trap without a special tool. Make failed escape attempts deal additional trap damage (as the trap slams down on an open wound again and again). Allow any critical hits from traps to sever the victim's leg at the ankle, for higher level encounters; victims with a missing foot=no movement. Give other victims 1/2 movement until healed, when freed from traps.
Derren S. 02-25-06, 12:37 PM	Treat it like a caltdrop with 1d6 damage. Problem is that a bear trap in a doorway is in plain sight so its more like a barrier than a trap and easily bypassed. Hiding a bear trap in a house while keeping it functional is very hard. Don't let the spot SC get too high. 10 should be the maximum. Definatly don't let the trap sever legs or anything. that is way beyond the D&D combat system and the power of a simple trap.
Number_1_DM 02-25-06, 12:40 PM	Victims = level 1 half-orc barbarians. So, you're saying up the melee bonus to about +5? Sounds reasonable. The traps could be missed due to the choas of battle and the fact that the half-orcs will come at night... the spot check will be around 15. The battle will take place by torchlight. Strength DC 25 to escape will work fine.
Derren S. 02-25-06, 12:52 PM	Half-Orcs have darkvision so the night doesn't affect them at all. For them the trap is clearly visible (If they are smart, they will put out any torch they come across). And missing a bear trap in the heat of the combat is also unlikely as most trained combatants (which these babarians are) keep good track of the surrounding while in a combat. So unless they are hidden (and please tell me how to hide a bear trap in a house without it beeing too obvious) no spot check at all. The only way to get a orc in there would probably be a bull rush. And even if you require a spot check, DC 15 is a very hard task. DC 5 would imo be more reasonable. But considering that all traps have a high attack bonus you should increase the attack of the trap to at least +10.
Yak of Darkness 02-25-06, 01:12 PM	(In trying to design this, I'm attempting to make sure that the bear trap is actually a useful thing for . . . trapping bears. ^_^) First we've got to look at what we want the bear trap to do, I'm seeing the process as going something like this: Target doesn't notice the covered metal trap, or isn't paying enough attention to see it. Target steps on the trap's trigger. The trap quickly snaps shut, hopefully biting into the target's leg in the process. The target is ensnared in the trap, a fate both inconvienient and painful. So let's break down what we need for a trap to do all of these things. Step One: A bear trap is a big damn hunk of metal. Someone walking near one that's out in the open (especially on a flat surface) won't even need a Spot check to see it. Now, if we're talking about someone (or some bear) in a hurry, with the trap laid out in tall grass or undergrowth (not actually hidden, but hard to see), we're probably talking about something like a DC15 Spot check to see it and not step in it (this is the same DC to spot a gelatinous cube before running into it . . . the small size of the bear trap and the fact that it's mostly out of the way makes up for the fact that it's not transparent like the cube). A covered bear trap should require a Search check. Since it is simply a big damn hunk of metal (no hidden or subtle pieces of machinery in the walls), anybody should be able to find it by taking 20 on their Search check. So DC20 seems good for a covered bear trap, as it's still tough for an average person who's not trained at searching to find (unless they spend a full two minutes carefully picking through the covering), but still within the realm of possibility for someone who's not a rogue. If found, it shouldn't be hard to deal with. Avoiding it would be easy and springing it with a stick is a cinch. Mucking up the works with Disable Device shouldn't be too hard, either (DC14, say). Step Two: For a target who knows the trap is in a given square, it should be fairly easy to step around. For one who doesn't, and is simply walking through, they should make their save (see below) as normal. Someone running or charging through an square containing a trap they don't know about should incur a -2 circumstance penalty on the save. For a square just filled with traps (instead of containing one carefully hidden one), treat them like caltrops. A creature moving at half speed or slower can pick their way through, but anyone else walking, running, charging, or fighting in the square must make a save or get pinched by one. The bear trap will (obviously) stop a charging or running creature. Step Three: As the primary effect of a bear trap seems to be (in my mind) the holding of someone's leg more than the nasty damage it does along the way, I'd actually give the victim a Reflex save to quickly pull his leg up and out of the trap, rather than requiring an attack roll from the trap. Now, the easiest kind of bear CR-wise is the black bear, so let's say it should be the easiest one to trap, as well. With a Reflex save of +4 for the bear, if we set the save DC at 20, the bear has a 75% chance of getting snared, higher if he's running. This seems acceptible, but you can adjust to see fit. Step Four: So what happens to the trap's victim? Well, first, the thing ought to do some damage. Anything between 1d6, 1d8, or 2d6 piercing seem appropriate, depending on how nasty you want the trap to be. Furthermore, the trap ought to do continuous damage from bleeding (as you're still stuck with the thing in your leg) until one frees oneself. This should be relatively low (1/round, 1d6/min, 1d3/min, or 1/min), but can only be stopped by removing the trap (a Heal check isn't going to do any good if the teeth are still in someone's leg). To represent actually being trapped, the entangled condition seems to best fit (move at half speed, cannot run or charge, take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity, and anyone attempting to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15+spell level) or lose the spell . . . in addition to any Concentration check needed for continuous damage). If the trap is chained or bolted down to something, there also might be a limited range that the target can move within, or he might be stuck in the space altogether. As for getting out of the trap, either a Strength or Escape Artist check should be able to do it. For the Strength check, I'd set the DC at 22 (easier than lifting an iron portcullis, but impossible for someone to do, even by taking 20, unless they're already fairly strong). Someone not in the trap should have an easier time at it (maybe DC20), allowing multiple people to work together (using Aid Another) to get a trap off of their friend. For Escape Artist, I'd go with DC30 (just like a pair of manacles . . . very painful manacles). = Calculations: Base CR = 0 Search DC (nonexistent in and of itself, must be separately hidden) = -1 Reflex DC20 = +0 Average Damage (will usually round to 7) = +1 Ad-hoc for extra features (entanglement) = +1 Total CR = 1 Base Cost = 1,000gp Location trigger = +0 Manual reset = +0 Search DC20 = +0 Disable Device DC14 = -600gp Reflex DC20 = +0 Modification for CR = ×1 Total cost = 400gp for the mechanical workings of a trap (with a DC20 Craft (trapmaking) check). = Sound decent? Hell, if not, I'm going to use the damn things now. :D
Myrddin Wyllt 02-26-06, 08:04 PM	Total cost = 400gp for the mechanical workings of a trap (with a DC20 Craft (trapmaking) check). That is absurd. How is even a skilled woodsman ever going to afford such a ridiculous price for a bear trap? I don't doubt you did this very carefully via some rule set, but that is outrageous! Such a device should not cost more than the yearly earnings of a peasant! Either the system you used to calculate that is broken, or your calculations are wrong, but there must be a more acceptable price than 400 gold for a lousy bear trap!
Duration_10_Rounds 02-26-06, 08:32 PM	1d8+ is silly damage! it could KO and pretty much force a peasent to bleed to death in seconds... what type of bares are you hunting? Feindish Dire Bears? Think of a bear trap like a "wheel clamp" for legs that does damage. You have to reduce damage on the basis of its will only hit them in a non vital part of a non vital organ. OK so getting trapped would reduce your movment to next to nothing... I would say 5ft (for medium creatures) a round, no running, no charging, - 20 on swim checks, -10 on ref saves..If the traps chained down then you can only move within the constrains of the chain. If for some reason the victim is immune to pain and bleeding possibly half those penalties making it 10ft(for medium creatures), no run or charge -10 on swim -5 of ref checks. If you move while trapped you take 1d4 subdual and 1 permant damage until you pass out. Real life (level 0 or 1) people have had limbs lopped of by machinery or crushed off in car accidents or under rocks... all of which are simular yet worse than a bear traps effect... so how can u justify 1d8 - 2d6 bear trap damage? The onlyway to make it work is for it to have "status effects" like slowing and bleeding... Otherwise, if you just use high damage, a lvl 10+ barbarian could wear a pair of rusty bear traps like comfy slipper.... Which totaly disregards the abstract nature of the hit point system.... Combat in D&D is supposed to be abstract, having 100 hit points does not mean you could be stabbed 100 times with daggers and still have a 1 in 4 chance to live! That is just obsurd! And in the spirit of this; bear traps should not be about thier damage, because at one end of the scale they can insta-gib a person with one and at the other end a higher level character could wear one as some sort of S&M cod peice and be able to go happily about his buisness.
Ralvuimego 02-26-06, 09:11 PM	Total cost = 400gp for the mechanical workings of a trap (with a DC20 Craft (trapmaking) check). That is absurd. How is even a skilled woodsman ever going to afford such a ridiculous price for a bear trap? I don't doubt you did this very carefully via some rule set, but that is outrageous! Such a device should not cost more than the yearly earnings of a peasant! Either the system you used to calculate that is broken, or your calculations are wrong, but there must be a more acceptable price than 400 gold for a lousy bear trap! I think D_10_R answered this quite nicely. 1d8+ is silly damage! it could KO and pretty much force a peasent to bleed to death in seconds... what type of bares are you hunting? Feindish Dire Bears? Because a peasant wouldn't be expecting, much less hunting, Fiendish Dire Bears. :D
WCH 02-26-06, 10:58 PM	400 gp is roughly the equivalent of $16,000 US (based on $40 per gp, a value I find holds pretty accurately for most conversions in game). That's an awful lot for a bear trap, don't you think? Make it search DC 15 and spot DC 5 if it isn't well hidden. Bear traps are really easy to see, in my experience... you don't need to be looking for them at all, they're pretty obvious. The reason they're effective is because they're designed for use on a creature that doesn't know not to step on them, not because they're designed not to be seen.