Post/Author/DateTime	Post
artemis the hunter 01-24-06, 11:50 AM	How does a character become a Lich? I know about the phylactery and gp/xp costs but how would a character be able to find out about them? not to mention the rituals and whatnot required to make the phylactery. I couldn't find any of this mentioned in the MM so I'm asking here. Also, what do you think of a Lich using preservative to present himself from decaying so normal people won't run and hide when they see him.
Lord Ian Stark 01-24-06, 12:06 PM	<EDIT read the post below mine first, then come back :D .> That is left up to the DM to do. All in all there are probrably numerous ways to make a Lich as different cultures have probrably done so. How do you find out about it in game? Old musky tomes that have the ritual or perhaps the writing on a tomb wall has it. Maybe from the mouth of a Lich himself? Again it's up to the DM and his imagination. How does a Lich hide his vile appearence from those who would take offense? Why, magic of course. Permanent spells that hide the true nature of the slowly rotting abomination. (There bodies may look like they're rotting, but the negative energy replentishes the tissue just like any of the undead. Well besides skeletons as they were raised when there was only bone to begin with.)
High Octane 01-24-06, 12:07 PM	Although Im not sure about the specifics, I heard from a friend it involves imbibing a liquid which is made of pure negative energy. You make a couple checks, or die. Succeed, wake up like a week later as a lich. How you MAKE the concoction (sic) is beyond me. It is worth noting that the process of becoming a lich is described as "unspeakably evil".
Board_Rider 01-24-06, 12:08 PM	I don't have my books with me at the moment so I can only tell of an alternative way to become a lich right now. That would be to take the Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) class for 20 levels. Hello lichdom. As for covering yourself while in this form...how about the Change Self spell?
artemis the hunter 01-24-06, 12:12 PM	Double post.
artemis the hunter 01-24-06, 12:13 PM	Only problem with using spells to hida appearance is that the character interested is a wizard who has taken illusion as one of his prohibited schools. There is some wonderous item that causes preservation of anything indefinately, could he use that instead? I didn't see anything about any liquid or anything. Maybe that's just how your friend would handle it?
TalonofTiamat 01-24-06, 12:14 PM	There's also the Deathmaster from Dragon Magazine/Compendium. 20 levels of that and you become a lich.
DHP 01-24-06, 12:24 PM	You could give the wizard a hat of disguise. It's very cheap.. Especially if you can afford to make a phylactery. 1800 gp. I don't know if there's any specific rules some where to become a lich but I have planned for my characters to break into the last ritual of a human becoming a lich. I have decided that it involves the sacrifice of a person with good alignment (the person that the PCs will be sent to rescue) before the alter in a temple of Nerull while he and other clerics of the temple recite magical rituals and it all happens at full moon. Very cliche maybe but it's an idea.. I haven't thought of what other (unspeakebly evil) rituals that this lich have made to prepare for this final ritual.
celtredleg 01-24-06, 12:24 PM	He is still going to radiate evil. No matter what the appearance. You can find a bunch of dirfferent rituals in different places. Much of it is like mumification. Removeinmg organs and so forth. It really depends on how much detail you need. Most in game rites are pretty much glossed over. I mean when is that last time somebody playing a cleric actualy RPed a worship service?? As noted above, just have him do the research and collect any specific matereals to make it happen.
OctoberRaven 01-24-06, 01:07 PM	An idea I had was to kill an infant and soak a nonmagical object in it's blood, which becomes your phylacetary. When you die, your soul gets kept there until your body regerates and rots to the point where the innards have rotted away and the skin/hair has lost it's color. Torn skin doesn't heal, but even if your body is completely destroyed, the massive negative energy your soul already has built up will magically produce a duplicate body.
muppet_man 01-24-06, 02:28 PM	what do you think of a Lich using preservative to present himself from decaying so normal people won't run and hide when they see him. Who cares, I once played a Lich sorcerer, when he noticed that he was starting to decay, he just ripped all his flesh off (DM made me take a -2 str penalty, but i didn't care) from that moment onwards I was a walking Skeleton in a hawaiian shirt, Straw hat, sunglasses and a cigar, its amazing what you can pull off with a High charisma and no taste :D. Liches have access to powerfull magics, so there are a number of illusions a lich can cast to cover up their true form. As for the process of becoming one, thats totaly upto you as the DM, there are no longer any "official Rituals" other than whats in the MM, just invent one yourself. What ever it is, it will no doubt require a lot of research, effort and cost from your player. Immortality doesn't come cheap
Lord Ian Stark 01-24-06, 02:38 PM	Liches have access to powerfull magics, so there are a number of illusions a lich can cast to cover up their true form. Only problem with using spells to hida appearance is that the character interested is a wizard who has taken illusion as one of his prohibited schools. His hiding it beyond mundane ways may be hard to do. Something he needs to look at.
muppet_man 01-24-06, 02:46 PM	If your player is determind to become a lich, then I would come up with a mini campaign to do so. First he would need to descover a ritual to become a lich, knowledge held in old tomes, scattered in numerous ancient tombs. Once he discovers the process, maybe he needs to gather rare and evil componets, etc. Having a lengthing process where he needs to travel to realy nasty places can be great, especialy if he is hiding his lich ambitions from the rest of the party, trying to come up with bogus reasons why he needs "such and such". I managed to achieve this when i was a player, i even when a few months of being a lich before they even realised that i was undead :D
Millennium 01-24-06, 02:51 PM	Generally speaking, the process of becoming a lich isn't well-defined. Aside from the basic mechanics of creating the phylactery, the rest is left up to the DM. Forgotten Realms gives a little more detail on dracoliches (which must drink a special potion called Dracolich Brew), and I suppose that could be adapted to the basic humanoid lich, but that's your call. Note also that although the SRD says that becoming a lich is an irredeemably evil process, this doesn't hold for all campaign settings. Forgotten Realms has several "good lich" concepts out there, including an elven variety which doesn't use phylacteries. When it comes to hiding one's appearance, the biggest problem is that you can't suppress your aura. A specialist who can't use Illusion spells can't make a hat of disguise, but there are other ways of procuring such a thing. He might commission one from another wizard before undergoing the transformation, for example. Using the hat wouldn't be a problem, because it's not a spell-trigger item.
triss_erventine 01-24-06, 03:17 PM	To become a lich I though it was nessesary for a lich (wizard wishing to become a lich) to trap his soul withing the Phalcrathy sorry for the spelling. Another important fact is that no matter what amount of spells cast upon his person to provent him from rotting unless he is charming people via spells they will run from him or at the very least become extremly uneasy and fearful :D Remeber that even the great Strahd loathed being in the presence of Azalin. Lichs are just plane creep ass central causing even the undeads skin to crawl. Hope this helps Triss_erventine :)
Illion the Red 01-24-06, 03:55 PM	Possible example of a ritual for becoming a Lich: For fourteen years, Zarcolitoth the Archmage has pursued the dark arts of the ultimate Necromancy, all the while keeping his dozen apprentices blissfully unaware of his ultimate goal...Lichdom. After searching the ruins of the once great library of Herod the Insane, the final ritual has been secured, and all stands ready. The chamber is darkened, but the apprentices shuffle in silently, moving to the spots they have memorized through the two years of daily practice. In the darkness, Zarcolitoth smiles, his yellowed teeth hidden in the swirling mists and unnatural darkness. Zarcolitoth slowly opens the circular door in the stone floor and gingerly descends to the silence of the chamber beneath. On cue, the apprentices begin the chanting they have been taught - each with a part of the true chant, but none comprehending the wholeness of it. They voluntarily lower their resistances and allow the magic of the chant to flow through them as they have hundreds of times before. This time things will be different. A chill enters the air of the lower chamber as Zarcolitoth opens the gateway to the negative plane of energy. As the texts had taught him, he uses the specially enchanted candles to focus the energy to a single wisp of smoke. Using the spells he has spent the past decade practicing, he entices the wisp to flow into his phylactery. Now, with everything in place, arms outstretched, he utters the single sylable that he has been anticipating for years. It is but a fragment of one of the words of creation, but it holds power still. The chamber above becomes a slaughterhouse as the aprentices are slain by mystical forces. The scent of death, of blood flowing down into the lower chamber, entices a great flow of negative energy through the portal - almost a sentient portion of the plane itself. The flow is captured in the wisp of smoke and directed to the phylactery as was all of the negative energy that preceeded it. This was it. This was the moment that Zarcolitoth was waiting for. He uttered the final phrase of the ritual - and began the struggle. His soul left his body, entering the phylactery to meet the negative energy entity in a battle...a contest of wills. Zarcolitoth, having been preparing for this moment had all of the advantages of surprise and magical fortification. And yet, he was almost defeated so great was the power of the entity. In the end, however, Zarcolitoth emerged triumphant...and a Lich! Some time later he laughed with glee as he rose from his ritual chamber to see his now undead apprentices forming ranks around him, as deparate for his approval now as they were in life.
Wolghan 01-24-06, 04:18 PM	Actually, there is a ritual to become a lich which is explained in detail in an official book, a 2nd edition book, that is. The Monster Manual from the 2nd edition has it (Actually this is one of the things that dissapointed me from 3E, that the MM didn't have all this info on creatures that went beyond how they attack, ah well, good thing I still have my 2E books). Anyways, here's the ritual: (You'll have to change some spells from 2E to 3E): "In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard. Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When the next moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state. A system shock survival throw is required, with failure indicating an error in the creation of the potion which kills the wizard and renders him forever dead." You'd just have to change a few things, converting the spells from 2E to 3E and replacing the system shock maybe for a fortitude save. Not a high one actually... With a Con of 18+ you'd have a 99% of making the system shock save... So it wasn't really that hard to make. I'd say it could go for a Fortitude Save DC 10-15. Then again, as the paragraph says, it's a potion of extreme toxicity... so I'd make the DC at least 25 (THough it could be more considering all the spells and items a wizard can use to raise his fortitude save, y'know, just so lichdom isn't so easy to attain) Hope this helps.
green_yawgmoth 01-24-06, 04:42 PM	Dicefreaks has a very nice Lich template (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=33) that I use in my games, except I don't require the lich brew to be made by the aspirant and magic items can be used to enhance the skill checks for the ritual. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
artemis the hunter 01-24-06, 09:33 PM	wow thanks for all this you guys! this is going to help immensly, especially that part about hiding it from the party. After all, we do have a paladin. This could get ineresting.... :plotting:
Lord Ian Stark 01-24-06, 10:14 PM	wow thanks for all this you guys! this is going to help immensly, especially that part about hiding it from the party. After all, we do have a paladin. This could get ineresting.... :plotting: Hmm. Outside of hiding his alignment, (Is he evil now and the Paladin is traveling with him?) the Paladin will probrably pick up quick on the fact the guy isn't living anymore. I.E. the smell, the not sleeping, the not eating, being immune to things he shouldn't be etc, etc...
Edymnion 01-24-06, 10:26 PM	1) What makes you think the lich would decay? Nowhere does it ever say that you keep decaying (in fact, the lack of rules for what happens as your skin falls off, combined with how WotC likes to think ugly = charisma penalty, is a good indication that it doesn't happen), and there are no rules for saying when a zombie decays into a skeleton either. And the modules are full of ancient crypts with zombies in them. If they rotted at a normal rate, there would never be a zombie in a crypt more than a dozen years old. So, either the undead do not decay, or they decay at such an extremely slow rate that it wouldn't be a problem within the timeframe of a campaign. 2) Who said that becoming a lich had to be an evil thing? All you are doing is becoming undead. Monsters of Faerun had a whole thing on Good aligned liches (Baelnors, or something like that). Its just that most good characters don't really mind dying, because they know they are going to an afterlife they will enjoy, while evil characters know they are going to punishment, so they try to cheat death. Just because something is mostly done by evil people does not make that thing evil in and of itself.
WCH 01-24-06, 10:34 PM	The Paladin loses his power for accompanying anyone who's even thinking of becoming a lich. A lich and a Paladin in the same party isn't devious, it's ridiculous and stupid. Don't do it -- have one of them leave the party and the player make a new character. Your choice which.
artemis the hunter 01-24-06, 10:35 PM	He's Chaotic Neutral and has decided that basically becoming a Lich could be useful, so he wants to. Considering the preservative he probably wouldn't decay either. It's probably also possible to get some kind of spell that causes an aura of a specific alignment rather than the natural one. Also, the books all say undead don't eat. Nowhere does it say they can't eat if they feel like it. As for not sleeping, he needs eight hours of rest anyway, being a wizard, and sleep is easy enough to fake. Maybe I should impose an extra cost for specific research into not changing alignment when he becomes a lich. EDIT: As I see it, the Paladin only loses his power if he deliberately and knowingly does something evil. Therefore, if the Paladin didn't know his friend was a lich, why should he see a problem with helping him? I know paladins have continuous detect evil, but that only works against evil now doesn't it? Chaotic Neutral Lich FTW!
Lord Ian Stark 01-24-06, 10:42 PM	1) What makes you think the lich would decay? Nowhere does it ever say that you keep decaying (in fact, the lack of rules for what happens as your skin falls off, combined with how WotC likes to think ugly = charisma penalty, is a good indication that it doesn't happen), and there are no rules for saying when a zombie decays into a skeleton either. And the modules are full of ancient crypts with zombies in them. If they rotted at a normal rate, there would never be a zombie in a crypt more than a dozen years old. So, either the undead do not decay, or they decay at such an extremely slow rate that it wouldn't be a problem within the timeframe of a campaign. I'm not sure if I read it in the Libris Mortis or Gary Gygax's Slayers Guide to Undead but undead flesh looks and acts like it rots but the negative energy keeps replenishing it. So zombies will never run out of flesh and oozing soars will continue to ooze. That's why fleshy undead always looks like that. Your typical Lich is evil. Does that mean they all are? No, but the stereotype is there nevertheless.
WCH 01-24-06, 10:43 PM	The process of lichdom is described as "unspeakably evil." It's a total defilement of your body, and a violation of the code of every single god except Nerull and Vecna. You might as well make him research not turning evil from eating infant genitals as an appetizer before he feasts on a cut of dead angel and drinks his brandy distilled from the essense of dying fey. As I see it, the Paladin only loses his power if he deliberately and knowingly does something evil. The paladin description includes associating with someone evil. They don't even need to know the person is evil, but if they consider someone evil an ally, they lose their powers instantly.
artemis the hunter 01-24-06, 10:52 PM	to quote from "pirates" with a slight change: What's written in the books is more a set of guidelines than actual rules. Anyways, to get back on topic... Once a character figures out how to become a lich, how long should it take?
Lord Ian Stark 01-24-06, 10:58 PM	It's probably also possible to get some kind of spell that causes an aura of a specific alignment rather than the natural one. Also, the books all say undead don't eat. Nowhere does it say they can't eat if they feel like it. As for not sleeping, he needs eight hours of rest anyway, being a wizard, and sleep is easy enough to fake. Maybe I should impose an extra cost for specific research into not changing alignment when he becomes a lich. In your game you can do whatever you want. However you have to realize that the Paladin isn't just walking past the guy or spending a few minutes with a Lich next to him, he's traveling with him. He's spending the majority of his time with this guy. He'll notice the differeances. The problem is in RL (real life) the player won't say anything about being "different," so the DM would have to have the characters make spot checks to notice suttle differences in the PC's actions. Like say when a critical blow doesn't seem to phase the Lich, or when he eats but he throws it back up since his body doesn't process the food anymore, or when someone casts invisibility to undead and the Lich character asks where'd he go? I can go all day with when the characters should make a spot check to notice these things but in the end it's up to you. If months of gaming go by and you never gave the PC's a chance to realize the guy was undead they will be pretty mad at you IMO. But it's just a game after all. ;)
Lord Ian Stark 01-24-06, 11:01 PM	Once a character figures out how to become a lich, how long should it take? Depends on the means of how he becomes one. Which method have you picked?
WCH 01-24-06, 11:11 PM	to quote from "pirates" with a slight change: What's written in the books is more a set of guidelines than actual rules. Anyways, to get back on topic... Once a character figures out how to become a lich, how long should it take? Well, granted, your game your rules, just know that the RAW is completely opposed to it. Anyway, how long? Well, crafting generally takes 1 day per 1,000 gp value of the item, and the phylactery costs 120,000 gp, so that's 120 days in the RAW.
vassalich 01-24-06, 11:26 PM	The Van Richten's guide to the Lich had a pretty good description of the basic process. Sadly, I don't have the book on me at the moment, but part of it involves drinking a vile concoction that uses the heart of a sentient being as a base.
Edymnion 01-24-06, 11:39 PM	I'm not sure if I read it in the Libris Mortis or Gary Gygax's Slayers Guide to Undead but undead flesh looks and acts like it rots but the negative energy keeps replenishing it.Eh, I've also read in a book somewhere (I think it was Undead by AEG) that all decay stops the instant the undead ritual is completed for any undead, and the classic half-rotten zombie comes from necromancers having to scavage off of battlefields and out of cemetaries where their selection of corpses is limited to the already decayed, and that if you could raise a body the instant it dies, it would animate as a zombie that looks almost exactly as it did in life. Just depends on which book you read.
green_yawgmoth 01-25-06, 12:12 AM	The paladin description includes associating with someone evil. They don't even need to know the person is evil, but if they consider someone evil an ally, they lose their powers instantly.Wrong. Code of Conduct A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Associates While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good. Ex-Paladins A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities. From what I see, looks like he can associate with an evil lich, so long as the lich never pulls any obviously evil antics in front of the pally and keeps his alignment a secret (undetectable alignment, nondetection). http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
artemis the hunter 01-25-06, 01:49 PM	If the Lich wasn't evil, the Pally could even know he was undead and still associate with him. Must think of way to produce non-evil lich. Thanks again for all your help with this. One more thing: Undead gain skill points more rapidly than wizards. this doesn't apply to a lich gaining wizard levels does it? EDIT: call me an idiot if you will but what does RAW stand for?
green_yawgmoth 01-25-06, 02:41 PM	Rules As Written. And I am completely for the lich being able to retain his alignment, so long as his reason for becoming a lich coincides with his alignment. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Lord Ian Stark 01-25-06, 04:23 PM	I'm feeling creative so here we go ;) The Seven Steps Of Lichdom Creation by Lord Ian Stark The entire process, from start to finish, must be completed within a 20 foot radius of where a sentient creature's life ended within the last 24 hours. The seven pieces for the seven steps - - Creature attempting to become a Lich (Will be referred to as Lichseeker henceforth, he is naked except for a robe which can be enchanted with magic as long as it doesn't stop the transformation of the Lichseeker to become a Lich) - Phylactery created by the Lichseeker - Vile concoction in a potion sized flask (Will be referred to as Toxin henceforth, see below for ingredients) - Host body to use during the ritual (usually a cleric of an evil god or your apprentice) - An "Intelligent" undead witness (Can be any non-mindless undead) - Two mindless undead to hold the body of the Lichseeker in place - Numerically ordered scrolls that have chants and arcane magic to seal the deal The unchangeable and vital order of the seven steps - 1.) Everyone moves to there designated place. The Lichseeker, while holding the toxin, stands on the very spot where the creature that lost it's life recently, drew it's last breath. The two mindless undead take up positions flanking the Lichseeker. The Host body stands 10 feet away facing the Lichseeker and holds the scrolls with chants and arcane magic. The intelligent undead witness, while holding the phylactery, stands on the right of the Host body facing the Lichseeker. 2.) The spells (in order) are casted, Unhallow, Circle of Death, Symbol of Death. It matters not who or what casts these spells as long as they are casted at this time in said order. The Symbol of Death is casted on something nearby and has the "LG creature approaches" trigger activated. 3.) The Lichseeker may cast one spell at this time to help him survive the initial Fort Save of the ingestion of the Toxin without it physically or magically interfering with the process of turning the body into an undead creature. 4.) At exactly midnight the Lichseeker brings the Toxin up to his lips and drinks its fluid contents, chewing on the eyeball as he swallows. A Fort Save is now made with a DC15. Failure means the toxin out right kills the Lichseeker and he becomes a Wheep. (Libris Mortis page 132) The poison tears from the Wheep are the ever present toxin in his corpse. Success, move onto the next step. 5.) The Lichseeker must now cast a version of Magic Jar and have his soul enter his phylactery. He must succeed on a concentration check of DC20 or the spell fails. Each attempt, the DC gets harder. (see Concentration skill pg 70 of the PH) Each round after the initial Fort Save, the Lichseeker loses 1 point of Constitution (Which will also harm his skill check) and takes 2D6 damage as his body is decaying from within in preparation of it being able to exist infinitely. (Make sure you have this spell memorized a few times or on scrolls) Failure to get his soul into his phylactery once again means the toxin out right kills the Lichseeker and he becomes a Wheep. Success, move onto the next step. 6.) The Lichseeker soul now enters the Host body. (Host automatically fails save on purpose) The Lichseeker in the hosts body now begins to read the scrolls and go throughout the steps. (Remember, the Magic Jar spell allows the caster to keep his class so he can read the arcane scrolls even if he's in a clerics body) WARNING: The scrolls must start being read at any time prior to the Lichseekers body dieing. If not, it's Wheep time again. 7.) At 3AM the transformation is complete and the Lichseeker may enter his new (fully created) Lich body. The ordered scrolls take less than two hours to go through so there should be plenty of time to have them read in their entirety prior to 3AM. If not, the Lichseekers body becomes an Undead form of the DM's choice depending on how much of the scrolls were read. As you can see it is very important that this ceremony not be interrupted and the Lichseeker should prepare greatly before attempting it. Toxin ingredients - One potion flask filled to the stopper with a boiled harmony of seven drops from each of the following poisons; arsenic, black adder venom, black lotus extract, bloodroot, bloodwine, boneshard paste, carrion crawler brain juice, celestial essence, dragon bile, gravedust, liquid mortality, purple worm poison, scorpion venom, sunlight oil, and wyvern poison. Set the liquids to boil (I would take precautions as not to touch or breath this in during creation) and cast Gentle repose on an eyeball and plop it into the finished potion when it cools. All the poisons actually attack each other and become one DC 15 Fort save. However the ingestion of this potion will either kill you outright (failed save) or within a few rounds (succesful save) as it decays the body from within, until it dies.
WCH 01-25-06, 06:25 PM	I'd make the Host be Good aligned as a requirement, and make the poison mixture use Terran Brandy as a base, but that's just me. (that is, the magic of the Terran Brandy is what causes the poisons to interect in such an unusual way) Also, why have the symbol of death activate if any LG approaches? Why not just "any non-evil?" It shouldn't go off if a Cleric of Pelor or St. Cuthbert show up? Other than that, sounds good. :)
green_yawgmoth 01-25-06, 07:44 PM	I'd go for extra careful and just make it "any creature". Why let the LN undead hunter of the NE sorcerer who just doesn't like you go by unkilled? Also, I like the idea of adding terran brandy in there. Maybe instead of celestial essence, add in red dragon blood (drug from S:CoT) instead? Makes more sense to me. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Lord Ian Stark 01-25-06, 11:03 PM	I like the Terran Brandy idea. I have no clue what it is and what book it's in, but it sounds like something I was missing to create the potions wierdness. The LG ward isn't supposed to do anything besides keep away LG peeps. It's more of a cosmetic design from the ancient text. It also stops any one LG character from becoming a Lich as they will make it go off and it needs to be active for the ceremony to work. Think of the Symbol of Death as important and useless as ceremonial armor worn at weddings. Feel free to change any of the ceremony as I made it up off the top of my head earlier. Think of it as a base idea.
WCH 01-25-06, 11:30 PM	Terran Brandy is easily the evillest alcohol ever. "Distilled from the essense of dying fey," confers magical power but is somewhat toxic, addictive, and its method of production is heartless at best. It can be found in a lot of places, I think... I remember there was some in Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind, and I think I've seen it in at least one other game. In D&D it's in Book of Vile Darkness, although possibly somewhere else, too. Costs 500 gp for a glass, is mildly addictive and gives a +2 alchemical bonus to chaster level for 1d20+20 minutes, but causes 2 points of Con damage, and you get 1 Con drain if you overdose (taking a second drink within 24 hours). @Green Exactly. "Any non-evil" would cover it just fine, although you'd still have the problem of evil rivals, or people best described as "lesser evils," who are evil but still think Lichdom is way too evil. Lord Ian makes a good point about it being a ceremonial frivolty, though.
artemis the hunter 01-26-06, 01:02 PM	Remember. I need a way to make a non-evil lich. Somehow I think Terran Brandy might be more than somewhat evil. All these ideas are really useful though so keep posting them.
Lord Ian Stark 01-26-06, 01:10 PM	Remember. I need a way to make a non-evil lich. Yes sir. If you look at my ritual you will notice that the only actual alignment not allowed to become a Lich in that fasion would be a LG character. A NG and a CG would have A LOT of explaining to do but Neutral characters would be just fine.
artemis the hunter 01-26-06, 01:32 PM	Your ritual is a good starting point. I think I'm going to start swapping out evil things for not so evil things and see what I come up with.
OctoberRaven 01-26-06, 03:10 PM	I like the Terran Brandy idea. I have no clue what it is and what book it's in, but it sounds like something I was missing to create the potions wierdness. BoVD.
Milandros 01-26-06, 03:36 PM	I'm not sure I like the non-evil lich idea, but if you want neutral or good aligned undead in your game, that's up to you. Personally I feel it spoils the classical idea of a lich, but the DM has a right to change the rules for his game, as long as he's open and consistent (i.e. this isn't a change only for this PC). From what you've written, it seems that your player has picked up on the "cool abilities" he can get rather than the usual desire to cheat death by passing into unlife. There's a cost to getting cool abilities, it doesn't come for free in game terms. One very important thing to remember - vital in fact - is that the lich template is a +4 level adjustment. Unless you would allow the paladin player a chance to undergo a holy ritual that automatically gave him +4 paladin levels and any other player to do the same, you shouldn't necessarily allow this. I'd ask the player to not take any class levels for 4 levels, then take them all at once as the lich template. If you're feeling really, really generous then he could store up two levels of xp without gaining a level, get the template, then spend the next two levels of xp "paying" for it. The third option would be to split the lich template into 4 "levels" of increasing ability. The PC would be slowly transforming as his humanity and life drained away (and as the player gained levels). All the lich abilities would have to be broken into 4 levels, with the most powerful resistances and abilities gained at the end. Stat advances and so on would be broken up evenly (6 points becomes +1 for 1st level, +2 for second, +1 for third, +2 for fourth). I have a suspicion, possibly unfairly, that your player may think again when he realises that the template means he has to not take the next four class levels instead.
artemis the hunter 01-26-06, 03:55 PM	Well, another thing is in the backstory for the character his village was raided and he was the sole survivor. Now he's trying to find a way not to die, as well as picking up some neat abilities as a bonus. Basically the character wants to try to ressurect the town, but he's not a cleric, doesn't want to be a cleric, and needs a long time to figure out how to bring everyone back without using several hundred wishes. Besides, Liches are awesome.
Mordin 01-26-06, 04:05 PM	Also, what do you think of a Lich using preservative to present himself from decaying so normal people won't run and hide when they see him. I have run into the same problem, Illusion being one of my prohibited schools. Some spells I've asked about and thought of; Gentle Repose, Nondetection, Alter Self (with your own image) and Undetectable Alignment (cleric). Also as far as scaring everyone with fear and all, is a power that in my reasoning can be controlled by the Lich. But that’s how we play, any creature can voluntarily suppress power(s) like these.
Lord Ian Stark 01-26-06, 04:57 PM	Alter Self (with your own image) Interesting. A DM can allow this 2nd level spell to be permanent quite easily IMO. Otherwise the 10min/level will go fast. Alter Self Transmutation Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D) You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. Can someone explain to me how I can change into myself? Besides being schizophrenic of course.
JulesCARV 01-26-06, 05:57 PM	Quintessence would keep a body from decaying, if you could find a friendly Shaper psion. Unguent of Timelessness wouldn't preserve a body indefinitely, but would slow the process down to 1/365th the ordinary rate. Lich's evilness is something that's a bit of a sticky issue. With, say, vampires or ghouls, it's easy to see why they're bad. They drink people's blood and eat people. Their unlife is other people's death. What's wrong with being a lich, though? I don't think "it's intrinsically wrong" is a good answer. I think that the right thing for a DM to do, though, is not to allow good and neutral liches, but to make up something that liches must do to sustain themselves that makes them evil. Maybe they feed off of pain and fear, and must inflict suffering on others to survive. Maybe a lich always needs to have a person in the basement being tortured to death. I don't know. Anyway, though, I admit that the current, "liches are evil, but for no apparent reason" situation is bad, but I think it should be changed to "liches are evil for a very obvious reason," not "liches aren't evil at all." I don't think there's anything evil about wanting to extend your life, or about wanting to become more powerful, but I think the "anything can have any alignment" approach detracts from the D&D feel. If you want to be a good or neutral-aligned person who lives forever, you could become a Undying/Deathless, as in Eberron, which are superficially like the undead, but are good (they use positive energy, not negative energy, for power. Thus "cure" wounds actually cure them and "inflict" wounds actually hurt them). Actually, deathless/undying are limited to the elves of Aerenal, but you could work with some variant lich concept (I don't think all lich-like things must be evil: just bona fide liches. Too much has been invested in that idea to just abandon it.) Or you could make contact with druids, come to an agreement, and when you're getting old, you could die and get one of them to cast "reincarnate" on you. Oops, you reincarnated as a kobold. Oh well. Hope for you're a bugbear next time. Heck, you could become a ghost, who won't rest easy until your village is brought back to life, and use spells like mage hand to manipulate the real world (I thnk).
aazan 01-26-06, 07:11 PM	You might as well make him research not turning evil from eating infant genitals as an appetizer before he feasts on a cut of dead angel and drinks his brandy distilled from the essense of dying fey. HAHA! Thanks for the laugh. :D